The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[justbyfaith]

but the initial belief was not a choice.

For me it was definitely a choice.

I think that looking at all of the circumstances and factors involved, I could not have made any other...but it was a choice nonetheless.

If one or more of the circumstances or factors had been any different, my choice might have been different.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I do believe Him, but I know I did not choose to believe Him.
I choose many things of God now, but the initial belief was not a choice.

Do you believe the only way a person comes to God is if God makes them-- no choice involved in any way?

 

[tabletalk]

Do you believe the only way a person comes to God is if God makes them-- no choice involved in any way?

God first changes a spiritually dead person's heart to love Him.
Then that person comes to the Lord in many different ways, I think.
For me, I was reading a verse where Jesus was speaking in one of the Gospels, and I simply believed Him.
The only other thing I can remember is that I knew this belief did not come from me, so to speak. Nothing led up to it, such as Bible study, reading theology or debating with a Christian. This belief was completely new, and foreign to me. And, I even assumed it would go away soon.
That was 30 years ago.
Thanks for asking.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Lucifer once appeared to Helena Petrovna Blavatsky and Alice A. Bailey as "Dwal Kuhl the Tibetan master" and convinced them of the "truths" which became the charter for so many organizations like their Theosophical Society - that only those Lucifer selects for "illumination" will receive eternal riches and they referred derogatorily to their own initiates as having "the little wills of men". Sounds EXACTLY like you Calvinists.

Coming from you and your kind, I consider this insulting blasphemous humbug a complement and assurance of God's grace in the LORD JESUS CHRIST OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

God first changes a spiritually dead person's heart to love Him.
Then that person comes to the Lord in many different ways, I think.
For me, I was reading a verse where Jesus was speaking in one of the Gospels, and I simply believed Him.
The only other thing I can remember is that I knew this belief did not come from me, so to speak. Nothing led up to it, such as Bible study, reading theology or debating with a Christian. This belief was completely new, and foreign to me. And, I even assumed it would go away soon.
That was 30 years ago.
Thanks for asking.

But did you have the choice to accept or reject that seed of faith God planted in your heart?

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

I'm comparing the philosophies of Calvinists and Luciferians, not their individuals themselves, comprendo?

For what would anyone want to understand you and your "VAIN PHILOSOPHIES OF THE WORLD"? I asked you for SCRIPTURE for your humanist sovereign free-will fantasies, and what have you answered with? With NO Scripture and only libellous blasphemous bull-dust BRAGGING. Your mastery of the philosophies is extra boring.
C. H. Spurgeon, "The hem of Christ's garment is better than all the robes of philosophy."

 

[Laish]

For me it was definitely a choice.

I think that looking at all of the circumstances and factors involved, I could not have made any other...but it was a choice nonetheless.

If one or more of the circumstances or factors had been any different, my choice might have been different.

Question do you believe that those circumstances you mentioned were pure chance ?
Blessings
Bill

 

[justbyfaith]

Question do you believe that those circumstances you mentioned were pure chance ?
Blessings
Bill

See Ecclesiastes 9:11.

 

[Phoneman777]

The real issue is this: None of us has presented a philosophy, and have given Biblical evidence instead.

Your entire free will belief system is nothing more than philosophy and is not found in Scripture unless one sees it stems from Genesis 3:1 in the Garden.

You do realize, do you not, that your teachings came from Charles Finney? Are you aware of what his teachings were called, and that they aren't Scriptural? (You can Google it real quick and act like you do.)

In everything you say, it is an attempt for you to sound intelligent, philosophical, and it is nothing but the flesh, pride, your ability, but it never once gives glory to God -- its focus is on you.

Yet you can't back up your philosophy with contextual Scripture.

Ever wonder why?

Yes, you present Biblical philosophy, I present it, everyone presents it. Look up the word. Not trying to sound intelligent, just trying to expose your philosophy as comparable to Luciferian religion in the hopes that you might begin to question why two things that should not sound anything alike sound so similar.

 

[Enoch111]

I do believe Him, but I know I did not choose to believe Him.
I choose many things of God now, but the initial belief was not a choice.

Then you believed under duress (according to your thinking, which means that you are the exception). But since no one believes under duress or compulsion (otherwise it would be a fake believing to avoid further distress, such as the Jews converting under the Roman Catholic Church), then you did indeed choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and repent. But if you did not fulfil those criteria, then according to Scripture you are still in your sins.

Now please note carefully this exchange (Acts 16:30,31)
And [the Phillipian jailer] brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

1. Did Paul tell this man that he had to do absolutely nothing?

2. Or did Paul give him an honest and simple answer, which lies at the heart of the Gospel?

3. Did the jailer have to make a decision and a choice at that very moment?

4. And did he and his household make the right choice?

Here's the answer: And he [the jailer] took them [Paul and Silas] the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house. (vv 33,34)

Just like the Ethiopian eunuch, this man and his household believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (therefore believed God) and were immediately baptized. There is not a single instance in Scripture where a sinner did not have to make a choice and a decision to repent and believe on Christ (or walk away from Christ).

 

[SovereignGrace]

But did you have the choice to accept or reject that seed of faith God planted in your heart?

When someone dies from a heart attack and they are revived via CPR, what did they do in receiving that CPR? Nothing, as they were dead and unable to respond. That's how it is with us. God gave us a spiritual CPR, quickening us to life, and in turn, we wrapped our arms around Him and embracing Him for giving us our life. The dead can do nothing in this but receive it.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

When someone dies from a heart attack and they are revived via CPR, what did they do in receiving that CPR? Nothing, as they were dead and unable to respond. That's how it is with us. God gave us a spiritual CPR, quickening us to life, and in turn, we wrapped our arms around Him and embracing Him for giving us our life. The dead can do nothing in this but receive it.

I'm going to respectfully commpetleyl disagree with you on every point here.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

"Whosoever', my favorite word in all of Scripture

And yet it is not in John 3

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'm going to respectfully commpetleyl disagree with you on every point here.

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,[Ephesians 2:1]

'Dead' in this verse is νεκροὺς which is 'nekrous' which means...

1. properly
2. one that has breathed his last, lifeless
3. deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
4. destitute of life, without life, inanimate
5. metaph.
6. spiritually dead
   1. destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
   2. inactive as respects doing right
7. destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

You can disagree with me, but its not me, but the bible, that you're in disagreement with.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,[Ephesians 2:1]

'Dead' in this verse is νεκροὺς which is 'nekrous' which means...

1. properly
2. one that has breathed his last, lifeless
3. deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
4. destitute of life, without life, inanimate
5. metaph.
6. spiritually dead
   1. destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
   2. inactive as respects doing right
7. destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

You can disagree with me, but its not me, but the bible, that you're in disagreement with.

SovereignGrace, if Mike becomes a Christian, did Mike or Mike's will have anything to do with it?
No, if you say "no, Mike's will has nothing to do with it because Mike has no will"
Now, if Bob becomes a atheist, did Bob or Bob's will have anything to do with it?
By that same logic, Bob is not to be blamed for become an atheist, because Bob has no will.

 

[SovereignGrace]

SovereignGrace, if Mike becomes a Christian, did Mike or Mike's will have anything to do with it?
No, if you say "no, Mike's will has nothing to do with it because Mike has no will"
Now, if Bob becomes a atheist, did Bob or Bob's will have anything to do with it?
By that same logic, Bob is not to be blamed for become an atheist, because Bob has no will.

If Bob becomes an atheist, he has to blame Bob and his fallen heart for becoming an atheist.

If Mike becomes a Christian, Mike will thank God for saving him.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

If Bob becomes an atheist, he has to blame Bob and his fallen heart for becoming an atheist.

If Mike becomes a Christian, Mike will thank God for saving him.

A person who lacks freewill cannot be blamed for what happens.
Therefore, Bob is not be be blamed for being an atheist.

 

[SovereignGrace]

A person who lacks freewill cannot be blamed for what happens.
Therefore, Bob is not be be blamed for being an atheist.

What part of slave to sin do you not grasp? I am not being snarky, but asking you this legit question.

“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth."[Matthew 6:24] Here we see the Christ saying there are two masters, Satan and God. The lost are enslaved to sin and Satan. Their wills are not free at all, but enslaved to sin and Satan.

Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."[John 8:34] Here the Christ is talking about the lost. Again, the lost are enslaved to sin and Satan, and this includes their wills.

knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;[Romans 6:6] What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.[Romans 6:15-18] Even after salvation has taken place, no one has free will even then. They have become Christos Dolous, slaves to Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

And yet it is not in John 3

Are you kidding me? It is specifically found in verse 16. You think that such an obvious lie would ever be believed by anyone? John 3:16 is one of the most quoted verses in all of scripture.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

What part of slave to sin do you not grasp? I am not being snarky, but asking you this legit question.
.

The part where Calvinist logic is inconistant.
Logically: If Bob lacks freewill, then he is not to be blamed for being an atheist or any sins he commits.
If order for Bob to be blamed he must have had freewill. Else it's like blaming a dead body for falling down to gravity.