Biblical Foreknowledge
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John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
I think that the issue is some Calvinists rather than the doctrine itself. Calvinism was designed to address a view (a of predestination as it pertains to salvation) that arose within Beza’s articulation of the topic. But Calvinism has grown to be a primary and central understanding of the gospel itself. This is where it fails. It’s like using a hammer to chop down a tree.
I’m not opposed to Calvinism as it pertains to divine providence. In that regard, I am a Calvinist. But Calvinism is not my religion.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I will make this point clear.
It is above my pay grade to say that anyone is going to hell.
Judge the sin...not the sinner.
There was a time when the Mafia was predominately Catholic. (It does not matter if they were Baptist.)
I am sure there were good people in the Mafia.
But if I were to meet one, I would tell them to flee the clutches of Satan.
There is no possibility that universal predestination can be called good, fair, or godly.
It is contrary to logic and invalidates all levels of Christianity and slanders God.
It is above my pay grade to say that anyone is going to hell.
Judge the sin...not the sinner.
There was a time when the Mafia was predominately Catholic. (It does not matter if they were Baptist.)
I am sure there were good people in the Mafia.
But if I were to meet one, I would tell them to flee the clutches of Satan.
There is no possibility that universal predestination can be called good, fair, or godly.
It is contrary to logic and invalidates all levels of Christianity and slanders God.
]
You are speaking about a large topic of study.
The OP. deals with a small but important part of that study. It offers verses and an explanation of those verses.
A good study of scripture brings understanding.
Work through it. If you find things that do not seem biblical, offer some scriptural correction.
Predestination of persons is a biblical teaching. Every Christian believes in predestination.
rom8;
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
What you're saying makes no sense.
In the calvinist theology, GOD CHOOSES WHOM WILL BE SAVED.
So what EXACTLY is the reason to preach, witness, send missionaries, etc.?
What difference does it make if someone HEARS the gospel message or not?
God has always been ABLE to let Himself be known to man.
Romans 1:19-20
Man has always been able to CHOOSE God.
By YOUR theology, preaching or witnessing or proclaiming the gospel makes no sense at all.
And you say man is responsible for believing.
HOW??
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
The Jehovah's Witnesses twist the scriptures to formulate that Christ is not a God.
Sometimes you have to look at the logic and spirit of the scripture to know the truth.
I can give you a scripture that indicates that you have to hate your father and mother to his disciple.
I don't recommend including it in your religion.
Sometimes you have to look at the logic and spirit of the scripture to know the truth.
I can give you a scripture that indicates that you have to hate your father and mother to his disciple.
I don't recommend including it in your religion.
I understand your point, but that is NOT compatible free will.
The fact is not that God is speaking to your heart and makes you understand that HIS way is better...
The fact is that God MAKES YOU,,,FORCES YOU,,,CHANGES YOUR MIND/HEART so that YOU WILL WANT what He wants.
There is a big difference between the two scenarios.
I hope you see the difference.
Your example is just outside influence...a convincing.
Compatible free will is determinism....it's God controlling your choice.
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
I do see the difference. I believe that God is a God of means, so I think that the first scenario (God speaking to one's heart and persuading one that His way is better) is the work of God in the heart of the lost which brings us to salvation. It is not a violation of one's will, but rather a changing of it in that this better way is demonstrated. One must still choose belief in this better way and choose to repent from that old way.
I see two types of Calvinists here. Some would say that God recreates those He elects so that they will believe (like that old movie..invasion of the body snatchers). God violates man's will and as Creator God has that right. Others believe that God uses other people to persuade. This was Spurgeon's argument. God sends a friend who tells you about the gospel, perhaps not for the first time, but you are persuaded of the gospel's truth and you choose to "come and drink".
GodsGrace,
oh boy...we better take a look
In biblical theology, which a biblical Calvinist would believe....God does elect a multitude of dead , guilty, sinners, as the object of his saving love.
God chooses the means to be used to convert sinners, as well as the sinners who are the object of His saving love.
They will be saved by those means of grace, prayer, preaching, the teaching of the word of God.
rom10;
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?
and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
This knowledge both by creation and conscience in Romans 1,2, lets men know there is a God and they are responsible.
It does not teach them about Jesus or the cross however.
psalm14;
14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Let me ask you a questionGG, what happened to Adam at the fall?
Did he die, or was he only wounded?
If he died, it takes a supernatural work of God to enable him to repent and believe. That is what Calvinists believe because the bible teaches it.
The thing is , it is 100% the opposite. Knowing that God has elected a great multitude, and has ordained the members of His body to be used to reach the lost, it is very exciting. Every person I meet is a sinner. God saves sinners! So every new person I engage with is a potential person God intends to have me present the gospel to faithfully;2cor.2
14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
You offered two of the sections of scripture already, romans 1-3, acts 17:30
oh boy...we better take a look
In biblical theology, which a biblical Calvinist would believe....God does elect a multitude of dead , guilty, sinners, as the object of his saving love.
This has been answered before, but in case you missed it.
God chooses the means to be used to convert sinners, as well as the sinners who are the object of His saving love.
They will be saved by those means of grace, prayer, preaching, the teaching of the word of God.
rom10;
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?
and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
This knowledge both by creation and conscience in Romans 1,2, lets men know there is a God and they are responsible.
It does not teach them about Jesus or the cross however.
No He cannot choose God. This is the root of much error in the Church.
psalm14;
14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Let me ask you a questionGG, what happened to Adam at the fall?
Did he die, or was he only wounded?
If he died, it takes a supernatural work of God to enable him to repent and believe. That is what Calvinists believe because the bible teaches it.
The thing is , it is 100% the opposite. Knowing that God has elected a great multitude, and has ordained the members of His body to be used to reach the lost, it is very exciting. Every person I meet is a sinner. God saves sinners! So every new person I engage with is a potential person God intends to have me present the gospel to faithfully;2cor.2
14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
You offered two of the sections of scripture already, romans 1-3, acts 17:30
Grailhunter,
God is not going to send the sin to hell but all sinners who are outside of Jesus.
If a person is not In Christ, they are going to hell,
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
GH, we cannot see anyone's heart, but we can see what they post. if they are outside of Christ they are in danger.
What do you mean by this phrase? I do not see it in the bible.
God is not going to send the sin to hell but all sinners who are outside of Jesus.
If a person is not In Christ, they are going to hell,
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
GH, we cannot see anyone's heart, but we can see what they post. if they are outside of Christ they are in danger.
What do you mean by this phrase? I do not see it in the bible.
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
Very true. And religion does not save – salvation is in Christ alone.
I think it is important to remember that those we refer to as “Christians” are those who profess Christ and walk in a Christ-likeness (the term “little-Christs”). Scripture tells us that those who are Christ’s disciples are known by their love for one another.
How does that person respond in the face of adversity (when confronted with situations that are not favorable to that person)? It is easy to be kind to people when they are “on our side”. It is Christ-like to love our enemies. That is how we can know one is a Christian (that one is imitating Christ).
BUT I do not think that we can truly know the heart of another person. Perhaps that person is full of hate, but God is discipline that person (he or she is “kicking against the goads”). I don’t think that we are called to make a judgment on another’s salvation.
I do believe that everything is predestined (at least based on omniscience), but that’s another topic (and a philosophical one).
If by that you mean everything is predetermined by God, you would be making Him responsible for all the sin and evil in the world. Which is obviously false.
Omniscience means that everything is KNOWN by God from the very beginning.
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
What I mean is that I cannot separate several things without coming up empty. I’ll leave the dividing, the micro-doctrine, to those of you more proficient that I. Here is how I see it:
I believe that God is omniscient, so I believe that God knew who would and would not be saved. Everything is predestined to unfold as God knows it will occur. What is let out here is the idea that God causes these things to occur or predetermines that they should happen (the difference between “decree” and “ordain”, for example).
But then we have the problem of Creation. If God is omniscient and creates then God has created a predetermined world (a world predestined to live out it’s life as God has determined by the act of creation that it would).
Whether we say that God decreed this to occur, or that God ordained that in occurring it would fit in His plan, or if foreknowledge is relationship based as opposed to a pre-knowledge.....it's all the same in the end. Everything is predestined to occur as God knows it will occur and God created knowing exactly how things would unfold.
How I handle the idea (above is, as I indicated, philosophical) is by accepting that God chose me from the foundation of the earth with a purpose prepared beforehand. At the same time, my salvation necessitated my repentance and belief (my choosing).
The *how* here is very important though.
Did it happen XYZ because God forced it to be that way?
Or did a mortal act (of their own choosing) to make XYZ happen?
JonC
Looks like dancing around the issue going on...God did not purpose anything? He did elect a multitude ? or He did not?
Was he just a spectator JonC? Or Did God before the world was Elect a multitude of individuals and at a point in time draw them savingly to faith?
Everyone believes God is omniscient....But as per the OP. WHOM did He foreknow JonC?
Looks like dancing around the issue going on...God did not purpose anything? He did elect a multitude ? or He did not?
Was he just a spectator JonC? Or Did God before the world was Elect a multitude of individuals and at a point in time draw them savingly to faith?
Both of your scenarios up above employ free will and this is not calvinistic.
There are different types of calvinists but the 5 point calvinist does NOT believe in free will AT ALL.
If one believes in free will, it kills calvinism and debunks the entire theology.
I'm not going to debate this since we're not really saying anything different.
If Spurgeon believed that one chooses to come and drink....then he had dents in his belief. And frankly, I've never heard of this.
Spurgeon said of free will:
It has already been proved beyond all controversy that free-will is nonsense.
source: Free-Will - A Slave
JD22,
Good question, lets look at scripture.here is what God created;
Gen 1:31
31 And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
God created everything, man included...very Good.
It is the fall into sin and death that is the problem, scripture says all died in Adam
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
there it is...romans 3:23 says all sinned at that one point in time, the fall
Good question, lets look at scripture.here is what God created;
Gen 1:31
31 And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
God created everything, man included...very Good.
It is the fall into sin and death that is the problem, scripture says all died in Adam
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
there it is...romans 3:23 says all sinned at that one point in time, the fall
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