Biblical Foreknowledge

[Jane_Doe22]

JD22,



Good question, lets look at scripture.here is what God created;
Gen 1:31
31 And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

God created everything, man included...very Good.

It is the fall into sin and death that is the problem, scripture says all died in Adam
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

there it is...romans 3:23 says all sinned at that one point in time, the fall

Ok, so you believe that God created the world & fruit, all the dammed people in there, all the evils things they do.... and called it good?

If God creates a man without the ability to be anything but evil, then God created evil and is responsible for everything that evil person does.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

GG, yes! FREEWILL A SLAVE ...IS VERY CLEAR AND THE MAINSTREAM OF TRUE CALVINIST THOUGHT

 

[epostle]

Both of your scenarios up above employ free will and this is not calvinistic.
There are different types of calvinists but the 5 point calvinist does NOT believe in free will AT ALL.

If one believes in free will, it kills calvinism and debunks the entire theology.

I'm not going to debate this since we're not really saying anything different.
If Spurgeon believed that one chooses to come and drink....then he had dents in his belief. And frankly, I've never heard of this.

Spurgeon said of free will:
It has already been proved beyond all controversy that free-will is nonsense.

source: Free-Will - A Slave

55 Critiques of John Calvin: Introduction & Master List

 

[GodsGrace]

What I mean is that I cannot separate several things without coming up empty. I’ll leave the dividing, the micro-doctrine, to those of you more proficient that I. Here is how I see it:

I believe that God is omniscient, so I believe that God knew who would and would not be saved. Everything is predestined to unfold as God knows it will occur. What is let out here is the idea that God causes these things to occur or predetermines that they should happen (the difference between “decree” and “ordain”, for example).

But then we have the problem of Creation. If God is omniscient and creates then God has created a predetermined world (a world predestined to live out it’s life as God has determined by the act of creation that it would).

Whether we say that God decreed this to occur, or that God ordained that in occurring it would fit in His plan, or if foreknowledge is relationship based as opposed to a pre-knowledge.....it's all the same in the end. Everything is predestined to occur as God knows it will occur and God created knowing exactly how things would unfold.

How I handle the idea (above is, as I indicated, philosophical) is by accepting that God chose me from the foundation of the earth with a purpose prepared beforehand. At the same time, my salvation necessitated my repentance and belief (my choosing).

Decree:
To make a decree is to have an authoritative order having the force of law. It could be the judgment of a court of equity as well as being an official order, edict, or decision, as that of a church, government, court, or by God and is something that is or seems to be foreordained and is unbreakable.

source: What Does Decree Mean? A Biblical Definition of Decree


Ordain:
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
1. (v. t.) To set in order; to arrange according to rule; to regulate; to set; to establish.
2. (v. t.) To regulate, or establish, by appointment, decree, or law; to constitute; to decree; to appoint; to institute.
3. (v. t.) To set apart for an office; to appoint.
4. (v. t.) To invest with ministerial or sacerdotal functions; to introduce into the office of the Christian ministry, by the laying on of hands, or other forms; to set apart by the ceremony of ordination.

Source as above


Frankly, JC, I don't understand the difference between Decree and Ordain
and yet you leave the micro doctrines to us!

However, if I've understood what you're saying above, I do believe it's correct.
God may not DECREE for any one specific thing to happen,,,but He certainly ALLOWS it to happen.

Some may say this is the same as CAUSING it to happen,,,which I would not agree with...however if God is Almightly and the creator of all, then, yes, we can say that He does have to allow for things to happen since nothing can move without Him.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Jane_Doe22,

Ok, so you believe that God created the world & fruit, all the dammed people in there, all the evils things they do.... and called it good?

jANE did you see that phrase"all the damned people" in Gen 1:31?
No , you did not. Why do you insert that? God tells us exactly what happens.
theologically it is spoken of as Federal headship;
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

If you want to understand it, you have to slow down and actually look.
Adam was the head...God commanded him before he formed EVE. She was utterly deceived by the serpent,[no woman preachers] but Adam failed to act in his role as a proper headship of the human race...he fell, bringing Sin and death to all of the human race.
That is why Jesus comes as the second Adam, the last Adam, but he does not fail.
Any who are drawn to saving faith IN Christ, will be saved, those who remain in the first Adam, perish.

If God creates a man without

No Gen 1:31 man was created with, but was untested
No, the fall brings spiritual death to all mankind. Do not blame God for man's sin.
God told him, dying thou shalt surely die.

the ability to be anything but evil, then God created evil and is responsible for everything that evil person does.

Do not blame man for satans and man's sin and rebellion.

 

[GodsGrace]

If by that you mean everything is predetermined by God, you would be making Him responsible for all the sin and evil in the world. Which is obviously false.

Omniscience means that everything is KNOWN by God from the very beginning.

The above is correct....and knowing does not cause anything to happen.
However, we must admit that if God is Almightly, He would be able to STOP
anything evil/bad from happening and He does not. This is a major problem with Christianity...trying to understand why He does not.

However, in some way ALLOWING something to happen is not the same in the spiritual world as CAUSING it to happen.

Nothing "moves" without God's permission.

 

[GodsGrace]

55 Critiques of John Calvin: Introduction & Master List

Great link E.
I've read some of the Institutes but there's really just too much.
However, what I have read is rather disconcerting to say the least.
We can be comforted by the fact the the ECFs did NOT believe in any type
of predestination, and in the end, even Augustine didn't. Although, he was pretty much alone in his beliefs anyway and I've come to understand that MAYBE he was very much respected by his piers because he was able to stand up to many heresies as no one else could.

 

[GodsGrace]

GG, yes! FREEWILL A SLAVE ...IS VERY CLEAR AND THE MAINSTREAM OF TRUE CALVINIST THOUGHT

Don't be so excited !
I don't agree with calvinist theology.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

jANE did you see that phrase"all the damned people" in Gen 1:31?
No , you did not. Why do you insert that?

I specifically asked about the damned people and you answered with Gen 1:31.

That is why Jesus comes as the second Adam, the last Adam, but he does not fail.

Any who are drawn to saving faith IN Christ, will be saved, those who remain in the first Adam, perish.

Again, I'm talking specifically about damned people.

No Gen 1:31 man was created with, but was untested
No, the fall brings spiritual death to all mankind. Do not blame God for man's sin.
God told him, dying thou shalt surely die.
Do not blame man for satans and man's sin and rebellion.

Here, let's run with an example: in the year 1963 "Bob" the serial killer was born and spent his entire life loving sin and doing all sorts of evil things. Of course, in Calvinism Bob doesn't have free will to do good and Bob is not among the elect.


Now, who created Bob?

 

[GodsGrace]

The *how* here is very important though.
Did it happen XYZ because God forced it to be that way?
Or did a mortal act (of their own choosing) to make XYZ happen?

1. A free will choosing of a mortal act caused something to happen.
2. God allowed it.

This is the best we can do JD.
If this is not true, then we have to accept a God that created everything,
and then just left us to our own doings. Jesus taught, instead, a personal God involved somehow with our daily lives.

 

[GodsGrace]

I disagree. Those who redefine divine omniscience to mean that God knows all that there is to know at a given time but not necessarily future events deny the traditional definition of omniscience as it applies to God. ”Who”, Anthony. “Who did God foreknow” and “Whom God foreknew”. Think of it this way, if you could substitute “him” then you can use “whom” (you can always use “who”, and that’s a safer bet). The passage deals with God causing all things to work for the good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purposes. Then we go to verse 29 (we can’t take the verses out of context). The subject is God foreknowing those who love God. God foreknew, called, justified, and glorified those who love Him. It is not a proof text against foreknowledge being pre-knowledge, if that is what you think you are demonstrating. In this passage? No. But we do find that God created us in Christ Jesus for good works which He has prepared before hand that we walk in them. This is not a “smoking gun”, of course, but it at least demonstrates God’s design for us to walk in the Light, to love one another, and to do kingdom work. This depends. God chose a people. The elect are most often described as a people group. I believe that this by necessity means God chose individuals at least in the context that those in the group can look back to an origin in God’s love. But the language itself in Scripture does not rule out other interpretations like corporate election. No, “in the beginning God created…”This is a logical fallacy (and liberty taken with Scripture. The bible does not say “before the world God choose a multitude of individuals”. Here is where we HAVE to be honest with Scripture and lean not on our own understanding but on what is actually contained in God’s Word. I believe that God choose a multitude of individuals in a way – but in another way, an omniscient God does not “choose”. So there is always an issue when you start with an idea and then go back to support every iota of detail. This gets even more complicated as you base your concrete stance not on Scripture but on philosophical conclusions. It's a weak footing.

In your statement above, would you agree that Romans chapters 9 to 11 DOES speak about corporate election and the Hebrews/Jews being the GROUP of persons that God chose for His revelation (of Himself)?

This has been accepted by theologians NOT of the calvinist theology.

 

[John Caldwell]

Decree:
To make a decree is to have an authoritative order having the force of law. It could be the judgment of a court of equity as well as being an official order, edict, or decision, as that of a church, government, court, or by God and is something that is or seems to be foreordained and is unbreakable.

source: What Does Decree Mean? A Biblical Definition of Decree


Ordain:
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
1. (v. t.) To set in order; to arrange according to rule; to regulate; to set; to establish.
2. (v. t.) To regulate, or establish, by appointment, decree, or law; to constitute; to decree; to appoint; to institute.
3. (v. t.) To set apart for an office; to appoint.
4. (v. t.) To invest with ministerial or sacerdotal functions; to introduce into the office of the Christian ministry, by the laying on of hands, or other forms; to set apart by the ceremony of ordination.

Source as above


Frankly, JC, I don't understand the difference between Decree and Ordain
and yet you leave the micro doctrines to us!

However, if I've understood what you're saying above, I do believe it's correct.
God may not DECREE for any one specific thing to happen,,,but He certainly ALLOWS it to happen.

Some may say this is the same as CAUSING it to happen,,,which I would not agree with...however if God is Almightly and the creator of all, then, yes, we can say that He does have to allow for things to happen since nothing can move without Him.

Reformation (or Classic) Arminianism holds that God ordained all to occur. Take, for example, the Fall. Arminianism holds that God knew Adam would sin and ordained the fall - not that it should occur but that in occurring God caused it to work out for the good and for His glory.

Calvinism is a mixed bag. Some held to the same idea, but others refer to God's actions as a decree. Again, with the Fall as an example, some Calvinists hold that God decreed that the Fall should occur. God, in one sense, authored the Fall (not authored evil, but authored that the Fall would occur). God caused it to happen.

 

[John Caldwell]

In your statement above, would you agree that Romans chapters 9 to 11 DOES speak about corporate election and the Hebrews/Jews being the GROUP of persons that God chose for His revelation (of Himself)?

This has been accepted by theologians NOT of the calvinist theology.

Yes. Most of the time Scripture speaks of election as corporate election. The reason some Calvinists cannot accept Scripture at face value here is that they cannot accept anything that is not encompassed by Calvinism. This is what I mean by Calvinism as a religion as opposed to a way of understanding predestination in salvation.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

John Caldwell,

I do see the difference. I believe that God is a God of means, so I think that the first scenario (God speaking to one's heart and persuading one that His way is better) is the work of God in the heart of the lost which brings us to salvation.

Actually Calvinism teaches God gives a new heart,He does not work in the old one...

ezk36:
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

It is not a violation of one's will, but rather a changing of it in that this better way is demonstrated. One must still choose belief in this better way and choose to repent from that old way.

Actually God makes a person willing,psalm110:3
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

I see two types of Calvinists here. Some would say that God recreates those He elects so that they will believe (like that old movie..invasion of the body snatchers).

No..this caricature of real Calvinism is designed to deflect away from scripture, not toward it. The working of the Spirit of God is not "the invasion" of the body snatchers, what a profane idea that is.
Jesus taught us that it is the work of the Spirit, making the unwilling, very willing by giving a new heart and winning them by the loving work of the Spirit which is unseen....look again at John 3 as Jesus taught this aspect of what we know as biblical Calvinism today;
jn3:
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Quite different from"the invasion of the body snatchers"...perhaps we need to put down that Budweiser and look at scripture. Body snatchers,lol

.

Others believe that God uses other people to persuade. This was Spurgeon's argument. God sends a friend who tells you about the gospel, perhaps not for the first time, but you are persuaded of the gospel's truth and you choose to "come and drink".

Spurgeon used and believed the 1689 confession of faith, here it is;
The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith

 

[GodsGrace]

If you pray hard enough maybe God will allow you into the fold. I'll teach you the secret handshake, but you can't share the truth e

Reformation (or Classic) Arminianism holds that God ordained all to occur. Take, for example, the Fall. Arminianism holds that God knew Adam would sin and ordained the fall - not that it should occur but that in occurring God caused it to work out for the good and for His glory.

Calvinism is a mixed bag. Some held to the same idea, but others refer to God's actions as a decree. Again, with the Fall as an example, some Calvinists hold that God decreed that the Fall should occur. God, in one sense, authored the Fall (not authored evil, but authored that the Fall would occur). God caused it to happen.

This is a rather complicated subject matter when spoken of intelligently (as is happening here) and even a priest friend of mine has a problem with this.
This would be the question:
If God FOREKNEW (which He did) that Adam was going to sin and all the misery that would be in the future of mankind --- why did He create us to begin with?

Alas, there is no real answer.

We can only know that FOREKNOWLEDGE is not CAUSATION.
And yet, precisely because God is Almighty, He allows events to occur.

But yes, calvinist theology takes this one step further and puts the responsibility for murder and evil squarely on God's shoulders.

So what's the secret hand shake?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. Most of the time Scripture speaks of election as corporate election. The reason some Calvinists cannot accept Scripture at face value here is that they cannot accept anything that is not encompassed by Calvinism. This is what I mean by Calvinism as a religion as opposed to a way of understanding predestination in salvation.

It's the problem of bringing to scripture a concept and making scripture fit that concept instead of allowing scripture to speak for itself.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

John Caldwell,

Yes. Most of the time Scripture speaks of election as corporate election.

Said NO CALVINIST ever...not even close.

The reason some Calvinists cannot accept Scripture at face value here is that they cannot accept anything that is not encompassed by Calvinism.

Your aversion to actual biblical Calvinism cause you JonC to attempt to redefine it away, dance away from the questions these brothers and sisters offer, to YOUR version of what it is.

This is what I mean by Calvinism as a religion as opposed to a way of understanding predestination in salvation.

translation...I despise actual biblical Calvinism and try to explain away what the confessing Church has historically believed. Instead I will post my version of everything, and when they oppose me, I will delete them,lol

 

[GodsGrace]

John Caldwell,



Said NO CALVINIST ever...not even close.


Your aversion to actual biblical Calvinism cause you JonC to attempt to redefine it away, dance away from the questions these brothers and sisters offer, to YOUR version of what it is.




translation...I despise actual biblical Calvinism and try to explain away what the confessing Church has historically believed. Instead I will post my version of everything, and when they oppose me, I will delete them,lol

Which confessing church?
What has it historically believed?
When did this history begin? 1,500 AD?
What was going on BEFORE that?

Do you ever think about this?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Don't be so excited !
I don't agree with calvinist theology.

Not yet, lol but you study ,and in time you will embrace it Lord willing

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Which confessing church?
What has it historically believed?
When did this history begin? 1,500 AD?
What was going on BEFORE that?

Do you ever think about this?

Historic Confessions | Reformed Theology and Apologetics