All the ELECT please stand up

[Kermos]

OK, I can see that you have found room to squirm around Rev. 22:17. So, I shall add to that with Heb. 2[9] But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

EXAMINING REVELATION 22:17

ho thelon labeto hydor zoes dorean (Greek Revelation 22:17)
the desiring receive water of-life gratuitously (English word for word from Greek Revelation 22:17)
let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost (NASB Revelation 22:17)

Grammatical constructs:
- ho is the direct object which translates to English as "the" which is not an indirect object.
- thelon is a verb.
- labeto a form of lambano both being a verb which carries not only "receive" but also "to be siezed by"
- the Greek word "hos" which translates to English as "who" is absent.
- the Greek word "pas" which translates to English as "every" is absent.

The word "ho"/"the" negates the possibility for the word whosoever whatsoever, for example "the whosoever" fails as nonsensical grammatically. There is NO "whosoever" in the passage of Revelation 22:17, in point of fact, this sounds much more like a promise with "the desiring receive water of-life gratuitously" (English word for word from Greek Revelation 22:17)!

Earburner, "whosoever" is not there implicitly nor explictly. Free willers try to use "whosoever" as a promiscuos and permissive word. Your "room to squirm" anecdote is ambiguous, so you could mean that you still think Revelation has "whosoever" in it or possibly that you still believe the passage is about salvation if you ever thought such. Your statement is vague. I do not want you to forget that Revelation carries a severe penalty as the Apostle John wrote "if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18).

In reality, the NASB translation is very close with "let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost" (Revelation 22:17) for which two Greek words translate to English as "the one who wishes" or "the one desiring" or "the one wanting" or "the desiring" or "the wanting", that context of Revelation 22:17 is attraction; moreover, when the Apostle John's words in Revelation 22:17 are taken in accord with Lord Jesus' words of "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) thus there is no promiscuos and permissive sense, so a person cannot "desire" the water of life without the Lord Jesus!

Regardless, this is NOT about salvation since a person cannot "choose" Lord Jesus because Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), so "the desiring" mentioned in Revelation 22:17 are already chosen/elect by Lord Jesus.

This has been covered in this thread, and you repeat error by trying to use Revelation 22:17 as a proof text for a person to choose Jesus, that is, do the impossible for man (Matthew 19:25-26).

Since the Book of Hebrews is written to we believers, then this results in the Holy Spirit being needed to understand the passages in the perspective as a partaker in the assembly of God; therefore, that "every one" in Hebrews 2:9 refers to we people in the assembly of God as well as the unconverted that God has yet to bring into the assembly of God. All the New Testament epistles have this characteristic of being written to believers, so the perspective plays on the contextual circumstances of all the epistles as well.

Hebrews 2:9-10 states "But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, [namely], Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings", so we find a narrowing of the focus "the author of their salvation" with the "their" being "bringing many sons to glory" with for Jesus "are all things" and "through" Jesus "are all things" - SEE THAT IT IS ABOUT JESUS - HIS POWER - HIS GLORY - HIS WORK IN SALVATION OF MAN - that "everyone" in Hebrews 2:9 are "every one" (even more Greek accurate) that Lord Jesus chooses since Lord Jesus' words said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and the Hebrews 2:9 "every one" cannot mean absolutely every person who ever lived since Lord Jesus also said "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14).

 

[atpollard]

I agree with the above, except that I know that J Wesley believed the attainment of perfection was possible in this life. I attended a Nazarene church for about 10 years and this is what they taught.

Be a little skeptical of what anyone tells you that someone else teaches/believes. Check out John Wesley's position for yourself rather than trusting the OPINION of the Nazarene church (or the Methodist church that Wesley founded, or even what I post). It is too easy to get bad second hand opinions on what someone else believes.

 

[atpollard]

EXAMINING REVELATION 22:17

ho thelon labeto hydor zoes dorean (Greek Revelation 22:17)
the desiring receive water of-life gratuitously (English word for word from Greek Revelation 22:17)
let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost (NASB Revelation 22:17)

Grammatical constructs:
- ho is the direct object which translates to English as "the" which is not an indirect object.
- thelon is a verb.
- labeto a form of lambano both being a verb which carries not only "receive" but also "to be siezed by"
- the Greek word "hos" which translates to English as "who" is absent.
- the Greek word "pas" which translates to English as "every" is absent.

The word "ho"/"the" negates the possibility for the word whosoever whatsoever, for example "the whosoever" fails as nonsensical grammatically. There is NO "whosoever" in the passage of Revelation 22:17, in point of fact, this sounds much more like a promise with "the desiring receive water of-life gratuitously" (English word for word from Greek Revelation 22:17)!

Earburner, "whosoever" is not there implicitly nor explictly. Free willers try to use "whosoever" as a promiscuos and permissive word. Your "room to squirm" anecdote is ambiguous, so you could mean that you still think Revelation has "whosoever" in it or possibly that you still believe the passage is about salvation if you ever thought such. Your statement is vague. I do not want you to forget that Revelation carries a severe penalty as the Apostle John wrote "if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18).

In reality, the NASB translation is very close with "let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost" (Revelation 22:17) for which two Greek words translate to English as "the one who wishes" or "the one desiring" or "the one wanting" or "the desiring" or "the wanting", that context of Revelation 22:17 is attraction; moreover, when the Apostle John's words in Revelation 22:17 are taken in accord with Lord Jesus' words of "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) thus there is no promiscuos and permissive sense, so a person cannot "desire" the water of life without the Lord Jesus!

Regardless, this is NOT about salvation since a person cannot "choose" Lord Jesus because Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), so "the desiring" mentioned in Revelation 22:17 are already chosen/elect by Lord Jesus.

This has been covered in this thread, and you repeat error by trying to use Revelation 22:17 as a proof text for a person to choose Jesus, that is, do the impossible for man (Matthew 19:25-26).

Wow, I mean a "like" doesn't really do justice to that.
Bravissimo!

 

[Kermos]

Oh my.
Once again INSULTS and NO RESPONSE.

Yes. It IS difficult to respond to the truth.

Which words of Moses did I twist BTW?
Maybe YOU are twisting words...which is what is necessary to believe calvinism.

Another lie, GodsGrace, since I provided a response when I basically wrote to you that If you truly seek the Truth, then you will need look at the 16th link down (including scripture citations) in the first post of page 61.

A liar cannot be trusted. GodsGrace, a returning examination of where you expressly lied is immediately due again since you try to twist Moses words and context of Deuteronomy 30.

Your bold-faced lie about your use of commentaries quoted and exposed in my post #968 in this thread, and my post links back to your post via the thread.

Your disinformation campaign (fake news) about the first 1,500 years where you lie that no one discerned the Sovereignty of God in salvation quoted and exposed in my post #1018 in this thread, and my post links back to your post via the thread.

Another case of your lie about not using commentaries quoted and exposed in my post #1016 in this thread, and my post links back to your post via the thread.

Your lie trying to twist John 3:16 to include "choose" where "choose" does not exist quoted and exposed in my post #1069 in this thread, and my post links back to your post via the thread.

Your lie trying to inject "choice" into the words of Clement commentary quoted and exposed in my post #1191 in this thread, and my post links back to your post via the thread.

The leaven of your deceit leavens the whole loaf of your theology (Galatians 5:9). The father of lies is the devil (John 8:44).

For we Christians, Word is Truth (John 14:6).

Your words in which you claim that you chose Jesus entirely and defiantly contradicts the King of Glory's words "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16); furthermore, you do not receive Lord Jesus' sayings of which this is one of His sayings "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD.

By God's grace I declare that in the tender love and mercy of God man is saved for God's glory! Praise Lord Jesus for mercy and grace!

 

[Kermos]

Hello Kermos,
I have to wonder where evangelization comes into play, considering your belief/understanding of how one is saved. The apostles were sure on fire to get the Gospel out there and, we are also to obey the Great Commission, yes? I am sorry, I just don't see how or even why one with your beliefs would care about sharing the Gospel since, it has been said and done...the elect will be saved, case closed. Nothing even they themselves can do about it, as they are so compelled to the point of an irresistible force to follow God.
So, if I may ask, where do you stand on sharing the Gospel? Are you passionate about it like the apostles? Can you tell just anybody that God loves them, and mean that, know that?
No offence meant here! It is just a curious thing to me.
God Bless,
nancy
P.S. @Kermos - how would you, in your own experience describe Irresistible Grace?

Hello Nancy,

I provide the Truth in response to your inquiry, Lord Jesus said "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:18-20), and regarding His use of this vessel of mercy of His, that is for the right hand to know but not the left (Matthew 6:3-4).

Nancy, I recognize that your choice is valuable to you, but the Truth says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). I have to write, if you truly treasure the Author and Perfecter of the belief/faith, then His words of Truth (John 14:6) would resound within you, and your crime against God would not only amplify within you (Romans 5:20) but the Overcomer of eternal death Who covers sin in His Blood replaces that amplification with JOY IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD (Romans 14:17)!

In the promise of the resurrection,
Kermos

 

[GodsGrace]

Be a little skeptical of what anyone tells you that someone else teaches/believes. Check out John Wesley's position for yourself rather than trusting the OPINION of the Nazarene church (or the Methodist church that Wesley founded, or even what I post). It is too easy to get bad second hand opinions on what someone else believes.

I know the above on my own....
besides which, the Naz. church did teach the possibility of perfection in this life...which is not possible and is incorrect teaching. Every church, it seems to me, has some teaching or other that is not right.


"AN immediate and constant fruit of this faith whereby we are born of God, a fruit which can in no wise be separate from it, no, not for an hour, is power over sin, — power over outward sin of every kind; every evil word and work . . . . 'Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for His seed remaineth in him; and he cannot sin because he is born of God' (1 John iii. 9). But some men will say, 'True; whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin habitually.' Habitually! Whence is that? I read it not. It is not written in the Book. God plainly saith, 'He doth not commit sin;' and thou addesthabitually! Who art thou that mendest the oracles of God? . . . Suffer we the apostle to interpret his own words by the whole tenor of his discourse.

In the fifth verse of this chapter, he had said, 'Ye know that He (Christ) was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.' What is the inference he draws from this? 'Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not; whosoever sinneth has not seen Him, neither known Him' (v. 6). To this enforcement of this important doctrine, he premises a highly necessary caution, — 'Little children, let no man deceive you' (v. 7); for many will endeavor so to do, to persuade you that you may be unrighteous, that you may commit sin, and yet be the children of God; 'he that doeth righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous.

He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning.' Then follows: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.' 'In this,' adds the apostle, 'the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil.' By this plain mark (the committing or not committing sin) are they distinguished from each other. To the same effect are those words in the fifth chapter: 'We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not' (v. 18)." — Sermons, vol. i. p.155.

source: Justified Believers Do Not Sin

 

[marksman]

i get tired of this idea that God selects individuals for salvation. These are called “the elect”.
There is not a person on here that can PROVE they are one of the elect. You can’t demonstrate anything physically. You can’t point to anything in the Bible that proves that you personally have been selected. You can only point to generic passages talking about election. And in those passages there is NOTHING that points directly to you.
So, I want ALL those who think God chose you for election to please stand up and PROVE IT!!!

What if you are in a wheelchair?

 

[Earburner]

I am saying that "whosoever will" is

John 1
[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[7] The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
[8] He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
[9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


aka ...

• [John 6:44] "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
• [Ephesians 2:4-5] But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
• [Romans 9:16] So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

It is not about what we want, it is all about what God wants. I didn't say it and it doesn't seem fair to my human mind, but God did say it and I have presented where he says it ... including right in the verses where you claim that we are the ones to decide. My whole point in Genesis 1-4 is that nobody had more reason to be "Whosoever Will" than Adam and Eve and Cain, but even they "would not". They hid from God. They refused to confess. They never repented. They ignored commands and warnings directly from the mouth of God. They were just as incapable of doing what God required as scripture says we are. God had to draw them to do what is right, just like He has to draw us to do what is right.

And here is what you are NOT understanding:
Yes!! I agree, and so does every born again Christian! John 6:44 is true 100% "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

However, His "drawing" is upon EVERY MAN, otherwise the words of the Holy Spirit through Peter is a LIE!
2 Peter 3[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but THAT ALL should come to repentance.

The very Heart of God the Father is to NOT lose anyone of us, but because of OUR FREE WILL, He knows that HE SHALL.
For THAT He is "not willing", but accepts it as being, there is no other way!

 

[Enoch111]

Nancy, I recognize that your choice is valuable to you, but the Truth says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Since you know you don't have a leg to stand on, you keep repeating this verse over and over again, hoping that if a lie is repeatedly sufficiently, it will someone gain credibility.

But that you are ABUSING AND MISUSING this Scripture is clear from the words of Christ Himself: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (Jn 3:17)

Since God desires the salvation of the world, He cannot possibly choose some for salvation and others for damnation. He would be violating His own words and His own character. And yet this has not penetrated your heart and mind, and probably never will. But when you give account, you will be told that you received the truth and RESISTED it.

 

[Earburner]

Earburner, "whosoever" is not there implicitly nor explictly. Free willers try to use "whosoever" as a promiscuos and permissive word. Your "room to squirm" anecdote is ambiguous, so you could mean that you still think Revelation has "whosoever" in it or possibly that you still believe the passage is about salvation if you ever thought such.

Since you doubt and deny, then try this in Rev. also:
3[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if ANY man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

"Any" is synonymous with "whosoever".

 

[GodsGrace]

Another lie, GodsGrace, since I provided a response when I basically wrote to you that If you truly seek the Truth, then you will need look at the 16th link down (including scripture citations) in the first post of page 61.

A liar cannot be trusted. GodsGrace, a returning examination of where you expressly lied is immediately due again since you try to twist Moses words and context of Deuteronomy 30.

Your bold-faced lie about your use of commentaries quoted and exposed in my post #968 in this thread, and my post links back to your post via the thread.

Your disinformation campaign (fake news) about the first 1,500 years where you lie that no one discerned the Sovereignty of God in salvation quoted and exposed in my post #1018 in this thread, and my post links back to your post via the thread.

Another case of your lie about not using commentaries quoted and exposed in my post #1016 in this thread, and my post links back to your post via the thread.

Your lie trying to twist John 3:16 to include "choose" where "choose" does not exist quoted and exposed in my post #1069 in this thread, and my post links back to your post via the thread.

Your lie trying to inject "choice" into the words of Clement commentary quoted and exposed in my post #1191 in this thread, and my post links back to your post via the thread.

The leaven of your deceit leavens the whole loaf of your theology (Galatians 5:9). The father of lies is the devil (John 8:44).

For we Christians, Word is Truth (John 14:6).

Your words in which you claim that you chose Jesus entirely and defiantly contradicts the King of Glory's words "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16); furthermore, you do not receive Lord Jesus' sayings of which this is one of His sayings "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD.

By God's grace I declare that in the tender love and mercy of God man is saved for God's glory! Praise Lord Jesus for mercy and grace!

I just read post 1243.
Either someone else wrote it and not you
OR
You just don't like talking to me.

Which is fine.

 

[Earburner]

EXAMINING REVELATION 22:17

ho thelon labeto hydor zoes dorean (Greek Revelation 22:17)
the desiring receive water of-life gratuitously (English word for word from Greek Revelation 22:17)
let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost (NASB Revelation 22:17)

Grammatical constructs:
- ho is the direct object which translates to English as "the" which is not an indirect object.
- thelon is a verb.
- labeto a form of lambano both being a verb which carries not only "receive" but also "to be siezed by"
- the Greek word "hos" which translates to English as "who" is absent.
- the Greek word "pas" which translates to English as "every" is absent.

The word "ho"/"the" negates the possibility for the word whosoever whatsoever, for example "the whosoever" fails as nonsensical grammatically. There is NO "whosoever" in the passage of Revelation 22:17, in point of fact, this sounds much more like a promise with "the desiring receive water of-life gratuitously" (English word for word from Greek Revelation 22:17)!

Earburner, "whosoever" is not there implicitly nor explictly. Free willers try to use "whosoever" as a promiscuos and permissive word. Your "room to squirm" anecdote is ambiguous, so you could mean that you still think Revelation has "whosoever" in it or possibly that you still believe the passage is about salvation if you ever thought such. Your statement is vague. I do not want you to forget that Revelation carries a severe penalty as the Apostle John wrote "if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18).

In reality, the NASB translation is very close with "let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost" (Revelation 22:17) for which two Greek words translate to English as "the one who wishes" or "the one desiring" or "the one wanting" or "the desiring" or "the wanting", that context of Revelation 22:17 is attraction; moreover, when the Apostle John's words in Revelation 22:17 are taken in accord with Lord Jesus' words of "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) thus there is no promiscuos and permissive sense, so a person cannot "desire" the water of life without the Lord Jesus!

Regardless, this is NOT about salvation since a person cannot "choose" Lord Jesus because Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), so "the desiring" mentioned in Revelation 22:17 are already chosen/elect by Lord Jesus.

This has been covered in this thread, and you repeat error by trying to use Revelation 22:17 as a proof text for a person to choose Jesus, that is, do the impossible for man (Matthew 19:25-26).

Since the Book of Hebrews is written to we believers, then this results in the Holy Spirit being needed to understand the passages in the perspective as a partaker in the assembly of God; therefore, that "every one" in Hebrews 2:9 refers to we people in the assembly of God as well as the unconverted that God has yet to bring into the assembly of God. All the New Testament epistles have this characteristic of being written to believers, so the perspective plays on the contextual circumstances of all the epistles as well.

Hebrews 2:9-10 states "But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, [namely], Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings", so we find a narrowing of the focus "the author of their salvation" with the "their" being "bringing many sons to glory" with for Jesus "are all things" and "through" Jesus "are all things" - SEE THAT IT IS ABOUT JESUS - HIS POWER - HIS GLORY - HIS WORK IN SALVATION OF MAN - that "everyone" in Hebrews 2:9 are "every one" (even more Greek accurate) that Lord Jesus chooses since Lord Jesus' words said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and the Hebrews 2:9 "every one" cannot mean absolutely every person who ever lived since Lord Jesus also said "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14).

No one here denies John 15:16!!
It's you that is confounded about it, and as a result, you are splitting hairs over your own fabrications, attempting to contend against God, that He never desired, or cared to save all the world, through the Sacrifice of His only begotten Son.

Because you refuse to see/percieve our God given "free will", prior to our fallen nature, you shall always find what YOU WANT to find, for your own understanding in the NASB, NIV, RSV, etc., etc, because those bible versions ARE ALL translated from the "Westcott and Hort Greek text".

However, I quote from only the KJV, which is translated from the "Textus Receptus Greek text".
Therefore, in our interpretations, we shall always be at odds and miles apart, due to two different schools of thought.

Now, since the KJV has been the authorized Bible version, for the English speaking Protestant churches since 1611, and remains to be so for the past 408 years, I am stedfast, in that its wording supercedes any and all other modern versions, for correct understanding.

 

[Earburner]

Kermos,
Ok! You favor the NASB, and I the KJV.
Even when one does a comparative study with the NASB and the KJV, side by side, the word "whosoever" (KJV) fits perfectly!

So, as far as I am concerned, we "free willers" are spot on with the Lord's Truth, and all of you calvinist "nay sayers" are contending against Him!

NASB- Rev. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if *anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
NASB- Rev. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: **he that will, let him take the water of life freely.

KJV- Rev. 3[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
KJV- Rev. 22[17] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

*Ooopps! There's that nasty word "any" in the NASB.
** Oh! And look here... "he that WILL"??
Now, for all of what is said in the above, Rev. 3:20 clinches it for both versions, by using the word "any".
If "any" do what?
Ans. "Open the door". To open the door (of our heart), is to let Christ come in!

God is knocking on the door of EVERY MAN's heart!!
So then, what is the obstacle that defeats both God and man? His personal FREE WILL!! He has the free will to NOT open the door!!

Yes! God's Gift of Salvation is freely given to
any man, anyone, he that will, whosoever will!

I mean really, what a shame! And you were so hopeful that you could make your calvinist doctrine beat us "free willers" into the ground!

When are you going to realize that you are contending with God with your false doctrine?

 

[Kermos]

Free-willian (a.k.a. Armenian or Pelagian) false theological basis of human volition toward God (a.k.a. works righteousness) contradicts the Word of God.

GOD PURIFIES SOULS: The Apostle Peter disagrees with "my obedience makes me right with Jesus" free-willians when he wrote "God the souls of you having-purified in the obedience of-the truth through Spirit" in "The-ones through Him believing into God the One rousing Him out of-dead-ones and esteem to Him giving as-besides the belief of-you and expectation to-be into God the souls of you having-purified in the obedience of-the truth through Spirit into brotherly-affection unfeigned out of-clean heart one-another love-you earnestly" (1 Peter 1:21-22) thus we believers who believe through Lord Jesus into God are obedient through the Spirit of God. Everyone starts out dead in sins incapable of pleasing God (Ehpesians 2:1, Hebrews 11:6), but God has makes us believers alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5)

GOD CAUSES WE BELIEVERS TO BE BORN AGAIN: The Apostle Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), disagrees with "I can see the King of the kingdom of God" free-willians when He says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3), A PERSON CANNOT CAUSE HIM OR HERSELF TO BE BORN (Nicodemus asked Jesus about this in John 3:4).

GOD CAUSES WE BELIEVERS TO BE BORN AGAIN: The Apostle Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), disagrees with "I chose Jesus then was born again" free-willians when He says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:5-8). HERE LORD JESUS DECISIVELY STATES THE REQUIREMENT TO BE "BORN OF THE SPIRIT"!

GOD IMPARTS FAITH: The Apostle Paul disagrees with "I put my faith in Jesus" free-willians when he wrote that we believers are saved by God's grace through faith (1) faith/belief is the gift of God, (2) faith/belief is not conjured up in we believer, (3) faith/belief is not a work of man, (4) the grace of God saves us believers, (6) no one may boast, for example all the free-will claims "I accepted Jesus", "I chose Jesus", and "I opened my heart to Jesus" are boasting in a work of man, and (7) we believers are created in Lord Jesus for good works in other words we believers are born again by the Holy Spirit thus we vessels of the Spirit of God produce righteous fruit, and here are the words the Apostle Paul wrote verbatim "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them" (Ephesians 2:8-10).

GOD IMPARTS FAITH: The Apostle Peter disagrees with "Jesus must give me eternal life because of my choice of Him" free-willians when he wrote "you who through Him are believers in God" (1 Peter 1:20-21) thus only we believers who believe through Lord Jesus into God do so in Spirit and Truth (John 4:23, John 14:6)!

GOD IMPARTS BELIEF: The Apostle Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), disagrees with "I chose to believe in Jesus" free-willians when He says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29). Belief and faith are synonyms. Lord Jesus defines believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent as the "work of God" - BEHOLD, NOT THE WORK OF MAN - NO - TRULY, A PERSON BELIEVING IS THE WORK OF GOD, thus "that who ever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16 - word for word Greek to English is "that every the one-believing into Him no should-be-being-destroyed but may-be-having life eonian"). The one believing whom Jesus refers to in John 3:16 is the one who receives the "work of God" to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

GOD IS THE SOURCE OF MAN'S GOOD DEEDS WHICH IS FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT: The Apostle Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), disagrees with "I came to Jesus on my own initiative" free-willians when He says "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21). "Coming" to Jesus is a deed, and practicing the truth is a deed, so Lord Jesus uses the words "his deeds", deeds in plural, in the passage referring back to the word "deed" in singular a couple of times in the passage; therefore both "practices the truth" and "comes to the Light" are deeds that "may be manifested as having been wrought in God - BEHOLD, NOT WROUGHT IN MAN - NO - TRULY, WROUGHT IN GOD! Thus these deeds, theses works, these fruits are good (Matthew 7:17). Lord Jesus states the Power of God by repeating about we believers coming to Him with His words of "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me" (John 6:37) thus the Father gives us to Jesus thus He owns us believers thus we come to Jesus all by the Power of God for we can do nothing apart from Jesus (John 15:5)!

GOD KNOWS THE CHOSEN/ELECT BY NAME: The Apostle John disagrees with "Jesus does not know who will accept Him" free-willians when he wrote "only those whose names are written" "in the book of life from the foundation of the world" in "written in the book of life from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 17:8) and "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) thus God knows the names of the individuals that are God's from the foundation of the world, so there is no surprise for God which persons are elect.

GOD CHOOSES PEOPLE UNTO SALVATION: The Apostle Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), disagrees with "I choose Jesus" free-willians when He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) along with "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20) thus the Word of God speaking to people currently following Him in the past tense such that all believers hearing His voice recognize the inability to choose Him, so this applies ot all believers in all time; on the other hand, there is the debate that the aorist verb in Greek can be past, present, and future which would still make these words of Lord Jesus applicable to all believers in all time.

GOD SAVES PEOPLE - PEOPLE CANNOT SAVE THEMSELVES: Christ Jesus, Lord and God, disagrees with you for He answered "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" in response to the disciple's question of "Then who can be saved?" (Matthew 19:25-26) because God says God must choose man (John 15:16) after all it is impossible for man to choose, impossible for man to conjure up belief/faith (John 6:29), impossible for man to cause himself to be born again (John 3:3, John 3:5), impossible for the uncoverted by the Holy Spirit man to please God (Hebrews 11:6).

GOD IS JEALOUS (Exodus 20:5), AND GOD DOES NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER (Isaiah 42:8). FREE-WILLIANS ARE THIEVES THAT SIN AGAINST GOD (Exodus 20:15, Matthew 19:18) IN THAT THEY TRY TO STEAL GOD'S GLORY IN THE SALVATION OF MAN SINCE THE SON OF GOD STATES "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (John 15:16); THEREFORE, ALL FREE-WILLIANS ARE WITNESSES AGAINST YOURSELVES FOR YOU CLAIM TO CHOOSE GOD, BUT YOU CANNOT CHOOSE GOD BECAUSE LORD JESUS SAID YOU CANNOT THUS YOU CHOSE A FALSE GOD IN WHICH THERE IS NO ETERNAL LIFE!

 

[marksman]

Free-willian (a.k.a. Armenian or Pelagian) false theological basis of human volition toward God (a.k.a. works righteousness) contradicts the Word of God.

GOD PURIFIES SOULS: The Apostle Peter disagrees with "my obedience makes me right with Jesus" free-willians when he wrote "God the souls of you having-purified in the obedience of-the truth through Spirit" in "The-ones through Him believing into God the One rousing Him out of-dead-ones and esteem to Him giving as-besides the belief of-you and expectation to-be into God the souls of you having-purified in the obedience of-the truth through Spirit into brotherly-affection unfeigned out of-clean heart one-another love-you earnestly" (1 Peter 1:21-22) thus we believers who believe through Lord Jesus into God are obedient through the Spirit of God. Everyone starts out dead in sins incapable of pleasing God (Ehpesians 2:1, Hebrews 11:6), but God has makes us believers alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5)

GOD CAUSES WE BELIEVERS TO BE BORN AGAIN: The Apostle Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), disagrees with "I can see the King of the kingdom of God" free-willians when He says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3), A PERSON CANNOT CAUSE HIM OR HERSELF TO BE BORN (Nicodemus asked Jesus about this in John 3:4).

GOD CAUSES WE BELIEVERS TO BE BORN AGAIN: The Apostle Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), disagrees with "I chose Jesus then was born again" free-willians when He says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:5-8). HERE LORD JESUS DECISIVELY STATES THE REQUIREMENT TO BE "BORN OF THE SPIRIT"!

GOD IMPARTS FAITH: The Apostle Paul disagrees with "I put my faith in Jesus" free-willians when he wrote that we believers are saved by God's grace through faith (1) faith/belief is the gift of God, (2) faith/belief is not conjured up in we believer, (3) faith/belief is not a work of man, (4) the grace of God saves us believers, (6) no one may boast, for example all the free-will claims "I accepted Jesus", "I chose Jesus", and "I opened my heart to Jesus" are boasting in a work of man, and (7) we believers are created in Lord Jesus for good works in other words we believers are born again by the Holy Spirit thus we vessels of the Spirit of God produce righteous fruit, and here are the words the Apostle Paul wrote verbatim "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them" (Ephesians 2:8-10).

GOD IMPARTS FAITH: The Apostle Peter disagrees with "Jesus must give me eternal life because of my choice of Him" free-willians when he wrote "you who through Him are believers in God" (1 Peter 1:20-21) thus only we believers who believe through Lord Jesus into God do so in Spirit and Truth (John 4:23, John 14:6)!

GOD IMPARTS BELIEF: The Apostle Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), disagrees with "I chose to believe in Jesus" free-willians when He says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29). Belief and faith are synonyms. Lord Jesus defines believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent as the "work of God" - BEHOLD, NOT THE WORK OF MAN - NO - TRULY, A PERSON BELIEVING IS THE WORK OF GOD, thus "that who ever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16 - word for word Greek to English is "that every the one-believing into Him no should-be-being-destroyed but may-be-having life eonian"). The one believing whom Jesus refers to in John 3:16 is the one who receives the "work of God" to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

GOD IS THE SOURCE OF MAN'S GOOD DEEDS WHICH IS FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT: The Apostle Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), disagrees with "I came to Jesus on my own initiative" free-willians when He says "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21). "Coming" to Jesus is a deed, and practicing the truth is a deed, so Lord Jesus uses the words "his deeds", deeds in plural, in the passage referring back to the word "deed" in singular a couple of times in the passage; therefore both "practices the truth" and "comes to the Light" are deeds that "may be manifested as having been wrought in God - BEHOLD, NOT WROUGHT IN MAN - NO - TRULY, WROUGHT IN GOD! Thus these deeds, theses works, these fruits are good (Matthew 7:17). Lord Jesus states the Power of God by repeating about we believers coming to Him with His words of "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me" (John 6:37) thus the Father gives us to Jesus thus He owns us believers thus we come to Jesus all by the Power of God for we can do nothing apart from Jesus (John 15:5)!

GOD KNOWS THE CHOSEN/ELECT BY NAME: The Apostle John disagrees with "Jesus does not know who will accept Him" free-willians when he wrote "only those whose names are written" "in the book of life from the foundation of the world" in "written in the book of life from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 17:8) and "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) thus God knows the names of the individuals that are God's from the foundation of the world, so there is no surprise for God which persons are elect.

GOD CHOOSES PEOPLE UNTO SALVATION: The Apostle Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), disagrees with "I choose Jesus" free-willians when He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) along with "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20) thus the Word of God speaking to people currently following Him in the past tense such that all believers hearing His voice recognize the inability to choose Him, so this applies ot all believers in all time; on the other hand, there is the debate that the aorist verb in Greek can be past, present, and future which would still make these words of Lord Jesus applicable to all believers in all time.

GOD SAVES PEOPLE - PEOPLE CANNOT SAVE THEMSELVES: Christ Jesus, Lord and God, disagrees with you for He answered "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" in response to the disciple's question of "Then who can be saved?" (Matthew 19:25-26) because God says God must choose man (John 15:16) after all it is impossible for man to choose, impossible for man to conjure up belief/faith (John 6:29), impossible for man to cause himself to be born again (John 3:3, John 3:5), impossible for the uncoverted by the Holy Spirit man to please God (Hebrews 11:6).

GOD IS JEALOUS (Exodus 20:5), AND GOD DOES NOT GIVE HIS GLORY TO ANOTHER (Isaiah 42:8). FREE-WILLIANS ARE THIEVES THAT SIN AGAINST GOD (Exodus 20:15, Matthew 19:18) IN THAT THEY TRY TO STEAL GOD'S GLORY IN THE SALVATION OF MAN SINCE THE SON OF GOD STATES "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (John 15:16); THEREFORE, ALL FREE-WILLIANS ARE WITNESSES AGAINST YOURSELVES FOR YOU CLAIM TO CHOOSE GOD, BUT YOU CANNOT CHOOSE GOD BECAUSE LORD JESUS SAID YOU CANNOT THUS YOU CHOSE A FALSE GOD IN WHICH THERE IS NO ETERNAL LIFE!

Nice bit of cut and paste.

 

[marksman]

Lord save the elect and then save some more.

 

[Earburner]

GOD IMPARTS FAITH: The Apostle Paul disagrees with "I put my faith in Jesus" free-willians when he wrote that we believers are saved by God's grace through faith (1) faith/belief is the gift of God, (2) faith/belief is not conjured up in we believer, (3) faith/belief is not a work of man, (4) the grace of God saves us believers, (6) no one may boast, for example all the free-will claims "I accepted Jesus", "I chose Jesus", and "I opened my heart to Jesus" are boasting in a work of man,

How is it that you oppose Rev. 3:20?
[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Ans. You honestly don't know!

 

[Kermos]

Free willians in the flesh interpret New Testament scriptures falsely by claiming this or that scripture must mean free-will when there is no free-will indicated.

"Apart from Me you can do nothing" says Lord Jesus (John 15:5); on the other hand, free willians exclaim they have done something on their own power, such as they chose Jesus.

Free willians operate against Jesus, thus free willians are evil men and impostors that proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived (2 Timothy 3:13)!

Proofs of God's Sovereignty In Man's Salvation and Freewiller's Distortions of Scripture includng the Lord Jesus' words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) (in this thread)

 

[Enoch111]

Free willians operate against Jesus, thus free willians are evil men and impostors that proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived

Since the majority of Christians reject Five Point Calvinism, you are falsely accusing genuine Christians of being evil men and impostors.

Which just goes to show HOW EVIL CALVINISM IS. It is is false gospel.

 

[Naomi25]

i get tired of this idea that God selects individuals for salvation. These are called “the elect”.
There is not a person on here that can PROVE they are one of the elect. You can’t demonstrate anything physically. You can’t point to anything in the Bible that proves that you personally have been selected. You can only point to generic passages talking about election. And in those passages there is NOTHING that points directly to you.
So, I want ALL those who think God chose you for election to please stand up and PROVE IT!!!

I'm sorry, but this strikes me as a MOST ridiculous post. "It can't be proven physically". Man, you just described the Christian faith. Or, at least 90% of it. "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Heb 11:1). Faith is the founding principle of the Christian belief and it totally relies on things not physically provable.

For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” -Romans 1:17

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. -Romans 10:17

for we walk by faith, not by sight. -2 Corinthians 5:7

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. -Galatians 2:15–16

Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:2


So...if our faith is so founded on something that is NOT physical, you saying you cannot accept something within our faith unless you can see it provable in that way, is rather laughable, is it not?
You say that the bible just has "generic" passages talking about election. Well, it's still Gods word, which still makes these 'generic' passages much more important than your insistance for something tangible. I seem to remember something like that coming from Thomas. What did he get labelled again? 'Doubting'? There is a very good reason our beliefs are based upon faith . Let's see if we can't make some rather logical conclusions with the passages God has provided us with.

Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. -Romans 8:33

Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began -Titus 1:1–2

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. -2 Timothy 2:10–11

Ok, so we have these 'generic' passages with 'election' in them. But they give us specifications of how we can know if we fall into this category. Romans 8:33 tells us that the elect are those whom God 'justifies'. Where else in scripture tells us how a person is justified?

the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. -Romans 3:22–25

Titus 1:1-2 lines up election with 'faith' again, and we've seen above how much faith is a crucial part of Christian life. Without faith we are not saved. Titus 1:1-2 also tells us that the elect will have a knowledge of the truth. What does scripture say about this?

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, -Ephesians 1:13

But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. - 2 Thessalonians 2:13

Titus also speaks of hope, another 'un'physical attribute of the Christian walk.

Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. - Romans 5:2

and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. - Romans 5:5

For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? - Romans 8:24

And, the last verse given that speaks of the 'elect' links it directly with a person gaining salvation. I'm not sure I have to dig through scripture to show what that means!

But the point, I hope, is clear. You may say that the passages that speak of election are generic and unclear, but that is not the case. Far from it. It is the simplest thing to do to follow the authors (God's) thoughts throughout his book in this instance.

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. -Romans 8:29–30

Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. -Romans 8:33