No Heaven if you don't mortify the deeds of the flesh

[Stan B]

Wasn't there a situation in the Old Testament wherein the body of someone was laid upon the bones of a prophet and immediately was raised from the dead?

Yep,

"As they were burying a man, behold, they saw a marauding band; and they cast the man into the grave of Elisha. And when the man touched the bones of Elisha he revived and stood up on his feet." 2 Kings 13:21

But God provides a stern warning against doing what these vineyard Kundalini cultists are doing,

"When you enter the land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone . . who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For whoever does these things is DETESTABLE TO THE Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you. You shall be blameless before the Lord your God. For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do so." Deut 18:9

 

[Davy]

Love is the bond of perfectness.

Love of the flesh is lust, not a bond of perfectness. To God we are as filthy rags, no doubt because of our being in this flesh.

Isa 64:6-9
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
9 Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.
KJV


Rom 6:7
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
KJV

 

[Waiting on him]

Love of the flesh is lust, not a bond of perfectness. To God we are as filthy rags, no doubt because of our being in this flesh.

Isa 64:6-9
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
9 Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.
KJV


Rom 6:7
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
KJV

Love of the flesh is lust, not a bond of perfectness. To God we are as filthy rags, no doubt because of our being in this flesh.

Do you have a right to yoke me into your scenario?

 

[Waiting on him]

Salvation is today!

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus:

If you do believe in one God and are a Christian, how does that not translate into a Trinity?

Do you believe in the Deity of Christ?

The Father is obviously God.

And the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4) and also a Person with a mind and who makes intercession for us.

I don't want to put you on the spot. Feel free to answer me via PM if you feel uncomfortable sharing your views publicly.

I have no problem answering publicly but it does tend to derail the thread. Simply I do believe in the Deity of Jesus because God made it so.

As to the a trinity, why stop at a trinity when we consider Jesus' prayer to his Father here?

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:" John 17:20-22

The way he is praying why would we not look for God to be a "Multiplicity" rather than simply a "Trinity"? Now I don't believe in the multiplicity any more than I do in the trinity of God. He simply is what He has said that He is. He has manifested Himself in many more than three ways according to scripture.

On the Holy Spirit, I really cannot see Him or It as a separate part. He or It is simply God [the Father if you will] manifesting in or for us to provide our needs to the extent we allow it. God [the Father] is holy and God is Spirit, so why the need to divide Him into two [or more] parts? Men have done this as I see it, but God always sees a person's heart and will judge according to that rather than by what doctrine the person thinks is right or wrong.

 

[farouk]

Salvation is today!

The Gospel message is indeed urgent!

 

[Stan B]

I have no problem answering publicly but it does tend to derail the thread. Simply I do believe in the Deity of Jesus because God made it so.

As to the a trinity, why stop at a trinity when we consider Jesus' prayer to his Father here?

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:" John 17:20-22

The way he is praying why would we not look for God to be a "Multiplicity" rather than simply a "Trinity"? Now I don't believe in the multiplicity any more than I do in the trinity of God. He simply is what He has said that He is. He has manifested Himself in many more than three ways according to scripture.

On the Holy Spirit, I really cannot see Him or It as a separate part. He or It is simply God [the Father if you will] manifesting in or for us to provide our needs to the extent we allow it. God [the Father] is holy and God is Spirit, so why the need to divide Him into two [or more] parts? Men have done this as I see it, but God always sees a person's heart and will judge according to that rather than by what doctrine the person thinks is right or wrong.

Amadeus, I agree. The Bible never refers to God as a Trinity. That is just a man-made construct.

From the beginning, the Hebrew word for God, is plural, so the literal translation of Gen 1 is "
"In the beginning the Gods created the heavens and the earth." "Then the Gods said, “Let there be light” etc.

Then we have multiple Holy Spirits, like the seven Spirits which were sent to the seven churches Rev 1:4; the "seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God." Rev 4:5; and also the seven spirits which emanate from the throne and the Lamb which had been slain, who are sent forth into all the earth. Rev 5:6: And those are only the ones who have been revealed to us. Certainly there is much more we don't know about.

It doesn't make sense to limit an infinite God, to a limited man-made construct in a 3-in-1 box!

 

[justbyfaith]

Eventually, YOU... WE... ALL OF US... will no longer have a flesh body. The type body of the future world to come is a "spiritual body" as the NT teaches.

Of course, our spiritual body also will have physical aspects; for we will be drinking wine with Jesus new in the kingdom. The same kind of wine that Jesus and the disciples drank at the Last Supper.

One thing many people miss is that the word, translated "perfect" in the old English, did not mean what we take it to mean today. It meant to be "complete" in our efforts, not neglecting any of the things we should apply in our lives.

And, of course, "complete" means "perfect".

Yep,

"As they were burying a man, behold, they saw a marauding band; and they cast the man into the grave of Elisha. And when the man touched the bones of Elisha he revived and stood up on his feet." 2 Kings 13:21

But God provides a stern warning against doing what these vineyard Kundalini cultists are doing,

"When you enter the land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone . . who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For whoever does these things is DETESTABLE TO THE Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you. You shall be blameless before the Lord your God. For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do so." Deut 18:9

The question to be asked is whether these practices by Bethel qualify as anything mentioned above. The way I see it, they do not.

I have no problem answering publicly but it does tend to derail the thread. Simply I do believe in the Deity of Jesus because God made it so.

As to the a trinity, why stop at a trinity when we consider Jesus' prayer to his Father here?

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:" John 17:20-22

The way he is praying why would we not look for God to be a "Multiplicity" rather than simply a "Trinity"? Now I don't believe in the multiplicity any more than I do in the trinity of God. He simply is what He has said that He is. He has manifested Himself in many more than three ways according to scripture.

On the Holy Spirit, I really cannot see Him or It as a separate part. He or It is simply God [the Father if you will] manifesting in or for us to provide our needs to the extent we allow it. God [the Father] is holy and God is Spirit, so why the need to divide Him into two [or more] parts? Men have done this as I see it, but God always sees a person's heart and will judge according to that rather than by what doctrine the person thinks is right or wrong.

So you believe more along the lines of the way the Worldwide Church of God used to preach it before they stopped being a pseudo-Christian cult.

I actually see this Multiplicity (i.e. Elohim) in scripture; however the reality of it does not preclude that the Trinity is not also the reality.

I see it as Jesus being the firstbegotten (Hebrews 1:6)...really He is the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16) until more came into the kingdom through faith in Him, and were also begotten after Him (1 Peter 1:3).

I do believe that Jesus is the express image of the Father and the exact representation of His glory...we will not be at that point until the event happens that is spoken of in 1 John 3:2-3.

We are a Multiplicity in the Holy Spirit...each of us being made one spirit with Christ (1 Corinthians 6:17) and being filled with all the fulness of the Lord (Ephesians 3:19).

So then, each one of us, when fully realized, will be filled with all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (each of us individually).

In the meantime we are all sinners and do not measure up to the glory of the Lord. So we await the redemption of the body (Romans 8:23).

 

[Davy]

I have no problem answering publicly but it does tend to derail the thread. Simply I do believe in the Deity of Jesus because God made it so.

As to the a trinity, why stop at a trinity when we consider Jesus' prayer to his Father here?

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:" John 17:20-22

The way he is praying why would we not look for God to be a "Multiplicity" rather than simply a "Trinity"? Now I don't believe in the multiplicity any more than I do in the trinity of God. He simply is what He has said that He is. He has manifested Himself in many more than three ways according to scripture.

On the Holy Spirit, I really cannot see Him or It as a separate part. He or It is simply God [the Father if you will] manifesting in or for us to provide our needs to the extent we allow it. God [the Father] is holy and God is Spirit, so why the need to divide Him into two [or more] parts? Men have done this as I see it, but God always sees a person's heart and will judge according to that rather than by what doctrine the person thinks is right or wrong.

1 John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Even though that verse is not found in the majority of NT manuscripts, it's still easy to back up by Scripture, simply because Jesus Himself said that He is God (John 8).

Jesus' Name in Matthew 1 is "Emmanuel", meaning 'God with us', and either one believes it or they don't.

I love the example my Lord Jesus gave in Matthew 22 with asking the blind Pharisees why David in spirit showed God called Jesus Lord...

Matt 22:41-46
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,

42 Saying, "What think ye of Christ? whose son is he?" They say unto Him, "The Son of David."

43 He saith unto them, "How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

44 'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?'

45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?"

46 And no man was able to answer Him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask Him any more questions.
KJV


How can anyone read their Bible and not understand that Jesus is God, and that there is more than one Person in The Godhead?

Isa 9:6-7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
KJV

John 1:1-5
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by Him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In Him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
KJV

John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou Me with Thine Own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.
KJV

Col 1:14-18
14 In Whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him:
17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
18 And He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
KJV

Heb 1:8
8 But unto the Son He saith, 'Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom.'
KJV

Ex 3:14
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.'
KJV

John 8:58
58 Jesus said unto them, 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.'
KJV

 

[justbyfaith]

Not to mention, Jesus makes it a point of contention in John 8:24, teaching us that we must believe in His Deity lest we die in our sins.

 

[amadeus]

Amadeus, I agree. The Bible never refers to God as a Trinity. That is just a man-made construct.

From the beginning, the Hebrew word for God, is plural, so the literal translation of Gen 1 is "
"In the beginning the Gods created the heavens and the earth." "Then the Gods said, “Let there be light” etc.

Then we have multiple Holy Spirits, like the seven Spirits which were sent to the seven churches Rev 1:4; the "seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God." Rev 4:5; and also the seven spirits which emanate from the throne and the Lamb which had been slain, who are sent forth into all the earth. Rev 5:6: And those are only the ones who have been revealed to us. Certainly there is much more we don't know about.

It doesn't make sense to limit an infinite God, to a limited man-made construct in a 3-in-1 box!

We are in agreement on this but it seems unlikely that many others here will want to travel down this trail. I understand it can be difficult to go against almost everyone else, but that really is what Jesus did. They will say that this verse or that verse support trinity and so some of them do, but they also support other ideas which is where men get into trouble. They want God in that 'box' you mention instead of simply letting Him be all that He is.

 

[amadeus]

So you believe more along the lines of the way the Worldwide Church of God used to preach it before they stopped being a pseudo-Christian cult.

I actually see this Multiplicity (i.e. Elohim) in scripture; however the reality of it does not preclude that the Trinity is not also the reality.

I see it as Jesus being the firstbegotten (Hebrews 1:6)...really He is the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16) until more came into the kingdom through faith in Him, and were also begotten after Him (1 Peter 1:3).

I do believe that Jesus is the express image of the Father and the exact representation of His glory...we will not be at that point until the event happens that is spoken of in 1 John 3:2-3.

We are a Multiplicity in the Holy Spirit...each of us being made one spirit with Christ (1 Corinthians 6:17) and being filled with all the fulness of the Lord (Ephesians 3:19).

So then, each one of us, when fully realized, will be filled with all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (each of us individually).

In the meantime we are all sinners and do not measure up to the glory of the Lord. So we await the redemption of the body (Romans 8:23).

As I said, I don't really believe in a Multiplicity in such a sense, but Jesus' prayer helps me to understand that I really do NOT understand God at all. It makes it impossible for me to go along with the crowd and embrace a Trinity. ​

​

I had never heard of this Worldwide Church of God you mentioned but that is not surprising. There are too many things in the wide world of men to be familiar with them all.​

 

[Stan B]

We are in agreement on this but it seems unlikely that many others here will want to travel down this trail. I understand it can be difficult to go against almost everyone else, but that really is what Jesus did. They will say that this verse or that verse support trinity and so some of them do, but they also support other ideas which is where men get into trouble. They want God in that 'box' you mention instead of simply letting Him be all that He is.

I think this all started with translators. who in a monotheistic culture which had been battling polytheism forever, were afraid to translate Scripture in any way that would incur the ire of the prevailing religious culture. I suppose you could say, they were being politically correct!

 

[Stan B]

As I said, I don't really believe in a Multiplicity in such a sense, but Jesus' prayer helps me to understand that I really do NOT understand God at all. It makes it impossible for me to go along with the crowd and embrace a Trinity.

I had never heard of this Worldwide Church of God you mentioned but that is not surprising. There are too many things in the wide world of men to be familiar with them all.​

The Worldwide Church of God was a British-Israel cult headed up by Herbert W. Armstrong. I don't know if he believed it, but he taught Britain and the United States were the ten lost tribes of Israel. <giggle?>

 

[justbyfaith]

The Worldwide Church of God was a British-Israel cult headed up by Herbert W. Armstrong. I don't know if he believed it, but he taught Britain and the United States were the ten lost tribes of Israel. <giggle?>

It would be funny if it weren't so sad...the end result of this understanding is that a man will attempt to be justified by the law and thus fall from grace...believing that they are Jewish and therefore under the Old Covenant law. See Galatians 5:4.

 

[aspen]

Worldwide Church of God repented in the 90s - it is quite an interesting story

 

[justbyfaith]

I may have had a part in that process. I called into a radio program that was a prayer ministry (pastor Howard) and asked him a question. I was a new Christian because of the Plain Truth Magazine. Pastor Howard proceeded to tell me to steer clear of the Worldwide Church of God, because it was a cult and because he had a friend who had gone astray into believing their doctrines and how it grieved his heart.

Being a new Christian who was very into fasting, I prayed that the Worldwide Church of God would turn to sound doctrine and not be a cult anymore.

My prayer may not have been the only factor; but it does go to show that when fasting is added to prayer, there is a certain power that accompanies it. In those days the Lord answered in the affirmative just about everything that I asked Him to do; and did what I requested.

 

[aspen]

I may have had a part in that process. I called into a radio program that was a prayer ministry (pastor Howard) and asked him a question. I was a new Christian because of the Plain Truth Magazine. Pastor Howard proceeded to tell me to steer clear of the Worldwide Church of God, because it was a cult and because he had a friend who had gone astray into believing their doctrines and how it grieved his heart.

Being a new Christian who was very into fasting, I prayed that the Worldwide Church of God would turn to sound doctrine and not be a cult anymore.

My prayer may not have been the only factor; but it does go to show that when fasting is added to prayer, there is a certain power that accompanies it. In those days the Lord answered in the affirmative just about everything that I asked Him to do; and did what I requested.

I think Herbert’s children turned it around after he died

 

[justbyfaith]

I think Herbert’s children turned it around after he died

That is what I heard.

 

[amadeus]

1 John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Even though that verse is not found in the majority of NT manuscripts, it's still easy to back up by Scripture, simply because Jesus Himself said that He is God (John 8).

Did He? In which verse does He say that? The 8th chapter has 59 verses.

In any case, I never said that Jesus was not God. On the contrary... Perhaps you are looking for this verse:

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." Heb 1:8

Jesus' Name in Matthew 1 is "Emmanuel", meaning 'God with us', and either one believes it or they don't.

Before arguing with a person you should read carefully what he has said. Of course I agree that in Jesus, God was/is certain with us. But, who is Jesus?

I love the example my Lord Jesus gave in Matthew 22 with asking the blind Pharisees why David in spirit showed God called Jesus Lord...

Matt 22:41-46
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,

42 Saying, "What think ye of Christ? whose son is he?" They say unto Him, "The Son of David."

43 He saith unto them, "How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

44 'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?'

45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?"

46 And no man was able to answer Him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask Him any more questions.
KJV

So what have you said that disagrees with what I have said? You have quoted the scriptures and I agree with the scriptures. Lots of people quote the scriptures and disagree. Where have we disagreed? Apparently we do, but you haven't touched on any part of that which I am able to see.

How can anyone read their Bible and not understand that Jesus is God, and that there is more than one Person in The Godhead?

Apparently you presume that all people are the same. In some measure certainly, but we definitely do not all receive the same things from our reading of the Bible or we would all agree on every point. That is not how it is.

As to saying that there is one or more than one or three again obviously to anyone there are disagreements among Bible students. If you believe all who disagree with you are wrong, what would suggest to get your opponents to join you?

Jesus knew about the problem, but because men had to make up their own minds as who would direct their hearts, He could not fix the problem. Is this not really the reason that He wept?

Isa 9:6-7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
KJV

John 1:1-5
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by Him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In Him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
KJV

John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou Me with Thine Own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.
KJV

Col 1:14-18
14 In Whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him:
17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
18 And He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
KJV

Heb 1:8
8 But unto the Son He saith, 'Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom.'
KJV

Ex 3:14
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.'
KJV

John 8:58
58 Jesus said unto them, 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.'
KJV

I read the same Bible version from which you took your quotations and yet you say that you disagree with me on something. You have not pinpointed the disagreements you have with me. I could have cited precisely the same verses. Hmmm, and your purpose is...?