No Heaven if you don't mortify the deeds of the flesh

[justbyfaith]

I'm sorry, but this mentality leads to a serious error in basic exegesis. This is, essentially, what all the cults do; pull one verse, or one passage that suits their beliefs, out of scripture and waves it before the people alone. Scripture needs to be understood together. James cannot be understood correctly without Paul. We cannot say that James is MORE correct than Paul, and so ignore what Paul has to say on the subject, or vise versa. We have to unite both texts until they harmonize, and only in this way may we build a proper and complete doctrine on the subject.

While we must compare scripture with scripture in order to get the complete teaching of the Holy Ghost, I do believe that every scripture verse/passage stands on its own as a bastion of truth.

Otherwise you cannot read the holy scriptures and get the proper understanding apart from knowing the whole Bible and how every verse applies to every other verse in their immediate and topical context. Which would take more than a lifetime; and thus no one would be saved since it would take more than a lifetime to understand the salvation message.

I do not deny that understanding verses in their context can add to our understanding of what they mean; but I also believe that we can receive the Lord's message to us by reading any single verse or passage of scripture even without understanding it in its context (whether immediate or topical).

 

[justbyfaith]

I was also saying that I believe that the scripture in the OP does not teach salvation by works (as it cannot; for scripture cannot contradict itself); even though you, in looking at it considered that that is indeed what it was teaching.

It is impossible that the OP's scripture could be teaching salvation by works. For Ephesians 2:8-9 is clear that salvation is not of works; and therefore if the scripture in the OP is teaching salvation by works, it is contradictory to other scripture. Which simply cannot be.

 

[justbyfaith]

We cannot fulfill the lusts of the flesh and deceive ourselves in to believing that we will inherit God's Kingdom too.

Colossians 3
[5] Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
[6] For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
[7] In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
[8] But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
[9] Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
[10] And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

An answer is that the only way we can mortify those aspects of sin spoken of in the passage above is through the grace of the Lord...that we do it because we are filled with the Holy Spirit and because it is the Lord who works within us both to will and to do according to His good pleasure...which is all of grace.

Therefore, it may be that your concept of grace may be off-base, @Naomi25. It is not mere forgiveness and Christ paying the penalty for our sin(s); it is also the enabling power of the Lord to live a life that is pleasing to Him.

1Sa 15:22, And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

 

[justbyfaith]

1Pe 5:10, But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
1Pe 5:11, To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1Pe 5:12, By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.

 

[Stan B]

Stan, I can't even begin to rationalize the slobbering of ignorance you are dripping upon your keyboard. When the leader of the Vineyard realized Toronto had gone off the tracks, he openly and loudly denounced them and disavowed any further association.

Hey!! I haven't even started! This demonic Kundalini Vineyard cult is not at all unique to Toronto. Try Bethel Church, Redding, California with their Vineyard cult, lying on tombstones, soaking up the spirits of the dead!!

From the very first one of your postings, I instinctively knew, that what you were saying was not coming from the same Spirit I have known for the past 70 years.

 

[Naomi25]

While we must compare scripture with scripture in order to get the complete teaching of the Holy Ghost, I do believe that every scripture verse/passage stands on its own as a bastion of truth.

Otherwise you cannot read the holy scriptures and get the proper understanding apart from knowing the whole Bible and how every verse applies to every other verse in their immediate and topical context.

I do not deny that understanding verses in their context can add to our understanding of what they mean; but I also believe that we can receive the Lord's message to us by reading any single verse of scripture even without understanding it in its context (whether immediate or topical).

I think there is a difference between being 'true' and being 'right'. All of God's word is true, obviously, but for us to understand it rightly, it cannot just be taken one verse at a time. Consider:

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. -James 2:24

We could easily say, and in fact many people have, that this verse tells us that it is NOT faith that saves, but works. But when we add in what Paul says on the subject of faith and works:

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. -Romans 3:28

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. -Romans 11:6

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. -Ephesians 2:8–9

So, with Pauls resounding declarations firm in our mind, we can look again at James:

So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. -James 2:17–18

We can see that James is not really arguing for a works only salvation, but a salvation that bears fruit. No true salvation remains flat and empty...it could not be a true salvation otherwise. Paul puts this in a theological framework:

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. -Ephesians 2:10

Yes, God calls us to good works, borne out of our salvation. But it is not something to earns our salvation or keeps it.
Thus we see that a single verse can lead people astray...or people can use single verses to lead others astray. It is harder to do that if we keep counsel with all of scripture; building our doctrines from what the bible says about a subject in its entirety. Of course the single verses that evil people use to decieve are still true, but they are still not the complete picture God wishes us to see.

 

[justbyfaith]

At least you admit that the verses are still true. And I have also said that we can gain added insight into them by understanding their immediate and topical contexts. I would say, however, that every verse still stands alone as a bastion of truth.

James 2:24 can be understood all by its lonesome; it helps to add Romans 4:2 to its understanding: and to realize that being justified by works in scripture is before man and not before the Lord. Since the term "justify" means "to declare righteous"...a man is declared righteous before man because of his works. And of course, before the Lord, a man is declared righteous through his faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. Because man looks on the outward appearance; but God looks on the heart.

I would say that it is still accurate to understand James' statement that we are justified by works as a verse that stands on its own as biblical truth and therefore must be fully reconciled with other scripture when you come across scripture that appears to contradict it.

The Holy Ghost teaches when we compare spiritual thing with spiritual. However, I must contend that each spiritual thing is basically true; else the conclusion that you might make from comparing truths would also be invalid.

 

[Willie T]

Hey!! I haven't even started! This demonic Kundalini Vineyard cult is not at all unique to Toronto. Try Bethel Church, Redding, California with their Vineyard cult, lying on tombstones, soaking up the spirits of the dead!!

From the very first one of your postings, I instinctively knew, that what you were saying was not coming from the same Spirit I have known for the past 70 years.

That is pure frightened ignorance! You can't even distinguish one from the other. It is obvious that if someone doesn't do what you approve of, then you have to denigrate them. You're just a modern day Pharisee. And I pray to God I NEVER follow the spirit that leads you.

 

[justbyfaith]

Wasn't there a situation in the Old Testament wherein the body of someone was laid upon the bones of a prophet and immediately was raised from the dead?

 

[Willie T]

Wasn't there a situation in the Old Testament wherein the body of someone was laid upon the bones of a prophet and immediately was raised from the dead?

2 Kings 13:21

 

[Willie T]

"Yes" Bethel is strange to me, too. But, we are treading on very thin ice when we start making hateful declarations that things others do are not even in the Bible. (Especially when we are espousing the hyped-up promo videos of a man who is only trying to sell his books.)

 

[Davy]

I guess the skepticism is just because the only place most of us ever find "perfect" people is when we see them typing from some remote computer online. LOL It might be interesting to follow some of these "New Men" around for a week or so, and see just how perfect their lives really are.

The command is for us to 'be ye therefore perfect', even though we well know we cannot be while in this flesh, because there can only ever be but one Jesus Christ Who was born in the flesh and was perfect, without sin. We are to strive... to be perfect without sin. But like Apostle Paul showed in Romans 7, there is a law in our fleshy members that causes us to sin, even though our inner man delights in the spiritual law of God.

Rom 7:14-25
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV

Should we just stop there with that last Rom.7:25 verse and draw conclusions there? NO! Why not? Because it could lead to ignorance in thinking Paul was saying it's OK for our flesh to follow the law of sin even though at the same time we believe on Christ and our inner man follows The Spirit. That is the false state those who reject 1 John 1 and Luke 11 are in. Since they have believed on Jesus, they turn a blind eye to the continuing sins in the flesh, and say that is Christ's redemption. It is not!

Paul continues the subject in Romans 8...

Rom 8:1-8
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His Own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
KJV

Sorry folks, but Apostle Paul showed there the SAME CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE that he showed in Galatians 5, which is, that IF... we walk by The Spirit, then we won't be doing the works of the flesh. But IF... we do NOT walk by The Spirit, then we will be doing the works of the flesh instead, and thus NOT walking by The Spirit.

It's simple:
1. don't do works of the flesh = Walk in The Spirit.
2. do works of the flesh = NOT in The Spirit.

If one can't really grasp the full gist of this, here it is. Eventually, YOU... WE... ALL OF US... will no longer have a flesh body. The type body of the future world to come is a "spiritual body" as the NT teaches. This is why Apostle Paul (and other NT authors) contrasted flesh vs. Spirit so sharply. Your flesh body is NOT... the real 'you'. The real 'you' is inside... your flesh body, and it leaves at flesh death, goes back to God Who gave it (like Eccl.12:5-7 shows). You're flesh body is of the earth, of this material world. Your spirit with soul is NOT made of the material matter of this present world.

So when God's Word is comparing differences between flesh and Spirit, it is talking about two different worlds, or dimensions of existence, for example the earthly vs. the heavenly.

The part of us that becomes "a new creature" in Christ Jesus is our spirit, not our flesh. As Paul later says, if through the Spirit we mortify the deeds of the body (flesh), we shall live (eternally).

I cannot put it any more simply than to say, as Christians, we are supposed to be preparing ourselves (our spirit) for the world to come without flesh. A flesh body is of this present world, not the future world when Jesus returns. This is why Paul also said in Romans 6 those who are dead are freed from sin.

 

[Willie T]

One thing many people miss is that the word, translated "perfect" in the old English, did not mean what we take it to mean today. It meant to be "complete" in our efforts, not neglecting any of the things we should apply in our lives.

 

[Davy]

One thing many people miss is that the word, translated "perfect" in the old English, did not mean what we take it to mean today. It meant to be "complete" in our efforts, not neglecting any of the things we should apply in our lives.

No, it means what the CONTEXT of Scripture shows it to mean, as written. And that is against what you're trying to say.

 

[Willie T]

No, it means what the CONTEXT of Scripture shows it to mean, as written. And that is against what you're trying to say.

Are you saying you can attain the perfection of God? We "strive" for it by neglecting nothing that we have available to us... by being "complete" in our efforts.

 

[Waiting on him]

Are you saying you can attain the perfection of God?

I hold the opinion as of now,that within you @Willie T indwells the full Godhead
This only in my opinion is perfection.

 

[Willie T]

I hold the opinion as of now,that within you @Willie T indwells the full Godhead
This only in my opinion is perfection.

That would about cover it.

 

[Waiting on him]

That would about cover it.

I believe many times people want to attribute perfection to completion, but are they the same

 

[Davy]

I believe many times people want to attribute perfection to completion, but are they the same

It is vanity to even want to debate such a false assumption that we can be perfect while in this flesh. The context of Scripture does not allow such a thought. According to Apostle Paul we are reckon ourselves dead to sin, IF we are in Christ, but at the same time to reckon means to suppose, when the reality is that while in this flesh we will still have sin at times.

 

[Waiting on him]

It is vanity to even want to debate such a false assumption that we can be perfect while in this flesh. The context of Scripture does not allow such a thought. According to Apostle Paul we are reckon ourselves dead to sin, IF we are in Christ, but at the same time to reckon means to suppose, when the reality is that while in this flesh we will still have sin at times.

Love is the bond of perfectness.