Spirit Power: A Neglected Basic of Faith

[Waiting on him]

Good. I was concerned by some of your questions.

What about circumcising?

 

[CharismaticLady]

What about circumcising?

You already know the answer.

 

[Waiting on him]

You already know the answer.

I’m not charismatic.

 

[Waiting on him]

Am I?

 

[CharismaticLady]

I’m not charismatic.

You are if you have the Holy Spirit. :)

 

[ScottA]

1 Corinthians 4:19-20 may be the most important of the neglected texts on spirituality:

"I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and will find out not the [God] talk of these arrogant people but their power. For the kingdom of God depends not on [God] talk but on power."

Notice what Paul does not say; he does not say that kingdom of God depends on faith and love, but rather on demonstrable Spirit power. He treats correct God talk (theology) as the relative booby prize that offers just enough spirituality to inoculate one against the real thing--the spiritual experience of divine power.

Paul does not articulate here the parameters of this experience of power. But elsewhere he makes it clear that this experience is evidentially demonstrable:

"My speech and my [Gospel] proclamation were not with plausible words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom but on power (1 Corinthians 2:4-5)."

The supernaturally demonstrable nature of this experience suggests that it cannot be limited to inner assurance of salvation, the fruit of the Spirit, or transformed lives. Rather, it includes clearly miraculous experiences of power:

"Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? Did you experience so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? Well then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the Law or by your believing what you heard (Galatians 3:3-5)?"

The model provided by the Book of Acts suggests that speaking in tongues and ecstatic prophesying are at least included as intended demonstrations of Spirit power. But we must not infer from the experiential pattern in Acts that speaking in tongues is a necessary condition for claiming Spirit baptism. Precise delineation of this Spirit power is impossible due to the many ways the Spirit can perform demonstrable "miracles."

The uncertain parameters of this experience of Spirit power has led to a watering down of the Spirit's role in experientially initiating the seeker into the life of faith and thus a watering down of the supernatural implications of Jesus' promise in John 14:12-13):

"Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact will do greater works than these because I am going to the Father. I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

Jesus' promise here means much more than the Spirit's role in Gentile conversions.

So much of the modern Pentecostal/ Charismatic movement is hampered by an unwillingness to subject their manifestations (especially messages in tongues) to the gift of spiritual discernment that I doubt that this movement as a whole fulfills Paul's vision of life in the Spirit. I say this as someone raised in Pentecostalism, who has experienced most of the gifts of the Spirit. A proper understanding of Paul's vision as evidenced in the quoted texts is in my view a key to the possibility of a massive revival that the world desperately needs.

Most so called Christians will smile and nod their head and cheer on talk of the Spirit, then tear the very idea down at every turn lifting up the flesh and the world. And if the point is pressed, the fangs and the fiery darts come out, and the name-calling begins. "Heretic" is their favorite.

These are those who's predecessors killed the prophets.

So...let me call you brave, before they call you stupid.

Thanks--great topic!

 

[Enoch111]

You are if you have the Holy Spirit. :)

Technically you are correct. But in reality Charismatics (as we know them and their claims) are the *first class* citizens of the Kingdom of God.;) The rest of us have to go to the back of the bus.

Anyway, back to the OP: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. (Rom 14:17) This is the power of the Holy Spirit working within Christians.

 

[Windmill Charge]

1 Corinthians 4:19-20 may be the most important of the neglected texts on spirituality:

"I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and will find out not the [God] talk of these arrogant people but their power. For the kingdom of God depends not on [God] talk but on power."

Notice what Paul does not say; he does not say that kingdom of God depends on faith and love, but rather on demonstrable Spirit power. He treats correct God talk (theology) as the relative booby prize that offers just enough spirituality to inoculate one against the real thing--the spiritual experience of divine power.

Paul does not articulate here the parameters of this experience of power. But elsewhere he makes it clear that this experience is evidentially demonstrable:

"My speech and my [Gospel] proclamation were not with plausible words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom but on power (1 Corinthians 2:4-5)."

The supernaturally demonstrable nature of this experience suggests that it cannot be limited to inner assurance of salvation, the fruit of the Spirit, or transformed lives. Rather, it includes clearly miraculous experiences of power:

"Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? Did you experience so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? Well then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the Law or by your believing what you heard (Galatians 3:3-5)?"

The model provided by the Book of Acts suggests that speaking in tongues and ecstatic prophesying are at least included as intended demonstrations of Spirit power. But we must not infer from the experiential pattern in Acts that speaking in tongues is a necessary condition for claiming Spirit baptism. Precise delineation of this Spirit power is impossible due to the many ways the Spirit can perform demonstrable "miracles."

The uncertain parameters of this experience of Spirit power has led to a watering down of the Spirit's role in experientially initiating the seeker into the life of faith and thus a watering down of the supernatural implications of Jesus' promise in John 14:12-13):

"Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact will do greater works than these because I am going to the Father. I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

Jesus' promise here means much more than the Spirit's role in Gentile conversions.

So much of the modern Pentecostal/ Charismatic movement is hampered by an unwillingness to subject their manifestations (especially messages in tongues) to the gift of spiritual discernment that I doubt that this movement as a whole fulfills Paul's vision of life in the Spirit. I say this as someone raised in Pentecostalism, who has experienced most of the gifts of the Spirit. A proper understanding of Paul's vision as evidenced in the quoted texts is in my view a key to the possibility of a massive revival that the world desperately needs.

Everyone focus's in on power, but read the chapter, read the book, Paul is not focused on power but on the practical outworking of love.

How does the gospel spread, through wonderful miracles or through the careful nurturing of those who have questions and problems and the powerful demonstration of Jesus's love at work in peoples lives?

That is where you will see the spirit powerfully moving.
When Christians get involved in other peoples lives to help them.

 

[Berserk]

Windmillcharge :"Everyone focus's in on power, but read the chapter, read the book, Paul is not focused on power but on the practical outworking of love."

Your response nicely illustrates the wisdom of scholar B. F. Wescott's famous words:
"The simple Gospel is no so simple as the simple would have you suppose."
You forget that Paul can walk and chew gum at the same time! In other words, he stresses the initial importance of supernatural "power" and then the need for apape love as evidence of the Spirit as the source of that power.
True, elsewhere Paul can say, "The kingdom of God is...righteousness and joy and peace in the Holy Spirit (Romans 14:17)." But in that context he is discussing the ethics of the way kingdom people relate to others (14:18), not the Spirit foundation for entering the kingdom. That, he claims, is not based on ethical conduct, but on supernatural power. In this respect, readers should detect in Windmillcharge ducks the OP's 4 texts a typical way these shocking texts are typically ducked and ignored.

Windmillcharge: "How does the gospel spread, through wonderful miracles or through the careful nurturing of those who have questions and problems and the powerful demonstration of Jesus's love at work in peoples lives?"

You are offering your preconceived answer without heeding Paul's own answer. He explicitly says that the Gospel spread in Corinth through "the demonstration of the Spirit and of power (1 Corinthians 2:4-5)."

Windmillcharge: "That is where you will see the spirit powerfully moving.
When Christians get involved in other peoples lives to help them."

Again, you are blinded by your own preconceptions of what Paul should be saying when in fact he connects the initial work of the Spirit with a "demonstration" of "power" and "miracles (Galatians 3:3-5)." The unchurched have gotten a whiff of what you are advocating, see through it as an inflated spiritual self-image, and are fleeing the church. By contrast, when seekers like myself see the Spirit operate in miraculous power, they are drawn to Christ's kingdom. Indeed, that's why I'm a Christian and it's why Shane, a skeptical young man (age 30) was recently gloriously saved through the healing of his malignant brain turnor in response to the prayers of our weekly prayer group and perhaps others. btw, his healing was the 2nd brain tumor to be healed in response to our prayers within a month!

 

[Waiting on him]

Everyone focus's in on power, but read the chapter, read the book, Paul is not focused on power but on the practical outworking of love.

How does the gospel spread, through wonderful miracles or through the careful nurturing of those who have questions and problems and the powerful demonstration of Jesus's love at work in peoples lives?

That is where you will see the spirit powerfully moving.
When Christians get involved in other peoples lives to help them.

Many people out there that have very little faith. They need some miraculous event they can observe with their eyes, but we don’t walk by sight, but faith.
For all those seeking a sign, let this be a sign as to who you are with your walk in Christ.

John 6:28-30 KJV
[28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? [29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. [30] They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?


Tecarta Bible
No sign just believe

 

[Berserk]

Jesus, like Paul, refutes your false alternatives:
"But if you do not, then believe me because of the works (miracles) themselves (John 14:11)."

 

[Waiting on him]

Jesus, like Paul, refutes your false alternatives:
"But if you do not, then believe me because of the works (miracles) themselves (John 14:11)."

I don’t need to see to believe.

 

[Waiting on him]

John 6:65-66 KJV
[65] And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. [66] From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

And they saw the miraculous.
Tecarta Bible

 

[Berserk]

I don’t need to see to believe.

Neither do Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. Millions of Mormons have prayer this prayer and felt an inner witness that the Holy Spirit has confirmed their faith in the Book of Mormon. Your subjective faith is trapped on the same level. Thinking people rightly need evidence for faith.

“And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost (Moroni: 10:4)."

 

[Waiting on him]

Neither do Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. Millions of Mormons have prayer this prayer and felt an inner witness that the Holy Spirit has confirmed their faith in the Book of Mormon. Your subjective faith is trapped on the same level. Thinking people rightly need evidence for faith.

“And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost (Moroni: 10:4)."

So you guys walk by sight?

 

[Heart2Soul]

Everyone focus's in on power, but read the chapter, read the book, Paul is not focused on power but on the practical outworking of love.

How does the gospel spread, through wonderful miracles or through the careful nurturing of those who have questions and problems and the powerful demonstration of Jesus's love at work in peoples lives?

That is where you will see the spirit powerfully moving.
When Christians get involved in other peoples lives to help them.

Paul had such a powerful anointing on him that when he prayed over handkerchiefs the people would take them to the sick and even demon possessed and then would be healed and set free.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Are you referring to the mosaic laws?

In reading this again I don't think you recognized that I was actually quoting scripture in Romans 8:2. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ has freed us from the law of sin and death.

The law of sin and death is the "ministry of death" of 2 Corinthians 3:7-11. The baptism of the Holy Spirit gives us the law of the Spirit of life in Christ. As you walk in the Spirit, you do not fulfill the lust of the flesh, and therefore are not under the Old Testament law. With the Spirit guiding you with love, you do not have any desire to break the Ten Commandments or ordinances, and the Spirit reveals what Jesus fulfilled as far as foreshadows that we are not under in Him either.

 

[CharismaticLady]

For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. (Rom 14:17) This is the power of the Holy Spirit working within Christians.

I agree, the Spirit-filled have that in abundance. I like this promise, and know it is true and confirms that if I endure this way to the end, that I will be in heaven, and that is 1 John 3:21-23. All of my prayers are answered. But for the 1st 30 years of my life of church going, but without the Spirit, not one of my prayers were answered.

 

[Berserk]

I agree, the Spirit-filled have that in abundance. I like this promise, and know it is true and confirms that if I endure this way to the end, that I will be in heaven, and that is 1 John 3:21-23. All of my prayers are answered. But for the 1st 30 years of my life of church going, but without the Spirit, not one of my prayers were answered.

No, Paul labels joy and peace "fruit of the Spirit" (Galatians 5:22-23), but he teaches that the kingdom of God depends on "power (q Cprinthians 4:20)," conceived in terms of "miracles" (so Galatians 3:3-5) and an evidential "demonstration" of that "power" (1 Cprinthians 4:19-20).

 

[CharismaticLady]

No, Paul labels joy and peace "fruit of the Spirit" (Galatians 5:22-23), but he teaches that the kingdom of God depends on "power (q Cprinthians 4:20)," conceived in terms of "miracles" (so Galatians 3:3-5) and an evidential "demonstration" of that "power" (1 Cprinthians 4:19-20).

Enoch doesn't believe. I do, but I didn't want to rub it in that the gifts of the Spirit are alive and well on planet earth. How do you think 100% of my prayers are answered? Prophecy. I never pray for myself, unless He first tells me what to pray for, I repeat His words, and the prayer is answered miraculously. And prophecy is just the tip of the iceberg.

Mark 16:16-18