Why do we need priests?

[Enoch111]

They depend more on their church than on their God.

All cults depend more on their church and its teachings than on God and His written Word. The cult of Mary is clearly the most important part of the Catholic church.

APOSTASY ALERT: POPE FRANCIS CROWNS STATUE OF MARY AS “QUEEN OF HEAVEN”
February 14, 2018 By Beginning and End

Continuing his string of unbiblical and heretical proclamations, Pope Francis crowned a statue of Mary and proclaimed her “Queen of Heaven” before a packed crowd of adoring onlookers in Chile. The Pope’s elevation of Mary as a deity to be prayed to is not only wildly heretical but is just one of the many serious spiritual errors of his Roman Catholic doctrine.

[Here is what he said (in part)]: “[T]he virgin who wanted to be called Your handmaid was chosen mother of the Redeemer, and true mother of all the living, and now exalted above the choirs of the angels, reigns gloriously with Your Son interceding for all men as an advocate of grace and queen of mercy,” he prayed during mass, moments before crowning the statue.
Apostasy Alert: Pope Francis Crowns Statue of Mary As “Queen of Heaven”

PSALM 99 [MARY EXCLUDED]
1 The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the cherubims; let the earth be moved.
2 The LORD is great in Zion; and he is high above all the people.
3 Let them praise thy great and terrible name; for it is holy.
4 [God, who is ] The king's strength also loveth judgment; thou dost establish equity, thou executest judgment and righteousness in Jacob.
5 Exalt ye the LORD our God, and worship at his footstool; for he is holy.
6 Moses and Aaron among his priests, and Samuel among them that call upon his name; they called upon the LORD, and he answered them.
7 He spake unto them in the cloudy pillar: they kept his testimonies, and the ordinance that he gave them.
8 Thou answeredst them, O LORD our God: thou wast a God that forgavest them, though thou tookest vengeance of their inventions.
9 Exalt the LORD our God, and worship at his holy hill; for the LORD our God is holy.

Does Mary reign in Heaven? Not according to the Bible. Only God reigns in Heaven.

 

[Giuliano]

No, you did not say he was pagan.

You said he was "heavily influenced by pagan thinking".

What does that mean?

Curious Mary

Please read the article if you're interested.

 

[CovenantPromise]

I agree that we need churches.
Many times I've said that, as humans, we need an institution just so we could keep the glue tight and stay together.

What I'm saying is that we should not put our FAITH into that institution...
our faith goes to God. When Jesus gave the Great Commission, of course we'd need places to baptize, assemble ourselves, and learn from those who teach. I just find that my catholic friends speak about the church all the time and not too much about God.

I also agree that the Holy Spirit does not teach us everything but He surely helps us to understand. There are scholars and theologians to teach us...they know biblical knowledge much more than we do here on these threads.

I do, however, have some of my own beliefs that I could not reconcile with church teaching. I don't believe purgatory exists...I don't believe it's necessary to confess to a priest unless one wants to. If God could forgive a venial sin, He is also capable of forgiving a mortal sin.

As to schismatics:
WHO is the schismatic??
Some believe this pope is.

Really ? Where does it say mortal sin is forgivable? Question do you know the difference between Mortal sin and Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? Do both denote being cut off from God- DEAD TO GOD or are they different? We know blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin, we also know we are not to pray for someone in mortal sin.
1John 5:16-18
Effective Prayer
…16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin(venial) not leading to death(Mortal sin state), he should ask God, who will give life to those who commit this kind of sin (Venial sin). So clearly LIFE can not be given to one in MORTAL sin, the scriptures say so.

There is a sin that leads to death (Mortal sin state); I am not saying he should ask regarding that sin( Mortal sin). 17All unrighteousness is sin, yet there is sin (venial)that does not lead to death. 18We know that anyone born of God does not keep on sinning; the One who was born of God protects him, and the evil one cannot touch him.…

Mortal means a wound which kills-mortal blow, fatal, life ending. The death it leads to- is the soul being cut off from the grace of God. The sin which LEADS to death is MORTAL sin, GET IT. It leads to a spiritual death=BEING CUT OF FROM GOD? It is the UNFORGIVABLE SIN- BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Yeah I know a priest in this can still be a minister of the faith, and offer up the Body and Blood of Christ NOOOT! Yeah, according to the replacement theologians in here and throughout the Catholic Church satan's seed serves God .
No one truly born of God ends up in mortal sin.
1 John 5:
Concluding Remarks

18We know that anyone born of God does not keep on sinning;(THEREFORE, CAN NOT END UP IN MORTAL SIN) the One(Christ) who was born of God protects him, and the evil one cannot touch him. 19We know that we are of God, and that the whole world is under the power of the evil one. 20And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true—in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
21Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

It's interesting......the scriptures are sooooo clear and the meaning of words are sooooo clear. To call a type of sin MORTAL, means death and the scriptures reveal that there is a sin which leads to the death of the soul-BEING cut OFF from God. And yet because of foot notes and coaching by obviously illiterate people, so many just march to the beat of those ordained and trained in this poppycock. It would seem clear to any mildly intelligent person that such a novice is not being coached by the Holy Spirit. Rather, is being coached by fallible men and those fallible men are not men of God but children of satan.
1 John 3:
Children of God
…9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother. 11This is the message you have heard from the beginning: We should love one another.…
To practice sin is like to practice anything else in life; soccer , baseball , dancing , piano etc......... It is willful and contrived loved and planned. With full knowledge of what is right it delights in what is wrong. I argue, one who practices a sport or music etc, does so to be good at it, just as one who practices sin and becomes talented in the art of deception. That is the path of death(satan) called mortal sin , the path which end is hell.

Anyone defending the doctrine that a priest in Mortal Sin can serve God is the devils advocate and too ends up in the same state as the one who he or she defends. That is according to scripture alone.
Psalm 1:1-2
1Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, or set foot on the path of sinners, or sit in the seat of mockers. 2But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on His law he meditates day and night.…

To mock the prophets of God is to walk in the counsel of the wicked.

Psalm 5:9
For not a word they speak can be trusted; destruction is within them. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.

Psalm 5:10
Declare them guilty, O God; let them fall by their own devices. Drive them out for their many transgressions, for they have rebelled against You.

Psalm 10:2
In pride the wicked pursue the needy; let them be caught in the schemes they devise.

Psalm 73:8
They mock and speak with malice; with arrogance they threaten oppression.

 

[ScottA]

That is not what you simply said. You simply said, in so many words, according to what is revealed by "our Father who is in heaven" has been given to you directly by God. Therefore everybody else is wrong, especially the historic institutional Church, and you are not. You keep saying the spirit makes you infallible.

That's a big one (for you if not otherwise), so...okay:

Yeah, sure, that is exactly the circumstances and how these times have been foretold to occur.

But from the beginning of Christ building His church, even the other apostles would have been wrong to do what you are now doing. If they heard Peter answer Jesus saying that He was the Christ, the other apostles could have said to him, "I doubt you are special. Why should we listen to you?" And his correct response would have been, "You are correct, I might even be the least among you. But the Father has revealed to me what is true, and if He has not done the same for you, that is His choice and His doing according to His own will. Therefore, what manner of envy is this in you that you would question and be against what Christ has overseen?"

And that is my answer to you also.

 

[CovenantPromise]

All cults depend more on their church and its teachings than on God and His written Word. The cult of Mary is clearly the most important part of the Catholic church.

APOSTASY ALERT: POPE FRANCIS CROWNS STATUE OF MARY AS “QUEEN OF HEAVEN”
February 14, 2018 By Beginning and End

Continuing his string of unbiblical and heretical proclamations, Pope Francis crowned a statue of Mary and proclaimed her “Queen of Heaven” before a packed crowd of adoring onlookers in Chile. The Pope’s elevation of Mary as a deity to be prayed to is not only wildly heretical but is just one of the many serious spiritual errors of his Roman Catholic doctrine.

[Here is what he said (in part)]: “[T]he virgin who wanted to be called Your handmaid was chosen mother of the Redeemer, and true mother of all the living, and now exalted above the choirs of the angels, reigns gloriously with Your Son interceding for all men as an advocate of grace and queen of mercy,” he prayed during mass, moments before crowning the statue.
Apostasy Alert: Pope Francis Crowns Statue of Mary As “Queen of Heaven”

PSALM 99 [MARY EXCLUDED]
1 The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the cherubims; let the earth be moved.
2 The LORD is great in Zion; and he is high above all the people.
3 Let them praise thy great and terrible name; for it is holy.
4 [God, who is ] The king's strength also loveth judgment; thou dost establish equity, thou executest judgment and righteousness in Jacob.
5 Exalt ye the LORD our God, and worship at his footstool; for he is holy.
6 Moses and Aaron among his priests, and Samuel among them that call upon his name; they called upon the LORD, and he answered them.
7 He spake unto them in the cloudy pillar: they kept his testimonies, and the ordinance that he gave them.
8 Thou answeredst them, O LORD our God: thou wast a God that forgavest them, though thou tookest vengeance of their inventions.
9 Exalt the LORD our God, and worship at his holy hill; for the LORD our God is holy.

Does Mary reign in Heaven? Not according to the Bible. Only God reigns in Heaven.

No Mary is not exclude and how anyone could deduce that from Psalm 99 is out of his mind. Carry on.
As for Jorge he can crown statues all he wants
God knows his heart and knows what going through the motions looks like. But you are duped and have no clue what truth looks like.

 

[Philip James]

There is a big problem catholics have.
They depend more on their church than on their God.

GG,
You know thats not correct...

We depend on God to guide, guard, teach, correct and preserve HIS Church.

And HE never contradicts Himself...

Glory be to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit! Forver and ever!

Peace be with you!

 

[epostle]

Would you agree that the authority of God supersedes that of the Catholic church? I would like a yes or no answer please. But I bet I won't get it.

It is not a "yes or no" question, because it has a false presupposition. I am not trying to prove you wrong, I am trying to enlighten you, make you think for yourself. Polemics of regurgitated fundamentalist propaganda doesn't cut it with me. Should I post my questions a third time? I can re-word them into "yes" or "no" questions, or "true or false" questions, if that suits you. Answering a question with a question is a more Jewish approach. It nurtures dialogue, which is better than scripture tennis.

 

[Giuliano]

GG,
You know thats not correct...

We depend on God to guide, guard, teach, correct and preserve HIS Church.

And HE never contradicts Himself...

Glory be to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit! Forver and ever!

Peace be with you!

God has His ways of surprising men. Sometimes when men think they have God figured out, they get a surprise. What about this:

Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord.
31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.
32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:
It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.

 

[Philip James]

What about this:

First thing that to came to mind was the Good Friday fast in honour of the atonement given for us on the Cross.

What do you think about it?

Peace!

 

[Giuliano]

First thing that to came to mind was the Good Friday fast in honour of the atonement given for us on the Cross.

What do you think about it?

Peace!

I can't see the connection with atonement since the Passover was not about the forgiveness of sins. My point was about how God can surprise us. . . .

 

[epostle]

That's a big one (for you if not otherwise), so...okay:
Yeah, sure, that is exactly the circumstances and how these times have been foretold to occur.
But from the beginning of Christ building His church, even the other apostles would have been wrong to do what you are now doing. If they heard Peter answer Jesus saying that He was the Christ, the other apostles could have said to him, "I doubt you are special. Why should we listen to you?" And his correct response would have been, "You are correct, I might even be the least among you. But the Father has revealed to me what is true, and if He has not done the same for you, that is His choice and His doing according to His own will. Therefore, what manner of envy is this in you that you would question and be against what Christ has overseen?"

And that is my answer to you also.

That is an evasion (again) and not a reply to what I said. You are adding to scripture because nowhere does scripture say the other Apostles were envious. I have about 70 verses clearly indicating Peter as leader of the Church, and spokesman for all the Apostles. Was it you that used the term "church of Judas"?

Matt. 16:18; 18:18 – Jesus uses the word “ecclesia” only twice in the New Testament Scriptures, which demonstrates that Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.

Acts 20:17,28 – Paul refers to both the elders or priests (“presbyteroi”) and the bishops (“episkopoi”) of the Church. Both are ordained leaders within the hierarchical structure of the Church.

1 Cor. 12:28 – God Himself appoints the various positions of authority within the Church. As a loving Father, God gives His children the freedom and authority to act with charity and justice to bring about His work of salvation.

Eph. 4:11 – the Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church. The Church is not an invisible entity with an invisible foundation.

Phil. 1:1 – Paul addresses the bishops and deacons of the Church. They can all trace their unbroken lineage back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:7 – Christ’s Church has bishops (“episkopoi”) who are direct successors of the apostles. The bishops can trace the authority conferred upon them back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14 – Christ’s Church also has elders or priests (“presbyteroi”) who serve the bishops.

1 Tim. 3:8 – Christ’s Church also has deacons (“diakonoi”). Thus, Jesus Christ’s Church has a hierarchy of authority – bishops, priests and deacons, who can all trace their lineage back to Peter and the apostles.

Exodus 28:1 and 19:6 – shows the three offices of the Old Testament priesthood:
(1). high priest – Aaron (Ex. 28:1);
(2). Ministerial priests – Aaron’s sons (Ex. 19:6; 28:1); and
(3). Universal priests – Israel (Ex. 19:6).
The New Testament priesthood also has three offices:
(1) High Priest – Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1);
(2) Ministerial priests – the ordained bishops and priests (Rom. 15:16; 1 Tim. 3:1,8; 5:17; Titus 1:7); and
(3) Universal priests – all the baptized (1 Pet. 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6).

These verses pose insurmountable problems for the do-it-yourself theologian.

 

[epostle]

No Mary is not exclude and how anyone could deduce that from Psalm 99 is out of his mind. Carry on.
As for Jorge he can crown statues all he wants
God knows his heart and knows what going through the motions looks like. But you are duped and have no clue what truth looks like.

I stand beside you with this post. Enoch's hatred for Catholicism borderlines the demonic, IMO.

 

[brakelite]

We depend on God to guide, guard, teach, correct and preserve HIS Church.

I think there is a very thin line you tread here. First, you are also relying on your church's leaders to be faithful and true to their calling. You are trusting that they are listening to the right voices themselves. You are somehow claiming that despite the frequent appalling behaviour of some of the popes and the corruptions that installed them and kept them in power, was in some way overlooked by God and there was an unbroken line of authority and blessing that emanates only from Rome.
Second, you are correct that God preserves HIS church...that does not necessarily mean that HIS church is yours. I have never met or spoken to a Catholic, in person or on line, who was willing to objectively look at churches, fellowships, even movements, that arose throughout Christian history that were absolutely genuinely raised and established by a work of God but that had no connections to Rome...even repudiated any authority that Rome presumed to exercise over them, thus becoming enemies to Rome and drawing to themselves the enmity and hatred of the Papacy who then used secular armies and hired mercenaries to wage war against them. Nearly all Catholics I have dealt with take their own church's opinion that they were all heretics, thus not worthy of discussion or attention. This attitude merely reinforces within the Catholic mind that the Catholic church was the only true church throughout history, that the Protestant reformation was a heretical movement, and the only place God was working for the past 2000 years was through a series of Roman bishops who history tells us were often worse in character and behaviour than their heathen neighbours.
God rejected Israel, His chosen first-born, because of infidelity and unbelief. Your confidence that He doesn't reject anyone else, be they church or individual for the same reasons, is greatly misplaced.

 

[ScottA]

That is an evasion (again) and not a reply to what I said. You are adding to scripture because nowhere does scripture say the other Apostles were envious.

You're making this too easy. I can't get past the first couple of sentences before I have to stop and correct you.

If my explanation was an "evasion", is was an evasion like Jesus did a hundred times with questions and parables. Thanks for the compliment!

But, no, I wasn't adding anything...I was giving a "for instance" example of how wrong your approach is. I was saying that what you are doing is as wrong "as if" the other apostles were envious of Peter. But you failed to see the error of your own conduct. You also failed in saying that the apostles were not envious of each other.

 

[brakelite]

I have about 70 verses clearly indicating Peter as leader of the Church

As one of several leaders, yes. But the leader? No, you don't have 70 verses supporting that.

 

[Philip James]

I can't see the connection with atonement since the Passover was not about the forgiveness of sins. My point was about how God can surprise us. . . .

Jesus' paschal mystery fulfills all the sacrifices of the old covenant, not just passover..

What did you find surprising?

 

[ScottA]

I have about 70 verses clearly indicating Peter as leader of the Church, and spokesman for all the Apostles.

Good. That many is still forgivable...but you are getting up there.

 

[ScottA]

Was it you that used the term "church of Judas"?

No, not me.

 

[Philip James]

Your confidence that He doesn't reject anyone else, be they church or individual for the same reasons, is greatly misplaced.

My confidence that HE will not reject HIS church and my confidence that HE will not allow HIS church to fall away from HIM are placed in HIS words 'the gates of hell will not prevail against it'

I know Jesus speaks Truth and thus I believe!

First, you are also relying on your church's leaders to be faithful and true to their calling. You are trusting that they are listening to the right voices themselves. You are somehow claiming that despite the frequent appalling behaviour of some of the popes and the corruptions that installed them and kept them in power, was in some way overlooked

Not at all.
I am relying on the Holy Spirit to preserve and pass on the Truth, despite the failings of men...

Faith brother! In Jesus, in His words, and in His Spirit!

Peace be with you!

 

[Giuliano]

Jesus' paschal mystery fulfills all the sacrifices of the old covenant, not just passover..

What did you find surprising?

I am not interested in pursuing that point. My point was that God can surprise people. Reading that passage from Leviticus, one could easily assume that the Aaronic priesthood would survive eternally in the original form.