Why do so many oppose imputed righteousness?

[Giuliano]

People oppose imputed righteousness because it makes them feel good to be accepted by God for their good works. They want to earn it. They want to deserve it.

God has no problem dealing with your sins. He has no provision for your righteousness. Does any really want to stand before God and Christ in their own righteousness?

Stranger

One could also say some people love imputed righteousness since they want God to accept them no matter how wretched they are and don't want to allow God to change them. "Yeah, I still want to steal and do other things; but God will still call me righteous. It's okay."

 

[Grailhunter]

The story of the rich man and Lazarus answers that question, I think. Jesus was not content to stay in Heaven when he saw misery on the earth; and that misery also grieved the Father. Jesus did it for love: Love for us and love for the Father. The Father allowed it since He knew it could end the problems and all would end well.

Who could argue...God so loved the world...You got that right! But also....
Who could argue...Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
Who could argue...for where there is no law there is no transgression.
Who could argue...He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Who could argue...we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Who could argue...by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Still they do. They reenact the same discussion that has been going on for 2000 years.
The same discussion that has fractured the Church.
The same discussion that has caused wars.

So someone should notice that this is not the correct set of questions or answers. Round and round they go.
So someone should notice that after all these years....they have been missing the point.
Big Elephants Can Always Understand Small Elephants
We are the big Elephants! After 2000 years of biblical study...historically we are the senior Christians.
Over and above all men before us!
Time to look at this with confidence that we can find the truth that harmonizes the scriptures.
For one, this circular logic is the definition of insanity.
And two, this is for new Christians to be confused about, not people that have been studying the Bible all their lives.
If they have not figured it out by now, they have been chasing their tails all this time. You know what happens to processionary caterpillars.
Don't follow in the footsteps of those that have given into picking a side, that has harmed Christianity.

 

[Giuliano]

Who could argue...God so loved the world...You got that right! But also....
Who could argue...Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
Who could argue...for where there is no law there is no transgression.
Who could argue...He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Who could argue...we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Who could argue...by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Still they do. They reenact the same discussion that has been going on for 2000 years.
The same discussion that has fractured the Church.
The same discussion that has caused wars.

So someone should notice that this is not the correct set of questions or answers. Round and round they go.
So someone should notice that after all these years....they have been missing the point.
Big Elephants Can Always Understand Small Elephants
We are the big Elephants! After 2000 years of biblical study...historically we are the senior Christians.
Over and above all men before us!
Time to look at this with confidence that we can find the truth that harmonizes the scriptures.
For one, this circular logic is the definition of insanity.
And two, this is for new Christians to be confused about, not people that have been studying the Bible all their lives.
If they have not figured it out by now, they have been chasing their tail all this time. You know what happens to processionary caterpillars.
Don't follow in the footsteps of those that have given into picking a side, that has harmed Christianity.

I think a lot of theological speculation is an attempt to dodge what we should know without being told:

Psalm 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

 

[Grailhunter]

I think a lot of theological speculation is an attempt to dodge what we should know without being told:

Psalm 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Right!
The mind can be conditioned.
You can make fleas believe that they can only jump so high. Put them in a jar with a lid and they will hit that lid so many times until they believe they can only jump so high. Take the lid off and they will either not jump or not jump high enough to get out of the jar.

For runners, the 4 minute mile was unachievable....until someone broke it. Then several knowing it could be done, continued on to break the 4 minute mile.

The details of the Bible have mezmerized their minds to the point that they cannot see the forest for the trees.
Those that wrote the NT may have figured it out, Paul was very smart. But he spent his time talking around the point. There is probably a reason for that.

God gave Solomon wisdom...and he had 1000 wives and concubines and built temples to, and worshiped Pagan gods. You cannot give wisdom, you have to earn it. Since I have been on the forum I have been trying to get people to think.

Good Christians that I love are here.
Smart Christians that are here.
They need to have confidence in themselves so that they can figure it out.
That confidence comes from within.
It can be figured out. The 4 minute mile has been broken!

 

[Giuliano]

The details of the Bible have mezmerized their minds to the point that they cannot see the forest for the trees.
Those that wrote the NT may have figured it out, Paul was very smart. But he spent his time talking around the point. There is probably a reason for that.

I agree about Paul; and it amazes me how many people base their theology mostly on what he wrote while neglecting other books; and that's after what Peter wrote about it, warning people. Paul comes out with gems from time to time; but much of the time, he's trying to be too logical about things in a convoluted way. I value logic, but not everything depends on logic. We shouldn't defy logic, but truth doesn't depend on it. If you want me to turn around and see a door behind me, just tell me that. I don't need a long logical explanation.

 

[farouk]

I agree about Paul; and it amazes me how many people base their theology mostly on what he wrote while neglecting other books; and that's after what Peter wrote about it, warning people. Paul comes out with gems from time to time; but much of the time, he's trying to be too logical about things in a convoluted way. I value logic, but not everything depends on logic. We shouldn't defy logic, but truth doesn't depend on it. If you want me to turn around and see a door behind me, just tell me that. I don't need a long logical explanation.

I think you are criticizing Scripture.

 

[Grailhunter]

I agree about Paul; and it amazes me how many people base their theology mostly on what he wrote while neglecting other books; and that's after what Peter wrote about it, warning people. Paul comes out with gems from time to time; but much of the time, he's trying to be too logical about things in a convoluted way. I value logic, but not everything depends on logic. We shouldn't defy logic, but truth doesn't depend on it. If you want me to turn around and see a door behind me, just tell me that. I don't need a long logical explanation.

Don't know what you mean about the door, but I am counting on you to help make them think. It is like they desire to argue about the scriptures. That figuring this out would be sacrilegious. If you don't learn from history, you are damned to repeat it.

 

[Stranger]

One could also say some people love imputed righteousness since they want God to accept them no matter how wretched they are and don't want to allow God to change them. "Yeah, I still want to steal and do other things; but God will still call me righteous. It's okay."

You don't have to like imputed righteousness. But it is the way it is. Scripture is clear as many have pointed out. The only reason anyone denies it, is because it grates against their self-righteousness.

If you want to stand before God in your own righteousness, go ahead.

God can deal with sins. He makes no provision for your righteousness. As I asked another, what is your righteousness to God? Answer: (Is. 64:6) Filthy rags. That is your righteousness, not your sins. Now go stand before God and Christ in your own righteousness.

Stranger

 

[Giuliano]

Don't know what you mean about the door, but I am counting on you to help make them think. It is like they desire to argue about the scriptures. That figuring this out would be sacrilegious. If you don't learn from history, you are damned to repeat it.

The "door" was just an example of how communicating some things effectively is just to state it. Paul seems to have difficulty coming to the point sometimes.

There is an element of avoiding things when reading the Bible. "Ever learning but never coming to the truth." When I read the Bible, I hope to find something that tells me I was wrong about something. How can I get to the truth if my mind is cluttered with untruths? It's like what Sherlock Holmes said, "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." The Bible itself says something similar that scripture is good for correction -- to me, that means correction for me and secondly for others.

Then there are people who are afraid to examine their beliefs. They think salvation depends on their hanging onto them. Odds are they won't change their minds about much.

 

[Giuliano]

You don't have to like imputed righteousness. But it is the way it is. Scripture is clear as many have pointed out. The only reason anyone denies it, is because it grates against their self-righteousness.

If you want to stand before God in your own righteousness, go ahead.

God can deal with sins. He makes no provision for your righteousness. As I asked another, what is your righteousness to God? Answer: (Is. 64:6) Filthy rags. That is your righteousness, not your sins. Now go stand before God and Christ in your own righteousness.

Stranger

I seriously suggest you reread Isaiah 64:6. It's describing people with iniquities who believe they are pure and righteous.

 

[Stranger]

I seriously suggest you reread Isaiah 64:6. It's describing people with iniquities who believe they are pure and righteous.

I suggest you read it. "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

Now, go stand before God with those filthy rags covering you and then be surprised at the response you get.

Stranger

 

[Giuliano]

I think you are criticizing Scripture.

Take it up with Peter.

2 Peter 3:5 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

It can be dangerous for some people to base their beliefs too much on Paul, yet people do it. They try to understand him, think they do and don't stop to think about what Jesus said on the topic. Some have even been led to think the book of James shouldn't be in the Bible because in their opinion, it conflicts with Paul.

 

[Giuliano]

I suggest you read it. "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

Now, go stand before God with those filthy rags covering you and then be surprised at the response you get.

Stranger

Yeah, their righteousness was pretend. What's the difficulty of understanding that? It reminds me of some Christians who have iniquities but pretend to be righteous claiming God made them so when they failed to repent so God could change them.

 

[farouk]

Take it up with Peter.

2 Peter 3:5 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

It can be dangerous for some people to base their beliefs too much on Paul, yet people do it. They try to understand him, think they do and don't stop to think about what Jesus said on the topic. Some have even been led to think the book of James shouldn't be in the Bible because in their opinion, it conflicts with Paul.

What Peter is doing is acknowledging that Paul had a deeper understanding than he, of some aspects of revelation.

 

[justbyfaith]

It seems to me that evangelicals believe we can be saved... Justified... On God's declaration alone... Without the new birth.

The new birth is indeed important...and those who are born of God "cannot sin" (1 John 3:9). But I will say again that it does not come about through works (Titus 3:5); but through faith alone in Jesus Christ (see Romans 5:2)

Every good seed in good soil produces good fruit, agreed?

Sometimes good seeds can be choked out by weeds.

As I asked another, what is your righteousness to God? Answer: (Is. 64:6) Filthy rags.

This is the righteousness of the law.

But there is also a righteousness which is of God by faith, Philippians 3:9.

It is defined thusly:

Rev 19:8, And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

 

[Giuliano]

What Peter is doing is acknowledging that Paul had a deeper understanding than he, of some aspects of revelation.

And that can lead to some people's destruction?

 

[Stranger]

Yeah, their righteousness was pretend. What's the difficulty of understanding that?

No, it doesn't say 'their' like a certain group. It says, "we are all". My how you pervert the Scriptures.

Paul later affirms the same. (Rom. 3:9-20)

And there is no 'pretend' in our righteousness. It is our righteousness. It is the good things we do. It is us obeying the Law. It is our righteousness. It is sick before God...nothing but rags. It is not our sins, it is not pretend, it is our righteousness which is as filthy rags before God.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Giuliano]

No, it doesn't say 'their' like a certain group. It says, "we are all". My how you pervert the Scriptures.

Paul later affirms the same. (Rom. 3:9-20)

And there is no 'pretend' in our righteousness. It is our righteousness. It is the good things we do. It is us obeying the Law. It is our righteousness. It is sick before God...nothing but rags. It is not our sins, it is not pretend, it is our righteousness which is as filthy rags before God.

Good-Ole-Rebel

If you want to play make believe, feel free. God can make people righteous; but if they don't want to repent, He doesn't.

 

[Stranger]

This is the righteousness of the law.

But there is also a righteousness which is of God by faith, Philippians 3:9.

It is defined thusly:

Rev 19:8, And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

And (Philippians 3:9) speaks to imputed righteousness.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

If you want to play make believe, feel free. God can make people righteous; but if they don't want to repent, He doesn't.

I'm offering your Scripture. You offer nothing but your self-righteous opinion. Why?

God does make people righteous. Through imputed righteousness. That is obtained when one places faith in Christ. The believer stands in the righteousness of Christ alone. You can go ahead and dress yourself in those filthy rags of your righteousness if you like.

Stranger