The Love of God - John MacArthur

[Nancy]

You seem to think I do not believe in Free Will. Surely, coming from two calvinistic churches, you would know I DO believe in free will.

Then you are the very first Calvinist I have met who believes in free will : Pretty much the belief of Calvinism is that the "elect" are already chosen before the foundations of the earth.
The "U" of T.U.L.I.P. "Unconditional Election...
Maybe you are not a total 5 pointer?

 

[reformed1689]

Pretty much the belief of Calvinism is that the "elect" are already chosen before the foundations of the earth.

Yes that is true. But that does not negate Free Will. Clearly you do not know what Calvinism actually teaches. It is not a question of will, it is a question of ability.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Then you are the very first Calvinist I have met who believes in free will : Pretty much the belief of Calvinism is that the "elect" are already chosen before the foundations of the earth.
The "U" of T.U.L.I.P. "Unconditional Election...
Maybe you are not a total 5 pointer?

Scripture reveals the elect are chosen before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1 reveals this truth. That is why we believe it.

 

[Nancy]

No, it's pretty much a regurgitation of Romans 9.
Romans 9

Then do tell what is it talking about? How will you spin this?

I do not believe God wills for all to be saved. There is not a verse that, in context, actually says that.

What do you think of the following verses?

2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

1 Timothy 2:4 - "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

Revelation 2:21 - "And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not."

1 Timothy 1:16 - "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all long suffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."

2 Peter 3:15 - "And account that the long suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you"

 

[Nancy]

Yes that is true. But that does not negate Free Will. Clearly you do not know what Calvinism actually teaches. It is not a question of will, it is a question of ability.

I know exactly what Calvinism teaches. What exactly do you mean by ability??

 

[Nancy]

Scripture reveals the elect are chosen before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1 reveals this truth. That is why we believe it.

Maybe you should teach @David Taylor what that means to be a Calvinist? He seems to think he actually has free will!

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Maybe you should teach @David Taylor what that means to be a Calvinist? He seems to think he actually has free will!

I was only teaching you that what we believe about election is biblical, I'll leave you two to hash out your discussion on free will and what he means.

 

[reformed1689]

Maybe you should teach @David Taylor what that means to be a Calvinist? He seems to think he actually has free will!

I got news for you, he believes the same thing.

 

[reformed1689]

I know exactly what Calvinism teaches. What exactly do you mean by ability??

If you know what Calvinism teaches you already know that answer.

 

[reformed1689]

2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

Context Nancy. God is patient that none of the elect shall perish. He is waiting on his elect. Never does it say that he is willing that not any man should perish. If that was truly the will of God that is what would be done.

1 Timothy 2:4 - "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

Just curious what translation are you using?

Revelation 2:21 - "And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not."

This actually doesn't boost your claim. God gives all room to repent. Again, that doesn't mean they have the ability or desire to.

1 Timothy 1:16 - "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all long suffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."

How is this relevant?

2 Peter 3:15 - "And account that the long suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you"

Again, how is this relevant?

 

[marks]

This actually doesn't boost your claim. God gives all room to repent. Again, that doesn't mean they have the ability or desire to.

So . . . it's something like me allowing you to fly to Jupiter by flapping your hands. There's an offer!

Isn't that disengenuous?

 

[marks]

God is patient that none of the elect shall perish. He is waiting on his elect. Never does it say that he is willing that not any man should perish. If that was truly the will of God that is what would be done.

"As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezekiel 33

What pleases God is not that the wicked die, but that they turn from their ways and live?

Why would you suppose that God doesn't just do what pleases Him?

I appreciate that you do not shy away from the difficult questions. How do you see this?

Much love!

 

[reformed1689]

"As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezekiel 33

What pleases God is not that the wicked die, but that they turn from their ways and live?

Why would you suppose that God doesn't just do what pleases Him?

I appreciate that you do not shy away from the difficult questions. How do you see this?

Much love!

I'm not sure I understand your question.

 

[marks]

I'm not sure I understand your question.

My question is this.

Considering that God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked, and that He does take pleasure when the wicked turn from his way and live, this being true,

If God is choosing who will live eternally with Him, and who will die in their sins, then, since it does not please God that any die in their sins, and does please God that they repent, then why doesn't God do what pleases Him to do?

If God is only choosing some for redemption, yet for a sinner to die displeases Him, then God is not pleased with the outcome of anyone's life who dies unrepentant and lost.

So, why doesn't God select everyone for redemption?

Much love!

 

[farouk]

My question is this.

Considering that God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked, and that He does take pleasure when the wicked turn from his way and live, this being true,

If God is choosing who will live eternally with Him, and who will die in their sins, then, since it does not please God that any die in their sins, and does please God that they repent, then why doesn't God do what pleases Him to do?

If God is only choosing some for redemption, yet for a sinner to die displeases Him, then God is not pleased with the outcome of anyone's life who dies unrepentant and lost.

So, why doesn't God select everyone for redemption?

Much love!

"How long is a piece of string?"

I think we need to keep to the statements of Scripture. Sometimes if we pile one apparently logical extrapolation upon another, the result can become somewhat obscure...

 

[marks]

"How long is a piece of string?"

I think we need to keep to the statements of Scripture. Sometimes if we pile one apparently logical extrapolation upon another, the result can become somewhat obscure...

"As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezekiel 33

This is what God takes pleasure in.

:)

 

[Nancy]

If you know what Calvinism teaches you already know that answer.

Can't you people just answer a simple question?? What's with that?

 

[Nancy]

Context Nancy. God is patient that none of the elect shall perish. He is waiting on his elect. Never does it say that he is willing that not any man should perish. If that was truly the will of God that is what would be done.

Just curious what translation are you using?

This actually doesn't boost your claim. God gives all room to repent. Again, that doesn't mean they have the ability or desire to.

How is this relevant?

Again, how is this relevant?

It is relevant as it shows God's long suffering to give time for ALL to repent, and yes I know that NOT all WILL repent but, they have a choice to do so or not. You seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth when on one hand, God chooses only certain people for salvation and others for damnation...kind of takes "free will" right out of the picture. You cannot claim BOTH Irresistible Grace AND that "God gives all room to repent"! To a Calvinist, either you have already been chosen and there is nothing you can do TO become un-saved or you were NOT chosen of God and no matter how much you want to choose to follow Him, oh well, too bad - God did not choose YOU. I think we all know that there are more people who reject Him than not. So, if He gives room to repent, must mean that person has a "choice".

 

[Waiting on him]

The love of God?
Sorry guys hate to be the one to give the news, but the only thing God loves about you is Christ in you.

He hates the flesh and everything it demonstrates, this is why Jesus says follow me it’s to be crucified. When God said He hated Esau He was speaking of his flesh. Jacob on the other hand that which He loves is a reference of what He knew was going to be done in Him.

 

[reformed1689]

It is relevant as it shows God's long suffering to give time for ALL to repent, and yes I know that NOT all WILL repent but, they have a choice to do so or not.

Except that is not what it says in context as I already told you.

You seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth when on one hand, God chooses only certain people for salvation and others for damnation...kind of takes "free will" right out of the picture.

No, it actually does remove free will. Again, this is not a question of will, but of ability.

You cannot claim BOTH Irresistible Grace AND that "God gives all room to repent"!

He gives room for all to repent, knowing that nobody will because they are not able to without Him.

So, if He gives room to repent, must mean that person has a "choice".

And here is your major problem. You assume, wrongly I might add, that Calvinists do not affirm free will. Every Calvinist I know, including myself, affirms free will. The problem is not will, but ability. Our will is in bondage to sin. There is none righteous, not one, there are none that seek after God. If it was solely up to our own free will, and not God's choice, nobody would be saved because it is not the will of any man who lives in his sin.