ROMANS 3:28 JUSTIFIED BY FAITH

[Doug]

I agree. But the comment was made to ignore James letter because of who it is written to. My original point is that we would then have to ignore all of Scripture. I would not say God wrote it to us, but for us. There is a minor but distinct difference.

I see your point.
I did not mean to imply we should ignore James all scripture is given for learning.
I was saying that James was written to the twelve tribes, they are the audience. The audience would be the ones that would obey writings. This epistle is for us but not to us.

 

[reformed1689]

I see your point.
I did not mean to imply we should ignore James all scripture is given for learning.
I was saying that James was written to the twelve tribes, they are the audience. The audience would be the ones that would obey writings. This epistle is for us but not to us.

That would be all of the epistles.

 

[Doug]

That would be all of the epistles.

Right and we have to evaluate the books of the Bible and determine into which dispensation they apply, to whom they are speaking and determine how they apply to us.

 

[Doug]

You only get that if you do not look at the whole of Scripture and isolate passages to themselves.

All of scripture has to be given consideration but you can not apply the whole Bible at one time, passages have to evaluated individually.
Look at baptism. Nowhere does Paul instruct the church today to be baptized. Nowhere do we find in Paul where baptism is a testimony of our faith or is part of his gospel. Baptism however was in the gospels for the remission of sin (Acts 2:38).

 

[reformed1689]

All of scripture has to be given consideration but you can not apply the whole Bible at one time, passages have to evaluated individually.
Look at baptism. Nowhere does Paul instruct the church today to be baptized. Nowhere do we find in Paul where baptism is a testimony of our faith or is part of his gospel. Baptism however was in the gospels for the remission of sin (Acts 2:38).

You just contradicted yourself. Nowhere does Paul instruct to be baptized but he also does not instruct to not be baptized. So why do you only consider Paul. This whole idea of some books are more applicable than others in the New Testament is just absurd.

 

[Doug]

You just contradicted yourself. Nowhere does Paul instruct to be baptized but he also does not instruct to not be baptized. So why do you only consider Paul. This whole idea of some books are more applicable than others in the New Testament is just absurd.

I do not see a contradiction. You can not say we are instructed to do something by absence of being told not to do it.

 

[reformed1689]

I do not see a contradiction. You can not say we are instructed to do something by absence of being told not to do it.

Do you believe we are to be baptized today, yes or no?

 

[Doug]

Do you believe we are to be baptized today, yes or no?

Can't say yes or no.
Water baptism was commanded for Israel for remission of sins (Mark 1:4 Acts 2:38), to justify what God commanded (Luke 7:29), to be saved to be physically delivered to enter the earthly Davidic kingdom (Mark 16:16). No to water baptism.
Yes we are baptized by the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13).

 

[Doug]

Doug,

Well done! I am in agreement to what you have written up to this point. The one point I would discuss (not necessarily disagree with) is Romans 4. You spoke of him offering up Isaac, but that is not what Romans 4 is referring to. It's simply speaking of him (Abraham) having faith that he and Sarah were going to have Isaac when they were both too old (by human standards).

The interesting point is that they weren't really perfect in faith here... Sarah suggested Abraham sleep with the younger Hagar... That produced Ishmael. But that wasn't the promise. However, they still had faith to get the job done according to God's plan.

As for offering up Isaac... That wasn't considered a work according to Hebrews 12. If that account is accurate, Abraham offered him up -- willing to kill him -- but still believed the linage would continue through Isaac. According to Heb 12, Abraham expected God to raise Isaac from the dead.

So yes, it was obedience... But it was the faith that God was still going to deliver the promise even if Isaac died. Abraham simply believed he (Isaac) would be resurrected.

This may be works as evidence...but only with men... Not God! God didn't need Abraham's works; he needed his faith.

So when you look at what James said:

James 2:18 KJV
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James is talking about people seeing faith by works. It's sad, but man needs the physical evidence! They need to see works to see faith. Now look at Paul:

Romans 4:2 KJV
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

These two verses oddly agree. You got works, you can glory before men. But not God! James was looking to prove to men he had faith by his works, but Paul said it is glory, but not before God.

I can throw in Matthew 6, here... The opening 10 or so verses say don't give, pray or fast to be seen of men. Do it in secret before God.

Again Doug, well done! I bring this up not to question your excellent postings, but to further the discussion.

I came to understand more what you are saying about Romans 4.
Romans 4:2 is speaking of Abraham's works which are offering Isaac and maybe being circumcised.
Romans 4:3 Is speaking of believing God when he was told he would be father of many nations in Genesis 15:6 and this is where Sarah and the deadness of the womb comes in (Romans 4:19) that you refer to.

Thanks again, I appreciate your post.

 

[reformed1689]

Can't say yes or no.
Water baptism was commanded for Israel for remission of sins (Mark 1:4 Acts 2:38), to justify what God commanded (Luke 7:29), to be saved to be physically delivered to enter the earthly Davidic kingdom (Mark 16:16). No to water baptism.
Yes we are baptized by the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Ever heard of the great commission?

 

[Doug]

Ever heard of the great commission?

The "great commission" was given to the twelve. They were to teach the nations, all creatures, all that Jesus taught them and baptize them (Matthew 28:19). They were to preach the gospel of the kingdom on earth (Mark 16:15)

We have a better "commission" in 2 Corinthians 5:20

 

[justbyfaith]

May I respectfully say then you would have to keep the law.
Jesus taught to keep the law in Matthew 19:17 and Matthew 5:18 as examples.
Paul says we are not under the law (Romans 6:14)

There is no law against abiding in Christ so that you bear the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).

So it is not that I am required to look to a set of do's and don'ts in an attempt to obey them perfectly; but it is that I am required to walk according to the Spirit rather than the flesh (Romans 8:12-13) and in so doing, the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in me (Romans 8:4).

As a believer under the new covenant, the law is written on my heart and in my mind (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16).

It is a righteousness apart from the law; and yet the law and the prophets testify that it is righteousness indeed (Romans 3:21).

Because the love of God is shed abroad in my heart (Romans 5:5) through faith (Galatians 3:14); and this love is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within me (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4) and is the bond of perfectness (Colossians 3:14). It is also not in word or in tongue only; but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18). Therefore faith obtains love; and love results in works.

It is not that we are redeemed by the works of the law. We are regenerated "not by works of righteousness which we have done" (Titus 3:5). But regeneration means a change in character (2 Corinthians 5:17) and a change in character means a change in behaviour.

So then, we will bear thr fruit of the Spirit as regenerated people; and there is no law against the fruit of the Spirit (again, Galatians 5:22-23).

So then, when we begin to bear the fruit of the Spirit, our behaviour will not be in violation of any faithful law (because Psalms 94:20 is also a factor).

 

[reformed1689]

The "great commission" was given to the twelve. They were to teach the nations, all creatures, all that Jesus taught them and baptize them (Matthew 28:19). They were to preach the gospel of the kingdom on earth (Mark 16:15)

We have a better "commission" in 2 Corinthians 5:20

You might want to read the Great Commission again.

 

[justbyfaith]

Water baptism does something in the soul so that a man is enabled to walk in newness of life (Romans 6:1-6).

 

[marks]

Doug,

Well done! I am in agreement to what you have written up to this point. The one point I would discuss (not necessarily disagree with) is Romans 4. You spoke of him offering up Isaac, but that is not what Romans 4 is referring to. It's simply speaking of him (Abraham) having faith that he and Sarah were going to have Isaac when they were both too old (by human standards).

The interesting point is that they weren't really perfect in faith here... Sarah suggested Abraham sleep with the younger Hagar... That produced Ishmael. But that wasn't the promise. However, they still had faith to get the job done according to God's plan.

As for offering up Isaac... That wasn't considered a work according to Hebrews 12. If that account is accurate, Abraham offered him up -- willing to kill him -- but still believed the linage would continue through Isaac. According to Heb 12, Abraham expected God to raise Isaac from the dead.

So yes, it was obedience... But it was the faith that God was still going to deliver the promise even if Isaac died. Abraham simply believed he (Isaac) would be resurrected.

This may be works as evidence...but only with men... Not God! God didn't need Abraham's works; he needed his faith.

So when you look at what James said:

James 2:18 KJV
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James is talking about people seeing faith by works. It's sad, but man needs the physical evidence! They need to see works to see faith. Now look at Paul:

Romans 4:2 KJV
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

These two verses oddly agree. You got works, you can glory before men. But not God! James was looking to prove to men he had faith by his works, but Paul said it is glory, but not before God.

I can throw in Matthew 6, here... The opening 10 or so verses say don't give, pray or fast to be seen of men. Do it in secret before God.

Again Doug, well done! I bring this up not to question your excellent postings, but to further the discussion.

Good post yourself!

 

[marks]

I agree. But the comment was made to ignore James letter because of who it is written to. My original point is that we would then have to ignore all of Scripture. I would not say God wrote it to us, but for us. There is a minor but distinct difference.

Have you ever thought, while God was giving us the Bible, He knew you? He knew you would read it, what you would think, how you would understand what He said.

It's a very supernatural book!

 

[reformed1689]

Have you ever thought, while God was giving us the Bible, He knew you? He knew you would read it, what you would think, how you would understand what He said.

It's a very supernatural book!

Did you actually read what I wrote?

 

[Doug]

Water baptism does something in the soul so that a man is enabled to walk in newness of life (Romans 6:1-6).

Romans 6:3 we are to reckon that we are baptized by the Spirit into Christ's death and freed from sin (Romans 6:7)
Romans 6:4 Romans 6:5 we are to reckon that we are raised with Christ to walk in newness of life

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Have you ever thought, while God was giving us the Bible, He knew you? He knew you would read it, what you would think, how you would understand what He said.

It's a very supernatural book!

Not quite. The only way a person would understand it is by God's grace, 1 Corinthians 2:14. It is all by God's grace, not because man could read it and understand it out of some inherent ability.

 

[justbyfaith]

Romans 6:3 we are to reckon that we are baptized by the Spirit into Christ's death and freed from sin (Romans 6:7)
Romans 6:4 Romans 6:5 we are to reckon that we are raised with Christ to walk in newness of life

Water is an important element in the equation, 1 Peter 3:20-21.