Calvinism

[Willie T]

I agree.

James White (a Calvinist) once denounced what he referred to as "cage stage" Calvinists by asking if their theology made them more gracious.

What we see on this forum is the result of Calvinism (or at least the result of a type of Calvinism) in the heart of some who hold it. Are they better for it? Does their belief make them Christ-like? The answer of course is no. The fruit bears out the nature of the plant.

That is interesting. Because the first thing I saw when I first began reading John Calvin — fairly leaping off the page — was his utter disdain for anyone else. I think I mentioned how he used the word "absurd" some 286 times in The Institutes, alone, when he described others and any theories they espoused.

 

[Steve Owen]

You have provided Scripture and you have privided commentary. The two are, unfortunately, unrelated.

That is the problem with your method of "debate" Steve. When pressed to prove your point or when someone disagrees you becone snude and condescending.

I believe this is because you do not understand the tradition that shapes your philosophy. You rely on Reformed tradition and the teachings and writings of men you believe God appointed over you as His representatives to explain what God meant but did not actually breathe into Scripture.

You reject what is written in favor of what you believe is implied because that is what your tradition teaches you to do.

Steve, for once lay down your commentaries and those "watch tower-ish" lessons and just read the Bible. Set aside your tradition and writings of those you see as modern day apostles and just take obe week to study Scripture apart from your tradition and philosophy.

I think, if you are able to do so, you will walk away not only from a cult-link mindset but with an understanding of the gospel. You may remain a Calvinist but you will understand that philosophy rather than just holding it out of tradition.

Well John, I will say one thing for you: you don't disappoint.
I expected you not to be able to deal with the Scripture and to resort to cheap shots, et voila!

My posts are still up there for serious Bible students to comment on.

 

[Willie T]

THIS was written by a Calvinist:
7 Signs That You're a Cage-Stage Calvinist - Tim Challies

7 Signs That You’re a Cage-Stage Calvinist
March 25, 2019

Calvinism is a beautiful thing—when we Calvinists don’t ruin it.

For too long Calvinism has been linked to arrogant, fiery, and argumentative Calvinists who seem like the only cure for their cruelty is time in a steel cage. Diagnosis? A Cage-Stage Calvinist.

A Cage-Stage Calvinist is someone who has learned TULIP—the five points of Calvinism—and goes on a relational rampage. They attack, bludgeon, and judge their brothers and sisters in Christ who don’t line up with TULIP as they do.

And, of course, a Cage Stage Calvinist doesn’t think they are one. I know, because I was one. Still am, sometimes. Don’t assume this post addresses other Calvinists—it might be for you.

Real Calvinism doesn’t need a cage. Real Calvinism is a Humble Calvinism. A heart-grasp of the doctrines of grace will humble us before the Lord and before one another. When the doctrines of grace hit our hearts, we will bear fruit that smells like our Savior who is gentle and humble in heart.

Cage-Stage Calvinism happens when the doctrines of grace have clogged up our minds but have never made it to our hearts. It displays itself in a variety of symptoms. If you have any of these seven symptoms, call on your Great Physician right away.

1. Obsessive Calvinism Disorder
The first sign of a Cage-Stage Calvinist is an Obsessive Calvinism Disorder—when Calvinism is all you think about; all you read about; all you want to talk about. This version of OCD can be detected by these diagnostic questions:

• Do you mainly read the Bible looking for verses that smell like TULIP, or, do you read to enjoy God himself?
• Do you know more verses for TULIP than you know about prayer, fasting, and good works?
• Are you chronically listening for Calvinism when you hear the proclamation of God’s word?
• Do conversations with friends tend to boomerang back to Calvinism?

If you suffer from Obsessive Calvinist Disorder, remember, “As a deer longs for flowing streams, so I long for you, God” (Psalm 42:1).

2. Kindness Isn’t a Concern
The most common symptom of a cage-stager is the complete disregard for kindness—as though it were not a fruit of the Spirit. Humility, gentleness, love, and patience are not luxuries. They aren’t something we pursue if we have time—they are marks of discipleship with the risen Lord. Jesus commands us to love our neighbors—Calvinist, Arminian, or atheist—as ourselves. Always.

If kindness gets cut off when you talk about Calvinism, remember, “Now the goal of our instruction is love that comes from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith” (1 Timothy 1:5).

3. Vigilante Theologians
Cage Stagers are the self-appointed theology police. If you feel the need to correct every post on social media, critique every worship song that isn’t “deep enough,” or if you feel like you need to talk to your pastor about his lack of Calvin quotes—head to the cage.

If you tend towards a hyper-critical spirit, remember, “For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, as I am fully known. Now these three remain: faith, hope, and love—but the greatest of these is love” (1 Corinthians 13:12–13).

4. Burning Bridges and Building Walls
A rubble of relationships because of how we handle Reformed theology is a dead giveaway of cage-stage tendencies.

Christians don’t burn bridges with one another. We don’t build walls of hostility and division with one another, because Jesus tore them all down. It’s okay to have theological tribes and camps—but we don’t bite and devour one another. Remember that the Lord wants us to live “with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, making every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace” (Ephesians 4:2–3).

5. Mismanaged Identity
If you get more joy in being a Calvinist than you do a Christian, you have misunderstood Calvinism. One of the reasons why Cage Stagers show their teeth in a theological argument is because they feel like their core is being attacked. It’s as though what makes them tick is being trampled. It’s a case of misplaced identity.

We are Calvinists best when we aren’t Calvinists first. We belong to Jesus. Find your identity by remembering: “For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory” (Colossians 3:3–4).

6. Winning is More Important Than Loving
Cage Stagers take their cues from the cage of mixed martial arts. Finish the fight. Win. Get the knockout or the submission. Brothers and sisters, we don’t have to win every argument. We don’t have to enter every argument.

How many people do you think have been convinced of Calvinism by confrontation? I’m going to guess it’s as many carrots as I ate last month. Zero. But how many frayed friendships and frustrated family meals have been caused by the need to win the debate over predestination? It’s probably the same number of tortilla chips I ate last year. A lot.

I’m all for talking theology, but it must be done in the fruit of the Spirit. If winning at all costs is more important to than loving, remember, “If possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone” (Romans 12:18).

7. Jesus Gets Lost In Your TULIP
The root cause of all Cage Staginess can be found here: We’ve lost sight of Christ. In the Cage Stage, Jesus gets pushed to the margins, forgotten, and passed over for the mud pies in the slums of theological street fighting. We forget whose image we are being transformed into, whose mission we are on, whose disciples we are, who we belong to.

If Jesus isn’t of first importance to us, our theological solar system gets off kilter and causes all kinds of catastrophes. Friends, TULIP doesn’t terminate on itself. The points point somewhere—to someone, Jesus Christ. He is the only one who wasn’t born totally depraved, but he took our sin, died on the cross for his people, drew us to himself, and holds us till the end. Calvinism is meant to be Christ-centered, Christ-enjoying, Christ-like. Remember that the crucified and risen Christ has “first place in everything” (Colossians 1:18).

In Humble Calvinism, self-confessed recovering, cranky Calvinist Jeff Medders considers how and why the love of God gets replaced with a love of Calvinism. It’s one thing having the five points all worked out in your head, but have they really penetrated your heart? Pick up a copy of Humble Calvinism today.

 

[Grailhunter]

Sorry but you are the one that sounds like a robot seeing as how you just spit out the same junk over and over and never actually engage an argument.

Argue with me about this? You say you are not a robot? Then you have free-will. You say that you are not mind-controlled? Then you have Free-will. You say you like being a robot. Then you are mind-controlled. There is no way for you to logically win this argument. You have to go into the fantasy world of a mind-control mind not to see it. Call these anti-cult professionals up. Need a number?

 

[John Caldwell]

That is interesting. Because the first thing I saw when I first began reading John Calvin — fairly leaping off the page — was his utter disdain for anyone else. I think I mentioned how he used the word "absurd" some 286 times in The Institutes, alone, when he described others and any theories they espoused.

Historically Calvinists are among Christians who have been very active in evangelism and outspoken with their love for other people (George Muller comes to mind). BUT Calvinism was how they understood God's work of predestination. It was their understanding and they knew it was philosophical (it did not change how they behaved or acted to other people). This is not true of the Calvinists we're dealing with on this forum. Like Calvin, their hatred for other Christians (and by virtue, for Christ), is tangible.

 

[Steve Owen]

James White (a Calvinist) once denounced what he referred to as "cage stage" Calvinists by asking if their theology made them more gracious.

Well your departing from the truths of Calvinism has not made you any more gracious, only more snide.

 

[reformed1689]

Argue with me about this? You say you are not a robot? Then you have free-will. You say that you are not mind-controlled? Then you have Free-will. You say you like being a robot. Then you are mind-controlled. There is no way for you to logically win this argument. You have to go into the fantasy world of a mind-control mind not to see it. Call these anti-cult professionals up. Need a number?

Calvinists affirm free will. Shows what you know.

 

[reformed1689]

That is interesting. Because the first thing I saw when I first began reading John Calvin — fairly leaping off the page — was his utter disdain for anyone else. I think I mentioned how he used the word "absurd" some 286 times in The Institutes, alone, when he described others and any theories they espoused.

Not sure what books you are reading....

 

[John Caldwell]

These are just a couple of ideas our little Calvinist group - our puppy squad, so to speak (Doctrines of Grace...DoGs, but lacking Christian maturity ) would have us believe (just to keep things in perspective):

1. Scripture is subjective:

In Biblical Foreknowledge @Anthony D'Arienzo rejected the “literal” hermeneutical method in favor of liberal hermeneutics. He determined that the "literal" method of interpretation which asserts that the biblical text is to be interpreted according to the plain meaning conveyed by its grammatical construction and historical context holds God dependent on dictionaries and prefers assigning “biblical meanings” to words that tell us what God really means.

2. Good theology is not Biblical theology:

In this thread (Calvinism post # 479) @David Taylor has explained that Calvinism is not what is written in Scripture but what he sees as implied or contained between the lines. He expressed the belief that “good theology” cannot be shown in the biblical text itself but must be explained.

That's not how good theology works. With that mindset you shouldn't believe in the Trinity either.

This is eisegesis by definition.

3. Good pups stay in the litter:

Recently @Steve Owen and @David Taylor joined this forum and took their place in the puppy squad. IMHO this is not by coincidence. @Preacher4Truth , @SovereignGrace , @Anthony D'Arienzo , @Steve Owen and @David Taylor are a group known to travel as a litter. They will gang up on non-Calvinists and encourage one another to slander anyone who disagrees with them. I believe they hold that non-Calvinistic Chrisitans can exist but only as Christians blinded to the truth of Calvinism and God's commands are not binding when it comes to slandering them because the squad sees them as less than Christian.

 

[John Caldwell]

Well your departing from the truths of Calvinism has not made you any more gracious, only more snide.

This is a false accusation. I was at least as snide, probably more so, when I was a Calvinist.

 

[John Caldwell]

Well John, I will say one thing for you: you don't disappoint.
I expected you not to be able to deal with the Scripture and to resort to cheap shots, et voila!

My posts are still up there for serious Bible students to comment on.

Any student of the Bible will agree on your verses. I, in fact, did deal with them.

What I did not entertain was your additions to those verses. You see, Steve, I believe that Scripture is sufficient. What is written IS ENOUGH. I do not need your additions or your tradition. That is what I discovered when I endeavored to read Scripture without them. It makes sense without the additions.

 

[reformed1689]

2. Good theology is not Biblical theology:

In this thread @David Taylor has explained that Calvinism is not what is written in Scripture but what he sees as implied or contained between the lines. He expressed the belief that “good theology” cannot be shown in the biblical text itself but must be explained. This is eisegesis by definition.

Flat out lie. I have never said that.

 

[Grailhunter]

Calvinists affirm free will. Shows what you know.

I have been showing in words and pictures all along this discussion.
So you say Calvinists have free-will
Are you going say that your god does not predestine people to hell before they are born?
That he does not predestine people to be the elect before they are born?

 

[reformed1689]

3. Good pups stay in the litter:

Recently @Steve Owen and @David Taylor joined this forum and took their place in the puppy squad. IMHO this is not by coincidence. @Preacher4Truth , @SovereignGrace , @Anthony D'Arienzo , @Steve Owen and @David Taylor are a group known to travel as a litter. They will gang up on non-Calvinists and encourage one another to slander anyone who disagrees with them. I believe they hold that non-Calvinistic Chrisitans can exist but only as Christians blinded to the truth of Calvinism and God's commands are not binding when it comes to slandering them because the squad sees them as less than Christian.

More lies and slander.

 

[reformed1689]

I have been showing in words and pictures all along this discussion.
So you say Calvinists have free-will
Are you going say that your god does not predestine people to hell before they are born?
That he does not predestine people to be the elect before they are born?

Yes, there is free will. Yes God predestines the elect. He does predestine before they are born. However, none of these statements are in conflict with each other.

 

[Grailhunter]

Yes, there is free will. Yes God predestines the elect. He does predestine before they are born. However, none of these statements are in conflict with each other.

Of course, not in the mind controlled head of yours. So when does your god predestine people to Hell?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Who started the term OSAS, do you know?

It was Arminians who rejected the first 4 points of the tulip acronym but wanted to hold onto the idea of what they called eternal security.People like R.B.Theime

Perseverance of the saints tea

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Of course I do. (and it is not Biblical)

What do you think is biblical?

 

[Grailhunter]

Any student of the Bible will agree on your verses. I, in fact, did deal with them.

What I did not entertain was your additions to those verses. You see, Steve, I believe that Scripture is sufficient. What is written IS ENOUGH. I do not need your additions or your tradition. That is what I discovered when I endeavored to read Scripture without them. It makes sense without the additions.

John,
David Taylor says he has free-will....explain to me what twisted truth allows him to say that?

 

[CharismaticLady]

It was Arminians who rejected the first 4 points of the tulip acronym but wanted to hold onto the idea of what they called eternal security.People like R.B.Theime

Perseverance of the saints tea

The Bible does show assurance, but only as long as the conditions are met. Jesus said we must endure to the end - that is the condition. The false doctrine of once saved, always saved, even if you sin willfully later and do not bear any fruit of the Spirit is deceptive and man made. But there is a version of assurance for those who have truly repented and received the life changing and empowering baptism of the Holy Spirit. When you continually walk in the Spirit your born again nature which is you partaking in the divine nature of Christ, you will not willfully commit sins of lawlessness. Paul gives warnings to continue walking in the Spirit and not quench the Spirit. So even if you have the Spirit and were sanctified, if you walk away and start walking in the flesh as in Galatians 5:19-21 you will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. You will be lost. It is not just a mere lack of rewards while on earth in the Church as is explained away by Calvinism.

1 John 3:18-19, 21-24

18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

How many in OSAS have all their prayers answered and receive what they ask for? If not, then OSAS is obviously a false assurance.

I base my assurance on these words of Jesus and John. And 100% of my prayers are answered. Those whose prayers are not answered, will go by their experience and subjectively believe it is impossible and call me a liar like @David Taylor does continually. But I assure you if you abide in Jesus, He provides the way to receive 100% of your prayers. It doesn't say that God might, or that He will say no as is preached in today's lukewarm Church. This assurance and sign of answered prayer is also in John 15:7 and 1 John 5:14-15.