Why do so many oppose imputed righteousness?

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Giuliano

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Tread cautiously, folks.

2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
 

justbyfaith

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Those Jews were lost for they did not obey, submit to God's righteous commands. Therefore obedience is necessary to being saved and not works of the OT law or works of merit.

Only faith in Jesus Christ is necessary; and a living faith will produce a practical righteousness every time if given the opportunity.

Again, how could Abraham be one who "worketh not" (Rom 4) when in fact he did do works (Hebrews 11:8,17)?

Romans 4:5 is speaking of a generic reality that does not have to refer to Abraham. To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted to him for righteousness.

Idolatry is unrighteousness

Then why did God call Aaron "the saint of the LORD" (Psalms 106:16)?

One is not first righteous then goes about doing righteousness.

A person is made righteous by faith; and then, yes, he becomes a doer of the word.

There is not example of a person who was seen as righteous BEFORE they ever did any righteousness.

That may or may not be. However, Abraham was declared righteous by the LORD in Genesis 15:6, and then proceeded to pimp his wife to the Egyptian Pharaoh.

To call them unrighteous BEFORE they had done any evil is like calling a wall painted BEFORE any paint has been put on it.

It is more like calling the wall unpainted before any paint is applied. For righteousness is a covering among other things.

God has never declared any person as righteous BEFORE that person had ever done any righteousness.

In Romans 4:5, it is a general rule that the Lord justifies the ungodly. Thus your position is refuted by the verse.

There is no verse at all that says righteousness or unrighteousness is transferred from one person to another.

It is a basic Bible truth that the Lord gives us His righteousness when we believe on Him. And unrighteousness is indeed transferred to the animal in the OT as a type of what would happen later when Jesus died on the Cross for us.

There is no such thing as a righteous or unrighteous gene that is passed from one to another.

You are in denial of basic scriptural truth. Keep studying.

The only way a person can be righteous is by doing righteousness.

The only way a person can do righteousness is if he is first righteous.

If we can transfer our sins into an animal then there was no reason for Christ to died and shed His blood to wash away our sins.

There is. For it was impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. However, the picture of transferring sin to the animal as a type of what would happen with the crucifixion is very clear in scripture.

My position, as found in the Bible that salvation is by obedience to God's will, nothing has changed.

Again, my position is that we are saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of the Lord: not of works, lest any man should boast. Since obedience translates into works, the verse that I just quoted refutes your position. We are saved by grace; and obedience is the sure result. But the obedience doesn't save; for we are saved by grace through faith and not of works.

God saves, but who does He save and why? The obedient (Hebrews 5:9).

Again, Hebrews 5:9 does not deny the concept that faith comes first and that the obedience is a sign of the righteousness of faith.

Therefore a faith that justifies (Romans 5:1) is a faith that obeys.

No doubt. However, we are not saved by the obedience itself. But I will agree that we are saved through an obedient faith.

Faith only is void of obedience for is is just a mental assent of the mind, just simple acknowledge of some Biblical information and nothing more.

My position is that we are saved by a "living faith alone". What this means is that if someone places a living faith in Christ and never has an opportunity do any good works, they will still go to heaven.

The faith that God requires is spoken of in Romans 10:10...

Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I do believe that the Lord is speaking of a practical righteousness here.

You post "I agree that mental assent will never cut it." But that all faith only is, a mental assent of the mind and that is why James says faith only is dead. Just having a mental assent that a hungry person will be fed without <fify> DOING anything is dead faith.

I'm in agreement.

1 John 1:8 agreed...yes we sin and yet we are saved.

We have sin and yet we are saved. But if we commit sin, we are children of the devil (1 John 3:8). Are we then going to heaven?

You say you are not against the doctrine of imputation, but you are.

I am not. For I have even taught the doctrine in other places in these boards.

You are against it <fify> as long as you add your 'impartation' to it.

I do believe that the two doctrines are compatible. You should ask the Lord to give you understanding on these issues.

The doctrine of imputation is very practical because it works.

It works? Does it work so powerfully that it puts unrighteous people in heaven?

A heaven with unrighteous people in it will be no heaven at all. Sin causes all kinds of suffering. A heaven that has sin in it will be a heaven that contains suffering; thus the promises of Revelation 21:4 and Psalms 16:11 would be null and void.

Whose obedience is required to make one righteous? (Rom. 5:19), one of your favorite verses. "by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." Imputation

When Jesus died on the Cross, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my Spirit. The same Holy Spirit was later poured out on the church (on the day of Pentecost and has been in believers ever since). It is this Spirit who dwells within us and enables us to walk in freedom from and victory over sin. Therefore, Jesus' one righteous act resulted in us being made righteous in a very practical sense.

(Rom. 4:8) "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." Doesn't mean you are not a sinner. Means the Lord does not impute it to you.

I agree. However, it doesn't mean that you are a sinner, either. Definitions. If a sinner is someone who commits sin, then every sinner is a child of the devil (1 John 3:8). If a sinner is someone who has sin dwelling within him, then the term applies to every last one of us.

Again I ask, will the imputation of Christ's righteousness still be necessary for you in Heaven? You will be sinless there. No danger of sinning there. My how your righteousness will glow. Will Christ's imputed righteousness still be necessary for you? Why?

What do you think? If we are without sin in heaven, why is imputation necessary, there?

Personally, I believe that it is the imputation that will keep us walking in righteousness once we get there.

So? We are talking about the doctrine of imputation. This verse speaks to Gentiles as opposed to Israel. The door being opened to the Gentiles at this time but will one day close and be opened to Israel. It has nothing to do with imputation.

A slightly different subject has also been brought up; and I was addressing that.

God imputed Adam's sin to the human race. God imputed the sin of the human race to Christ. God imputed the righteousness of Christ to those who believe.

I agree.
 
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Stranger

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I am not. For I have even taught the doctrine in other places in these boards.



I do believe that the two doctrines are compatible. You should ask the Lord to give you understanding on these issues.



It works? Does it work so powerfully that it puts unrighteous people in heaven?

A heaven with unrighteous people in it will be no heaven at all. Sin causes all kinds of suffering. A heaven that has sin in it will be a heaven that contains suffering; thus the promises of Revelation 21:4 and Psalms 16:11 would be null and void.



When Jesus died on the Cross, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my Spirit. The same Holy Spirit was later poured out on the church (on the day of Pentecost and has been in believers ever since). It is this Spirit who dwells within us and enables us to walk in freedom from and victory over sin. Therefore, Jesus' one righteous act resulted in us being made righteous in a very practical sense.



I agree. However, it doesn't mean that you are a sinner, either. Definitions. If a sinner is someone who commits sin, then every sinner is a child of the devil (1 John 3:8). If a sinner is someone who has sin dwelling within him, then the term applies to every last one of us.



What do you think? If we are without sin in heaven, why is imputation necessary, there?

Personally, I believe that it is the imputation that will keep us walking in righteousness once we get there.



A slightly different subject has also been brought up; and I was addressing that.



I agree.

No, your doctrine of imputation involves your false doctrine of impartation. You poisoned the well.

I did ask. He says you are wrong. What now?

What God calls clean, you should not call unclean. When God declares one righteous, he is righteous, by imputation. Just like you. You are unrighteous in yourself, but God declares you righteous.

You avoided the point. (Rom. 5:19) "by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous". How many? Answer: One. Who is that? Jesus Christ.

Wrong. It does mean you're a sinner. Note the context of (Rom. 4:8). See (4:7) "Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered."

Again, will Christ's imputed righteousness be necessary for you to remain in Heaven?

I had no change of subject. You addressed your comment to me. Try and stay focused.

So you say. But not really.

Stranger
 

justbyfaith

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No, your doctrine of imputation involves your false doctrine of impartation. You poisoned the well.

If that is the case, then you are saying that the word of the Lord is a poisoned well; for I got my doctrine from the Bible.

I did ask. He says you are wrong. What now?

You are not hearing from the Lord.

What God calls clean, you should not call unclean. When God declares one righteous, he is righteous, by imputation. Just like you. You are unrighteous in yourself, but God declares you righteous.

It is impossible for God to lie (Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18); and He calls those things which be not as though they are (Romans 4:17); thus creating a new reality; that the person becomes actually righteous. In Romans 5:19, He does not only count people righteous; He makes them so.

You avoided the point. (Rom. 5:19) "by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous". How many? Answer: One. Who is that? Jesus Christ.

Indeed; through the righteousness of One the many are made righteous. You can discount what the word made means in the English language if you like; but I will take it at face value.

Wrong. It does mean you're a sinner.

If you mean that in the sense that the element of sin indwells me, then I agree. But if you mean it in the sense that it is inevitable but that I will sin in the future, than I do not call myself a sinner by that definition. To repent means to turn away from sin; and you make such a thing meaningless; because if I repent of something but will commit the same sin again, it is mere lip service and doesn't mean a thing. Also, if being a sinner means one who commits sin, then if I am a sinner I am also a child of the devil (1 John 3:8). So then, you have insulted me by calling me a child of the devil, in calling me a sinner in that sense. I do believe that this is because there is some sin in your own life that you do not want to give up to the Lord; thus you feel that you will have ground to stand on on your day of judgment since your doctrine told you that everyone is a sinner in the sense that everyone commits sin. This is not the case. There are those who are not children of the devil (see Psalms 119:3); and this means that they do not commit sin (1 John 3:8). People of such value do not proclaim to others that they are sanctified wholly; while they may proclaim that the benefit is possible. Being perfect, they consider themselves not to have apprehended (Philippians 3:12-16 (kjv), esp. v. 15).

I had no change of subject. You addressed your comment to me. Try and stay focused.

Now you're attempting to get a sinful reaction out of me by insulting me. There was indeed a change of subject; but I am not going to argue with you over the fact; except to say that my comment was in response to what was before it.

Again, will Christ's imputed righteousness be necessary for you to remain in Heaven?

I believe that Christ's imputed righteousness is what enables our practical righteousness; so the answer is yes.

So you say. But not really.

Yes really. The problem is you don't understand the compatibility of these two doctrines; and also didn't really ask the Lord for understanding but listened to a voice that told you a whopper of a lie (that you wanted to hear) instead of searching the scriptures for the answer.
 
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Stranger

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I believe that Christ's imputed righteousness is what enables our practical righteousness; so the answer is yes.

You believe wrong. And your answer is 'no' as you have to add your false doctrine to my question to make it yes. There are many ways to lie.

In Heaven, why does your so called practical righteousness need enabling? There will be no sin there. Or do you believe God didn't do a good enough work so that you must be enabled? Are you saying your practical righteousness is not good enough? If your practical righteousness is not good enough, then you don't measure up. In other words, your righteousness is as filthy rags...just like the Bible says.

Even in Heaven you want to have a righteousness that is deserved. That is of you. Oh, you give God a little credit. He can enable me, but it is still me doing my righteous good things. Me getting what I deserve.

You know nothing of God's grace. You move under the banner of grace but are nothing but a legalistic law keeper. You come under the title 'justbyfaith' yet that is a lie. You are 'justbylaw' or 'justbyworks' or 'justbymyrighteousness'.

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justbyfaith

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In Heaven, why does your so called practical righteousness need enabling? There will be no sin there. Or do you believe God didn't do a good enough work so that you must be enabled? Are you saying your practical righteousness is not good enough? If your practical righteousness is not good enough, then you don't measure up.

We are practically righteous even in this life because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. It would take an entire message to be able to explain it to you, however. But it has to do with the wet paint principle found in Romans 7:7-13. Perhaps I will come back and give a link to a document that might tell you the reality if you study it long enough. I doubt that you will read it; but I will do it for the sake of others here.

Wet Paint Principle (Freedom)

In other words, your righteousness is as filthy rags...just like the Bible says.

Indeed. My righteousness apart from Christ is indeed as filthy rags.

However, in Christ, the righteousness of saints is fine linen, clean and white (Revelation 19:8).

It is His righteousness imputed and imparted to me (Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6, 1 John 3:7).

It is given to me and thus I own it; it is mine: and it is also fine linen, clean and white. I have taken off the old man and put on the new.

Even in Heaven you want to have a righteousness that is deserved. That is of you. Oh, you give God a little credit. He can enable me, but it is still me doing my righteous good things. Me getting what I deserve.

If we do not have a practical righteousness in heaven, then heaven, truly, will not be heavenly. If practical sin is in heaven, then there is also suffering in heaven. I don't believe that: I believe that the righteousness given is not only imputed and positional; but imparted and practical: in order that heaven might truly be heavenly.

You know nothing of God's grace. You move under the banner of grace but are nothing but a legalistic law keeper. You come under the title 'justbyfaith' yet that is a lie. You are 'justbylaw' or 'justbyworks' or 'justbymyrighteousness'.

I know of God's grace in deeper ways than you can even imagine. There are five definitions of it:

1) simple favour

2) Getting what we don't deserve (heaven) as opposed to Mercy: Not getting what we do deserve (hell).

3) God's Riches At Christ's Expense

4) Goodness Rendered As Christ Empowers

5) the enabling power of the Lord.

I know that I am indeed "just by faith"

Not only does my doctrine teach that we are made just by faith alone (just by faith); but it teaches that we are made righteous/just by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Keep studying. You do not have the understanding that you think you do.

I sense also that there is a little bit of "grace as a license for sin" in what you believe (see the NIV's rendering of Jude 1:3-4).
 
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Stranger

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We are practically righteous even in this life because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. It would take an entire message to be able to explain it to you, however. But it has to do with the wet paint principle found in Romans 7:7-13. Perhaps I will come back and give a link to a document that might tell you the reality if you study it long enough. I doubt that you will read it; but I will do it for the sake of others here.

Wet Paint Principle (Freedom)



Indeed. My righteousness apart from Christ is indeed as filthy rags.

However, in Christ, the righteousness of saints is fine linen, clean and white (Revelation 19:8).

It is His righteousness imputed and imparted to me (Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6, 1 John 3:7).

It is given to me and thus I own it; it is mine: and it is also fine linen, clean and white. I have taken off the old man and put on the new.



If we do not have a practical righteousness in heaven, then heaven, truly, will not be heavenly. If practical sin is in heaven, then there is also suffering in heaven. I don't believe that: I believe that the righteousness given is not only imputed and positional; but imparted and practical: in order that heaven might truly be heavenly.



I know of God's grace in deeper ways than you can even imagine. There are five definitions of it:

1) simple favour

2) Getting what we don't deserve (heaven) as opposed to Mercy: Not getting what we do deserve (hell).

3) God's Riches At Christ's Expense

4) Goodness Rendered As Christ Empowers

5) the enabling power of the Lord.

I know that I am indeed "just by faith"

Not only does my doctrine teach that we are made just by faith alone (just by faith); but it teaches that we are made righteous/just by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Keep studying. You do not have the understanding that you think you do.

I sense also that there is a little bit of "grace as a license for sin" in what you believe (see the NIV's rendering of Jude 1:3-4).

My question was, in Heaven, why does your righteousness need enabling? Which you avoided. If you have no sin there, and none in you, why must your righteousness need enabling? Only because it is yours and not Christ's imputed righteousness.

See, you have revealed your righteousness in Heaven is nothing but your righteousness. You want to establish your righteousness with the help of Christ. You do not hold to the imputed Righteousness of Christ as you portray yourself as doing.

There is a lot of wet stuff on your doctrine but it aint paint.

Stranger
 

justbyfaith

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My question was, in Heaven, why does your righteousness need enabling? Which you avoided. If you have no sin there, and none in you, why must your righteousness need enabling? Only because it is yours and not Christ's imputed righteousness.

See, you have revealed your righteousness in Heaven is nothing but your righteousness. You want to establish your righteousness with the help of Christ. You do not hold to the imputed Righteousness of Christ as you portray yourself as doing.

There is a lot of wet stuff on your doctrine but it aint paint.

Stranger
To put it simply, we are righteous in the practical sense because the Lord has declared us righteous. He calls those things which be not as though they are (Romans 4:17); thus creating a new reality (for it is impossible for God to lie, Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18) of righteousness within us (see Romans 8:4).

Also, our righteousness is not by the law but through faith in Jesus Christ (Philippians 3:9). It has to do with the fact that we are not under the law (Romans 6:14), are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6). We are counted as righteous even when we blow it (Romans 4:5); and this serves to give us an identity in Christ (as righteous, 2 Corinthians 5:21) that we are to live by (1 John 3:7). There is the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ (Ephesians 4:12-13, 1 John 3:7) that stands as how the Lord sees us; and we live by that measure when we understand that it is truly our identity.

My righteousness in heaven is indeed my righteousness; but it was Christ's righteousness first, and is mine only because He has given it to me (Romans 5:15-19, Ephesians 2:8-9).

But I fear that I am casting my pearls before swine (Matthew 7:6); so I will refrain from saying any further what my doctrine entails. The LORD tells me that it is not a good idea to sow among thorns (Jeremiah 4:3-4).
 
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justbyfaith

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I find it interesting that it is a basic tactic of satan to seek to identify true and faithful doctrine as heresy in order to keep his agenda going.

Let us be Bereans (Acts of the Apostles 17:10-11) and study the word ourselves to find out who is really speaking forth the truth of the Lord.
 

Stranger

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To put it simply, we are righteous in the practical sense because the Lord has declared us righteous. He calls those things which be not as though they are (Romans 4:17); thus creating a new reality (for it is impossible for God to lie, Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18) of righteousness within us (see Romans 8:4).

Also, our righteousness is not by the law but through faith in Jesus Christ (Philippians 3:9). It has to do with the fact that we are not under the law (Romans 6:14), are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6). We are counted as righteous even when we blow it (Romans 4:5); and this serves to give us an identity in Christ (as righteous, 2 Corinthians 5:21) that we are to live by (1 John 3:7). There is the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ (Ephesians 4:12-13, 1 John 3:7) that stands as how the Lord sees us; and we live by that measure when we understand that it is truly our identity.

My righteousness in heaven is indeed my righteousness; but it was Christ's righteousness first, and is mine only because He has given it to me (Romans 5:15-19, Ephesians 2:8-9).

But I fear that I am casting my pearls before swine (Matthew 7:6); so I will refrain from saying any further what my doctrine entails. The LORD tells me that it is not a good idea to sow among thorns (Jeremiah 4:3-4).

What do you mean 'practical sense'? What other sense is there?

What do you mean 'a new reality'?

Christ's righteousness was and is His period. It is given to you as a gift by imputation. Not by any expectation for you to contribute, add, or mar it.

Understand that this does not do away with our sanctification. The same faith that imputed Christ's Righteousness to us, also born us again. Thus begins our walk with Him here of sanctification. Which is up and down at best. Sometimes we do well, sometimes we fail miserably. But what remains steadfast and immovable is our Righteous standing before God because it is the imputed Righteousness of Christ. It is ours by declaration only. This is the only reason we will forever be able to spend eternity with God. For it alone makes God just in allowing us there.

(Rom. 3:25-26) "...to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins...to declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

Your 'enabled righteousness' or 'imparted righteousness' is just that...yours. And will not measure up.

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justbyfaith

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It should be clear that in 1 John 3:7, it is speaking of a righteousness that we do.

And in this, we are righteous even as He is righteous (in the sense that we are doers of the word).

What more needs to be said?

I will say this; that in 1 John 3:3 it teaches that we can purify ourselves even as He is pure.

And in 1 John 2:6 it tells us that we can walk even as He walked.

In Jude 1:24, He is able to keep us from falling.

In 2 Peter 1:10, if we do these things we will
never fall.

In 1 John 2:10, if we love one another there is
none occasion of stumbling in us.

In 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, it should be clear that He also will do it.

Do what?
sanctify us wholly; and preserve us blameless unto the coming of Jesus Christ.

In Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), it is clear that He hath
perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

In 1 John 3:9, it should be clear that as those who are born again of the Holy Ghost we
do not commit sin; and also "cannot sin".

It has been suggested that this is hyperbole; and I am not against that pov.

However, if it is indeed hyperbole, then the message that is being set across is that when we become born again, there is a change of direction away from sin and towards righteousness. It may even be saying that we do not have to sin; that it is not inevitable that we should sin in the future. I like to throw in Proverbs 4:18 with this concept that 1 John 3:9 is hyperbole, to make it clear that you are going to be walking in a singular direction away from the old and towards the new:

Pro 4:18, But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

This means real repentance. You have made a 180-degree turn and are no longer walking in the direction of sin if you have been born again of the Holy Spirit.
 
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justbyfaith

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What do you mean 'practical sense'? What other sense is there?

As opposed to mere positional and imputed righteousness.

What do you mean 'a new reality'?

Whereas before, the person was ungodly, God declares him righteous; and, since it is impossible for God to lie, the person is now righteous not only in the imputed and positional sense; but in the practical and imparted sense.
 
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Stranger

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As opposed to mere positional and imputed righteousness.



Whereas before, the person was ungodly, God declares him righteous; and, since it is impossible for God to lie, the person is now righteous not only in the imputed and positional sense; but in the practical and imparted sense.

You want to use the term 'practical' but not 'positional'. You have now created a contradiction.

If the believer is righteous in both the positional and practical sense, then there is no need for the differing terms of 'practical' and 'positional'. The believer is just righteous.

The imputed righteousness of Christ does solidify the believer's position as righteous. The believers practical righteousness varies as his walk with the Lord varies.

Your failure to recognize the difference leads to your confusion. Your willful desire to place the believer under some sort of law leads to your confusion.

Imputation speaks to that which is declared only. A good example is found in (Heb. 7:9-10). Abraham paid tithes to Melchisedec. (Gen. 14:17-20) Levi was not even born yet. Yet it is declared that Levi because he was in Abraham's loins, also paid tithes to Melchisedec. (Heb. 7:9-10)

Now did Levi ever really pay tithes to Melchisedec? No. Never. But it is declared that he did by God.

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justbyfaith

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If the believer is righteous in both the positional and practical sense, then there is no need for the differing terms of 'practical' and 'positional'. The believer is just righteous.

The question you should ask yourself is whether the word "positional" is found in the Bible. I agree that the concept is there in imputed righteousness.

However, it is my belief that imputed righteousness is the very thing that makes imparted righteousness a possibility.

In declaring us righteous, the Lord calls those things which be not as though they are (Romans 4:17); thus creating the new reality that the person is righteous in deed and in truth.

He imputes righteousness so that the devil will not be able to get a hold of us if we sin and bring us to despair.

Our righteousness (in Christ) is unshakable in that He declares us righteous even when we are ungodly (Romans 4:5).

This does not mean that the Lord cannot or will not also impart righteousness to us.

The imputed righteousness of Christ does solidify the believer's position as righteous.

I agree.

The believers practical righteousness varies as his walk with the Lord varies.

This may be true; however I would say that if anyone commits sin it makes them a child of the devil (1 John 3:8); and that also there is a practical righteousness that can be imparted wherein we become righteous even as He is righteous (1 John 3:7).

Your failure to recognize the difference leads to your confusion. Your willful desire to place the believer under some sort of law leads to your confusion.

I certainly do not deny imputed righteousness. And while I believe that the law governs true believers from the inside (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16); I do believe that we are not under the law, are dead to the law, and are delivered from the law in that it no longer condemns us from the outside; and also it does not have the effect on us that it used to, wherein it wrought in us all manner of concupiscence because of the wet paint or forbiddden fruit principle (see Romans 7:7-13). So no, I do not believe that we are under the law. In fact, I believe that sin shall not have dominion over us (and sin is the transgression of the law, 1 John 3:4) because we are not under the law but under grace.

Imputation speaks to that which is declared only.

Correct. Of course, imputation is also a declaration of righteousness; and it is impossible for God to lie (Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18). Thus in declaring us righteous He takes us from being ungodly to righteous (Romans 4:17).

Now did Levi ever really pay tithes to Melchisedec?

I believe that he did; for he was in the loins of his father when Melchizedec met him.
 
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Stranger

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The question you should ask yourself is whether the word "positional" is found in the Bible. I agree that the concept is there in imputed righteousness.


I believe that he did; for he was in the loins of his father when Melchizedec met him.

You're the one that gave the term 'positional'. Not me. You created your contradiction. Not me. Why do I need to ask myself about it? See post #(212). In fact your the one that is throwing around all these 'terms'. 'practical', 'positional', and 'imparted'. The only term I have addressed is 'imputed righteousness' as opposed to your righteousness. So perhaps you should be asking yourself the question.

The Bible contains no 'concepts'. It contains truth. Your head is full of 'concepts'.

Levi did pay...by declaration only. He did not literally pay. During Levi's life, he never payed tithes to Melchisedec. Abraham literally paid. See, you want to confuse that which is historical and that which is imputed as one and the same. And they are not.

Your desire to place the believers under law forces you to do so.

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justbyfaith

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You're the one that gave the term 'positional'.

The term did not originate with me; but I was addressing it in the case that it might come up.

The Bible contains no 'concepts'. It contains truth. Your head is full of 'concepts'.

I sense hostility coming from you.

Levi did pay...by declaration only. He did not literally pay.

I do not see it that way.

During Levi's life, he never payed tithes to Melchisedec.

Levi was alive as a sperm/DNA in Abraham's loins when Melchizedec met him; and therefore he did indeed pay the tithe; just like the Bible says. But I am not really considering the implications that this has to our discussion; I am just being faithful to exegete correctly what is written in the word.

Your desire to place the believers under law forces you to do so.

As I have said before, I preach the law as a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25). There are those who think they believe who really don't; and they need the law as a schoolmaster. Therefore I point out that the law is written on the heart and in the minds of all those who are under the new covenant (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16).

The love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5) through faith (Galatians 3:14). This love is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4) and is also the bond of perfectness (Colossians 3:14). It is not in word or in tongue only; but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).

There is no just law that we will act in violation of if we bear the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23, Psalms 94:20).

Thus there is a righteousness of the Lord that comes to us apart from the law (for we receive the Spirit by faith); and yet both the law and the prophets testify to the fact that it is righteousness indeed! (Romans 3:21).
 

Stranger

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The term did not originate with me; but I was addressing it in the case that it might come up.



I sense hostility coming from you.



I do not see it that way.



Levi was alive as a sperm/DNA in Abraham's loins when Melchizedec met him; and therefore he did indeed pay the tithe; just like the Bible says. But I am not really considering the implications that this has to our discussion; I am just being faithful to exegete correctly what is written in the word.

No, you addressed it because you knew there is positional as opposed to practical. But when you did you developed a contradiction in your argument. Because you see no difference.

So?

Yes, I know you don't see it that way. Which is why you are in error. The whole idea of imputation is it is by declaration and not by the actual deed. Levi paid because God said he paid, but he never really paid. You are righteous because God says you're righteous through imputation.

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CNKW3

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It would appear that large numbers of Christians are opposed to the Gospel truth of imputed righteousness, and sincerely believe that they must add their own righteousness to the righteousness of Christ (or apart from the righteousness of Christ) in order to be accepted into Heaven.
The Bible, not you, tells us who will be “accepted” by God. It is those who fear God and “works” righteousness. Ac 10:35 Why do people oppose this clear gospel truth. And if it’s true it should harmonize with the rest of scripture. Let’s see!

Many even falsely believe that water baptism saves them.
What removes sin in the NT? Mk 16:16, ac 2:38, 3:19, 22:16, Rom 6:3,4,17,18, Col 2:11-13, 1 pet 3:21

Now show us all the passages that describe sins being removed in some other way.

Imputed righteousness is so foreign to human experience that if we did not have the Word of God to show us that God literally credits the righteousness of Christ to every believer’s spiritual account, none of us would believe it.
But imputed righteousness cannot be isolated from justification by grace through faith. Therefore if we believe that God justifies the ungodly because they have trusted wholly in Christ and His finished work of redemption, then we must also believe that at that very moment God places the *robe* of the righteousness of Christ upon the one who repents and believes God.
Why did you just add “repentance” to “imputed righteousness”? Rom 4 says nothing of repentance. This must mean we need to go outside of Rom 4 to fully understand what that means.

We first read of imputed righteousness in the Old Testament, but it is brought out clearly in the New Testament in the account of Abel, who was murdered by his brother Cain: By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.(Heb 11:4)
How did Abel obtain witness that he was righteous? Because Abel obeyed God and Cain didn’t. We know that because Rom 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing the word of God. God gave them direction. Abel followed it. Cain didn’t. He was not considered righteous because he stood there and “believed” in God.

In the same way Noah was deemed righteous because he believed, trusted, and obeyed God, his obedience being the outcome of his faith: But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. (Gen 6:8) We see here that grace and faith are connected.
You now just added obedience to imputed righteousness. That is correct. Noah was obedient to the direction given by God just like Abel. Grace provided the means of salvation and faith was displayed through obedience. The same as today. Noah would not have been a man of faith (Heb 11) without obedience.
Noah was also said to be a preacher of righteousness. What would he have preached? For them to live better more moral lives? Or, for them to listen and do what God had commanded? He was a preacher of righteousness because he preached the righteousness of God which at that time was...to build a boat.
Ps 119:172. All Gods commandments are righteousness.

we will get to Abraham next.
 
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CNKW3

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But the Holy Spirit uses the example of Abraham as the man who was justified by grace through faith, and to whom God imputed righteousness when he believed God:
And, behold, the Word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.And He brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and He said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he[Abraham] believed in the LORD; and He [the LORD] counted it to him for righteousness.
So you have Abraham saved at the point of Gen 15:6? That’s odd! In my Bible Abraham packed up his family and left Ur as God commanded him in Gen 12 and he was building altars, sacrificing animals, and calling on the name of the lord in chapters 12,13,14. The Bible teaches that....whosoever calls on the name of the lord shall be saved. So, Abraham was an obedient man of faith (saved) long before Gen 15.

Let’s add this passage to the discussion....
Genesis 26:3-5 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
why was Abraham a “man of faith”? Because he was obedient!

Also......you can’t have a proper study of Rom 4 without including James 2.
James 2:21-23 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Do you want to understand the true meaning of Rom 4 and Abraham? He explains it right here. “Imputed righteousness” happens when faith accompanies obedience (works). It is a “perfect faith” that saves and not a “dead faith” (one that believes only)

Also.....do you want to be Abraham’s seed, heirs according to the promise? I guess you do since you are using him this way. Then you MUST be baptized “into Christ” in order to be an heir with Abraham. Gal 3:26-29
See how baptism is directly connected to Abraham.
 

justbyfaith

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Yes, I know you don't see it that way. Which is why you are in error.

You say that I am in error; and yet I am preaching according to God's word. I conclude that you believe that God's word is in error.

Levi paid because God said he paid, but he never really paid.

God lied, huh?

You are righteous because God says you're righteous through imputation.

There is also a practical, imparted righteousness that is spoken of by the Holy Ghost in scripture.

So you have Abraham saved at the point of Gen 15:6? That’s odd! In my Bible Abraham packed up his family and left Ur as God commanded him in Gen 12 and he was building altars, sacrificing animals, and calling on the name of the lord in chapters 12,13,14. The Bible teaches that....whosoever calls on the name of the lord shall be saved. So, Abraham was an obedient man of faith (saved) long before Gen 15.

Yes, Abraham was first imputed righteousness in Genesis 15:6.

Let’s add this passage to the discussion....
Genesis 26:3-5 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
why was Abraham a “man of faith”? Because he was obedient!

Abraham was obedient because he was a man of faith; not the other way around.

Also......you can’t have a proper study of Rom 4 without including James 2.
James 2:21-23 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Do you want to understand the true meaning of Rom 4 and Abraham? He explains it right here. “Imputed righteousness” happens when faith accompanies obedience (works). It is a “perfect faith” that saves and not a “dead faith” (one that believes only)

Abraham was justified by works, and this is to his glory...just not before God. Romans 4:2.

Before God, Abraham was justified by faith alone...or, to be more precise, he was justified by faith apart from works. This should be clear from the following passages:

Romans 4:1-8

Ephesians 2:8-9

Titus 3:4-7

Romans 11:5-6 (kjv).

Abraham was justified by works before man...for God looks on the heart; but man looks on the outward appearance (1 Samuel 16:7).

And Jesus, being both God and Man...shall judge the world according to its works, being a Man...and according to whether they have faith, being God.

Their name is written in the Book of life or not on the basis of faith alone...and the things written in the other books will testify to man which is the case for each man.
 
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