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Featured Why do so many oppose imputed righteousness?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Enoch111, Oct 13, 2019.

  1. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I know. But (Rom. 2:12) has nothing to do with imputation. And (Rom. 5:13-14) explains (Rom. 5:12). Which you ignore.

    No. There is plenty wrong in what you are saying. I am just pointing it out. You present (Deut. 24:16) to prove that imputation doesn't mean that man does not die for his own sin. So, was Jesus our substitute or not?

    Again, you do not explain (Rom. 5:13-14). Just as I said in post #(237) you discount (13-14) due to your interpretation of (12). It demonstrates your error. It demonstrates that it is because of Adams sin that we die. Not our own. So, you disagree. Explain (Rom. 5:13-14).

    Stranger
     
  2. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    Whose sin killed them?

    Stranger
     
  3. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I have already explained adequately everything that I need to explain; and to continue debating with you would mean going in circles.

    You can believe if you want to that you will die for Adam's sin. For it is not an invalid interpretation of that passage.

    Personally I believe that the Bible teaches that we will die for our own sins that we commit; because we have inherited sin from Adam; and therefore we are sinners who sin: and therefore we will die for the sins that we have committed.

    You can reject that if you want. It's no skin off my back. You will be believing wrongly; but you certainly have a right in this country to believe the wrong thing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2019
  4. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    All men die because all men sin.

    Romans 5
    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
     
    justbyfaith likes this.
  5. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    More accurately, because all men have sinned.
     
  6. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    No, you haven't explained. You have ignored it.

    Was Jesus our Substitute? If Jesus is our Substitute, what does (Deut. 24:16) mean?

    Explain (Rom. 5:13-14).

    Stranger
     
  7. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    But their sin was not imputed to them. (Rom. 5:13)

    Stranger
     
  8. CNKW3

    CNKW3 Active Member

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    God didn’t promise ANYTHING to Abram in chapters 12-14? Really?

    Genesis 12:1-4 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
    ........Looks like some promises to me. What did Abram do? He obeyed and went. What did he do along the way? Built altars, sacrificed to God, and called on the name of the lord.
    What did God say in the very beginning to Cain? “If you do well will you not be accepted

    This is a promise for ALL men of ALL time. This promise still stands today. If you do well, will you not be accepted. Acts 10:34,35

    so Abram had faith but wasn’t saved? Nice. So much for being saved by faith.

    The Bible doesn’t say that in Gen 15:6.
    If you want to go down that road then let’s let the Bible tell us when at what point God knows of Abraham’s faith...
    Genesis 22:10-12 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
    .......This is all in perfect harmony with what the NT teaches us about Abraham. James mentions this event and explains to us that it was Abraham’s faith plus works or obedience that led to him being accounted as righteous. Nowhere do we find Abraham being considered righteous before he did anything. Nowhere. And this is what you people want to teach.....just sit on your couch, watch some Billy Graham rerun, lift holy hands (they really aren’t) to God and pray for Jesus to come into your heart and WAMMO! You are accounted as righteous! Congratulations! Your ticket is punched! And NOWHERE is anybody ever told to do that for salvation but it doesn’t matter to you people. You make up your own doctrine anyway.
     
  9. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    It means what God meant by it.

    Do you think that it contradicts the fact that Jesus is our substitute?

    Then you have a problem with your understanding of scripture; for in your mind the scripture contradicts itself.

    Unless you yourself don't believe that the holy scriptures teach that Jesus is our substitute...

    Personally, I believe that they do.
     
  10. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Rom 5:13, (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    Rom 2:12, For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2019
  11. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Did Abraham believe in the LORD, that the LORD's promises were true, at the moment of Genesis 12:1-4; or does scripture teach that Abraham believed in the LORD at the time of Genesis 15:6 and it was accounted to him for righteousness?

    God knew that Abraham feared him in Genesis 22; but He knew that He believed in Him in Genesis 15:6: otherwise He would not have accounted his faith as righteousness at that point.

    It should be clear what is written in that verse: that Abraham believed in the LORD and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

    This did not happen in Genesis 12:1-4; it happened in Genesis 15:6.

    So this would indicate that faith in God's promises was not there until Genesis 15:6.

    It would also indicate that there can be outward obedience apart from real faith.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2019
  12. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    Rom 10:6, But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: )
    Rom 10:7, Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
    Rom 10:8, But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
    Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
    Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Jhn 3:14, And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    Jhn 3:15, That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    Jhn 3:16, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


    Isa 45:22, Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

    Jhn 6:47, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2019
  13. CNKW3

    CNKW3 Active Member

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    So, Abrams obedience had nothing to do with faith? Let’s let the Bible contradict what you just said...
    Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
    The Bible says that Abram left his home BY FAITH! This DOES NOT say he just obeyed having no belief in God. Faith and obedience are tied together in this passage and all of that happened in chapter 12.
     
  14. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    In other words you ignore again. In other words, Scripture is against you. And you stick your ...head in the sand. Explain (Rom. 5:13-14).

    If Jesus is our Substitute, what does (Deut. 24:16) mean. It is you who want to say we die for our own sins, not Adams. So, explain.

    Stranger
     
  15. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    Oh gee. That was deep.

    Explain (Rom. 5:13-14).

    Stranger
     
  16. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    All I know is that God counted Abraham's faith as righteousness at the time of Genesis 15:6.

    Already did.

    What God says it means.
     
  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I just did, in the post that you just responded to.

    You don't like the explanation; I can understand that.

    Nevertheless, the explanation is adequate.

    Scripture interprets scripture (1 Corinthians 2:13 (kjv)).
     
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Am I to consider that you are contending for the idea that Jesus isn't our substitute?
     
  19. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    What a coward. Crawfish.

    Stranger
     
  20. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    What a coward. Crawfish.

    Stranger
     
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