Founding Fathers = Christians or...?

[Stranger]

The very existence of the 501(c)(3) in the Internal Revenue Code is a clear indication of the lack of separation between church and state today. Many people and often pastors or leading ministers presume that it is a good thing because it reduces or eliminates the payment of taxes. They should realize the leverage it does give secular government against any church taking advantage of its provisions. When someone in authority decides a church does not qualify any more or initially...? Many churches likely could not afford to pay the taxes which would then apply to them.

A similar provision is available to ministers of churches. They may choose to not pay taxes at all. This includes Social Security taxes. I know from experience on the job with SSA and while some have chosen to pay the taxes, many others have not. I wonder how many make their decisions for personal financial reason rather than due to a conviction with God.

I agree. It will be used as leverage against the church. Eventually, if you don't let women be pastors, or homosexuals be pastors, it will be threatened against them. Worse, if the church preaches hate, it will be used against them. And of course the enlightened liberal atheist will determine what is hate.

In the future, if the Lord hasn't returned yet, I do not doubt there will be efforts to silence the church in preaching the blood of Christ. They will probably say it is too morbid, and teaches human sacrifice. You can preach the goodness of man. You can even preach the Sermon on the Mount, but don't be preaching about human sacrifice and blood.

Roger Williams probably had an idealistic view of the separation of church and state. For the state was highly influenced by Christianity in his day. He was not viewing an atheistic secular state. Little did he realize that separation of church and state would mean just that.

Have you read (How Should We Then Live?) by Francis A. Schaeffer? Excellent book.

Stranger

 

[amadeus]

I agree. It will be used as leverage against the church. Eventually, if you don't let women be pastors, or homosexuals be pastors, it will be threatened against them. Worse, if the church preaches hate, it will be used against them. And of course the enlightened liberal atheist will determine what is hate.

Yes, unfortunately our forefathers who did love God could not see far beyond their own limited circumstances. They worked hard to make a workable, fair Constitution and then included the first 10 Amendments, a Bill of Rights, to protect the right of a person to hold an minority opinion or belief without no adverse consequences. The problem is that already we have seen the Bill of Rights bypassed by re-defining the terms or even by simply getting the Supreme Court of the United States to declare something constitutional or unconstitutional when even a layman could see that the reverse was truth. The Court's decision is the law of the land... even if it is wrong...

Consider, the Patriot Act passed in the heat of a terrible moment after the bombing of the twin towers, which suspended the right to due process even for citizens when only accused of terrorist activities. So much for 'innocent until proven guilty'. Just having an enemy with the authority to make such an accusation, with no real evidence could put a person in jail with no right to state his case before a judge.

In the future, if the Lord hasn't returned yet, I do not doubt there will be efforts to silence the church in preaching the blood of Christ. They will probably say it is too morbid, and teaches human sacrifice. You can preach the goodness of man. You can even preach the Sermon on the Mount, but don't be preaching about human sacrifice and blood.

Again, yes, and they do not to have remove the rights of Christians as protected by the Constitution, they will simply re-define [as has already been done in measures by people in this country] what a "Christian" is. Simply join and stand with a church which has or will agree to government rules and you too will be OK...(at least for the moment) in the eyes of men.

Roger Williams probably had an idealistic view of the separation of church and state. For the state was highly influenced by Christianity in his day. He was not viewing an atheistic secular state. Little did he realize that separation of church and state would mean just that.

I do understand. There have been and likely are some men who are really good in their heart toward God and even their enemies but have failed to understand how depraved people are or can be. Can we love a person who would remove our right to exist according to our beliefs if he had the ability to do so?

Many people who present themselves as Christian would probably give the right words in answer to that question, but when it hits home, can they do it? If they were given the situation that Germans were given with regard to the Jews, could they-- could we-- act as Jesus would have done in the same situation? It is one thing to say it and quite another to do it.

Who am I even to say that I could do it right? Never having been in that situation or anything really like it, I would hope to God that He would help me to still go His Way, no matter the pain...

Have you read (How Should We Then Live?) by Francis A. Schaeffer? Excellent book.

Stranger

Again, no! Too bad I did not have more incentive to find and read more that was worthwhile when I was young and energetic. I read a lot when I was young, but too often it was the junk of my own day. Now I still read but there is never enough time or incentive for all that now might interest me. My Bible, yes, of course, but all of these others? I have noted this one you suggested as well in my growing list of things to look for and to read. Thank you for your help.

 

[Stranger]

Yes, unfortunately our forefathers who did love God could not see far beyond their own limited circumstances. They worked hard to make a workable, fair Constitution and then included the first 10 Amendments, a Bill of Rights, to protect the right of a person to hold an minority opinion or belief without no adverse consequences. The problem is that already we have seen the Bill of Rights bypassed by re-defining the terms or even by simply getting the Supreme Court of the United States to declare something constitutional or unconstitutional when even a layman could see that the reverse was truth. The Court's decision is the law of the land... even if it is wrong...

Consider, the Patriot Act passed in the heat of a terrible moment after the bombing of the twin towers, which suspended the right to due process even for citizens when only accused of terrorist activities. So much for 'innocent until proven guilty'. Just having an enemy with the authority to make such an accusation, with no real evidence could put a person in jail with no right to state his case before a judge.


Again, yes, and they do not have remove the rights of Christians as protected by the Constitution, they will simply re-define [as has already been done in measures by people in this country] what a "Christian" is. Simply join and stand with a church which has or will agree to government rules and you too will be OK...(at least for the moment) in the eyes of men.


I do understand. There have been and likely are some men who are really good in their heart toward God and even their enemies but have failed to understand how depraved people are or can be. Can we love a person who would remove our right to exist according to our beliefs if he had the ability to do so?

Many people who present themselves as Christian would probably give the right words in answer to that question, but when it hits home, can they do it? If they were given the situation that Germans were given with regard to the Jews, could they-- could we-- act as Jesus would have done in the same situation? It is one thing to say it and quite another to do it.

Who am I even to say that I could do it right? Never having been in that situation or anything really like it, I would hope to God that He would help me to still go His Way, no matter the pain...

Again, no! Too bad I did not have more incentive to find and read more that was worthwhile when I was young and energetic. I read a lot when I was young, but too often it was the junk of my own day. Now I still read but there is never enough time or incentive for all that now might interest me. My Bible, yes, of course, but all of these others? I have noted this one you suggested as well in my growing list of things to look for and to read. Thank you for your help.

You're quite welcome.

If and when that day should come in our time, I'm sure the Holy Spirit will give us what is needed.

Stranger

 

[amadeus]

You're quite welcome.

If and when that day should come in our time, I'm sure the Holy Spirit will give us what is needed.

Stranger

This I believe as well. The key, as I see it, is to stay always on God's side. Being there, everything that happens to us will be in accord with His perfect will.

 

[Stranger]

To understand America's religious origin, you have to understand Puritanism. The Puritans in England were not a denomination of Protestants. Puritanism was to the Anglican Church of England what the Reformation was to the Roman Church. Much of what I say here comes from the books I have already documented and mentioned.

Many Christians recognized the need for the reformation of the Anglican Church. They considered the King of England no different than the Pope. They began being called Puritans by those who disliked them. You had two types of Puritans. Those who wanted to reform the church from within were called Non-Separatists. And those who wanted to leave the church called Separatists. So, those who were labeled Puritans could have been Congregationalist, Presbyterian, or Anglican. What made them Puritans was their desire to reform the English Anglican Church. (Faith & Freedom, p.83)

"Puritanism has always been associated with rebellion. Rebellion was an act they engaged in reluctantly, but when their government forced them, as it often did, to choose between their monarch's will and what they believed to be Christ's will, there was no doubt whom they would obey." (Faith & Freedom, p. 84)

"Perhaps more than any Christian sect, Anabaptists rejected human pronouncements and accepted as authoritative, only the unadorned word of God. The branch of Protestantism one associated with usually had a bearing on one's politics. Episcopalians identified more readily with aristocracy and Toryism; Presbyterianism with republican government; Congregationalism with democracy......" (Faith & Freedom, p. 85)

"It was these kinds of people, mainly Congregationalist and Separatist Protestants, who, prodded by the royal and church bureaucracy, decided in the 1630's to leave Old England for New England....the Protestant cause in England appeared dead." (Faith & Freedom, p. 85)

Stranger

 

[GallyTrot]

"The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian Doctrine."
George Washington

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
Thomas Jefferson

"The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."
Abraham Lincoln

"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst."
Thomas Paine

"During almost fifteen centuries the legal establishment known as Christianity has been on trial, and what have been the fruits, more or less, in all places? These are the fruits: pride, indolence, ignorance, and arrogance in the clergy. Ignorance, arrogance, and servility in the laity, and in both clergy and laity, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classified with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and the freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated Reformer of human errors."
Thomas Jefferson

"When the Know-Nothings get control, it [the Declaration of Independence] will read: "All men are created equal except negroes, foreigners and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy."
Abraham Lincoln

"In every country in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. "
Thomas Jefferson, from letters to Horatio G. Spafford and Dr. Thomas Cooper.

"An alliance or coalition between Government and religion cannot be too carefully guarded against......Every new and successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance........religion and government will exist in greater purity, without (rather) than with the aid of government."
James Madison

Awesome quotes! Here here!

 

[Philip James]

An alliance or coalition between Government and religion cannot be too carefully guarded against

Unfortunately an alliance between government and the godless is even worse...

Pray for our countries, and their leaders,
That they might humble themselves before God and so be blessed.

Peace!

 

[Stranger]

"The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian Doctrine."
George Washington

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
Thomas Jefferson

"The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."
Abraham Lincoln

"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst."
Thomas Paine

"During almost fifteen centuries the legal establishment known as Christianity has been on trial, and what have been the fruits, more or less, in all places? These are the fruits: pride, indolence, ignorance, and arrogance in the clergy. Ignorance, arrogance, and servility in the laity, and in both clergy and laity, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classified with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and the freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated Reformer of human errors."
Thomas Jefferson

"When the Know-Nothings get control, it [the Declaration of Independence] will read: "All men are created equal except negroes, foreigners and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy."
Abraham Lincoln

"In every country in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. "
Thomas Jefferson, from letters to Horatio G. Spafford and Dr. Thomas Cooper.

"An alliance or coalition between Government and religion cannot be too carefully guarded against......Every new and successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance........religion and government will exist in greater purity, without (rather) than with the aid of government."
James Madison

Awesome quotes! Here here!

Why do you give quotes and don't give the reference where you got them from? Just saying someone said something means nothing.

You are covering a time period 200 and 300 years after the Americans formed their laws to live by.

America was founded as a Christian nation. The corruption and corrosion you describe is after the fact.

Do your homework.....here, here.

Stranger

 

[amadeus]

Awesome quotes! Here here!

But then again:

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." Prov 3:5-6

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Matt 6:33-34

And then again, who are these higher powers?

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God." Rom 13:1