Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

[reformed1689]

There is the "second death" but that is at Judgment.

I specify because Penal Substitution Theory focuses on Jesus experiencing a spiritual death rather than a physical death. That is why @Steve Owen insists Jesus experienced three hours of what the lost will experience in Hell (which he attributes to spiritual death).

In the Bible the focus is physical death (the "second death" is Christ-centered judgment and not a part of the "sin problem" remedied at the cross by definition, but rather the product of the Cross as all judgment is given the Son).

I don't think Genesis is merely talking about physical death. It said for in the day that you eat you will surely die. However, they did not experience a physical death the day that they ate it. However, they did experience a spiritual death that would be binding had there not been redemption.

 

[reformed1689]

The wages of sin is death.

Yes....physical and spiritual.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I'm not sure what you're asking with this one.

"Only covers our sins while they remain."

Instead of taking the sin away, the sin is only covered, but it remains.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

"Only covers our sins while they remain."

Instead of taking the sin away, the sin is only covered, but it remains.

Doesn't quite compute- I'm sorry.
If you're somehow asking about Once Saved Always Saved, I in no way believe that.

 

[CharismaticLady]

What I mean is that I believe Jesus died for our sins, to redeem mankind - NOT instead of us but for us. I do not believe Christ was a substitute but a representative (along the line of a "second Adam" or representative of the "new man").

cc: @David Taylor

Okay, I think I see what you are saying, and if so, then I agree, though I don't know if you will agree with my literal take or are more in line with David, just that you say it in a different manner. (David, I'm sorry, but you are not going to like this...) It has to do with the prophecy of what Jesus would accomplish in Daniel 9:24

To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,

Adam sinned and cursed mankind and the pure human nature took on the nature of Satan. It is not the individual sins that Jesus died for, though it certainly affected them, but Jesus defeated by His death, the whole Satanic nature - the works of the devil, allowing us to return again to the pure human nature Adam had before he sinned.

Even with Adam's pure human nature he could still choose to sin, which he did. But he didn't have to; he was not yet a slave to sin. That is why even though we who are born again to the pure human nature God created (the divine nature), can force ourselves to willfully sin by dwelling on temptation and letting it take root, and return again to the Satanic nature - to perdition as in Hebrews 10:39 and to death, trampling the Son of God underfoot, counting the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified (past tense, so there are errors in the doctrine that 'sanctification' is a life long process of overcoming sin. Wrong. There is a "process" but it isn't sanctification, and it doesn't have to do with overcoming sin, but maturing the divine nature 2 Peter 1) a common thing, and insulting the Spirit of grace. Hebrews 10:26-31

 

[CharismaticLady]

Doesn't quite compute- I'm sorry.
If you're somehow asking about Once Saved Always Saved, I in no way believe that.

There are some who believe that grace means that the blood of Jesus acts like an invisibility cloak so the Father can't see the sins we still commit. He only sees Christ's blood. I believe what I just wrote in the post above to John. That the blood completely takes away the sin, and the Father sees US clean. Not only that, but that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what makes our old nature born again and we can partake of the divine nature (2 Peter 1).

 

[Jane_Doe22]

There are some who believe that grace means that the blood of Jesus acts like an invisibility cloak so the Father can't see the sins we still commit. He only sees Christ's blood. I believe what I just wrote in the post above to John. That the blood completely takes away the sin, and the Father sees US clean. Not only that, but that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what makes our old nature born again and we can partake of the divine nature (2 Peter 1).

Ok, now I know what you're talking about.

My view: coming unto Christ is in NO way a license to sin. If you that do something that is against the Lord's ways (which we all do at regular points), then you have sinned. You need to repent and turn back to Him. There's no saying "oh, I'm born again so when I lied there it wasn't a 'sin', it was _____". You sinned and need to repent.

Walking with Christ is a life long+ journey.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Ok, now I know what you're talking about.

My view: coming unto Christ is in NO way a license to sin. If you that do something that is against the Lord's ways (which we all do at regular points), then you have sinned. You need to repent and turn back to Him. There's no saying "oh, I'm born again so when I lied there it wasn't a 'sin', it was _____". You sinned and need to repent.

Walking with Christ is a life long+ journey.

The power of the baptism with the Holy Spirit makes it so you will not lie in the first place. Jesus not only takes away the lie, He took away the desire to lie. That is being born again.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

The power of the baptism with the Holy Spirit makes it so you will not lie in the first place. Jesus not only takes away the lie, He took away the desire to lie. That is being born again.

On that I respectfully disagree. Temptation is real, even for committed Christians. Yes, coming unto Christ reduces the urge, teaches you better, allows you to be fortified with the Spirit. But very seldom does every temptation go away during this lifetime.

 

[CharismaticLady]

On that I respectfully disagree. Temptation is real, even for committed Christians. Yes, coming unto Christ reduces the urge, teaches you better, allows you to be fortified with the Spirit. But very seldom does every temptation go away during this lifetime.

What do these verse in 1 John 3 mean to you?

5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin.

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

James also said, besides the verses on temptation, to resist the devil and he will flee from you. That is not something you learn, like those under the law, but by the love for God that burns within you to not willfully sin. That's my take.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

What do these verse in 1 John 3 mean to you?

5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin.

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

James also said, besides the verses on temptation, to resist the devil and he will flee from you. That is not something you learn, like those under the law, but by the love for God that burns within you to not willfully sin. That's my take.

My view: This is talking big picture, when we are completely like Him. Not in this life time.

Of course I do respect your view as well. Your questions here have been good.

 

[CharismaticLady]

My view: This is talking big picture, when we are completely like Him. Not in this life time.

Of course I do respect your view as well. Your questions here have been good.

I believe we will either be one of four things when we die. Two categories go to hell; two go to heaven. The two that go to heaven are the righteous, and the holy. There will be no sinners. Revelation 22:11

Good night. Great conversing with you.

 

[John Caldwell]

I don't think Genesis is merely talking about physical death. It said for in the day that you eat you will surely die. However, they did not experience a physical death the day that they ate it. However, they did experience a spiritual death that would be binding had there not been redemption.

I believe Genisis is speaking of a physical death and the "second death" the Christ-centered judgment as a direct result of the Cross as all judgment is given to Christ.

The reason I believe this is the verse in Genisis does not say that Adam would die on the day he eats of the fruit. The language is literally "die" "die". Normally when we see this type of wording (in the Psalms, with "amen" "amen") we take it to be emphatically affirming the statement. On the day Adam ate of the fruit death was certain. (Many scholars have interpreted it as "dying you will die", although I would not choose that wording).

Another reason I do not believe this to be a spiritual death is that I see no evidence Adam was created "spiritually alive" and then died spiritually. Ultimately I believe Adam was in need of a Savior, but this fact was not manifested until he transgressed God's command (as evidenced by the fact he ate of the fruit).

A third reason is throughout Scripture death as a consequence of sin is a physical death after which is the judgment. It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.

A fourth reason is that I do not see in Genesis a reason to spiritualize the verse. The idea Adam died spiritually when he ate of the fruit would be a vital truth if it was true. As such I would expect Scripture to emphasize this. But it does not.

A fifth reason is that is is never presented this way in Jewish religion or tradition. This is not evidence, but it is something I believe would have been addressed at least in the New Testament were it wrong (again, because if correct it would be a vital truth). But Paul emphasizes the physical death in hopes of a resurrection (a physical body), and Jesus states it is for man to die once.

A sixth reason is no one in Scripture is said to have died spiritually. Those who are lost are dead because they lack Life. But spiritual life is presented as eternal life as this Life IS Christ.

A seventh reason is Scripture presents Adam as being made "upright", it was "good", but not the second in type. The idea Adam possessed spiritual life invalidates Christ as the "sevond Adam" and becoming a "life giving Spirit". It shifts redemption from becoming like Christ to becoming like original man.

 

[John Caldwell]

cc: @David Taylor

Okay, I think I see what you are saying, and if so, then I agree, though I don't know if you will agree with my literal take or are more in line with David, just that you say it in a different manner. (David, I'm sorry, but you are not going to like this...) It has to do with the prophecy of what Jesus would accomplish in Daniel 9:24

To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,

Adam sinned and cursed mankind and the pure human nature took on the nature of Satan. It is not the individual sins that Jesus died for, though it certainly affected them, but Jesus defeated by His death, the whole Satanic nature - the works of the devil, allowing us to return again to the pure human nature Adam had before he sinned.

Even with Adam's pure human nature he could still choose to sin, which he did. But he didn't have to; he was not yet a slave to sin. That is why even though we who are born again to the pure human nature God created (the divine nature), can force ourselves to willfully sin by dwelling on temptation and letting it take root, and return again to the Satanic nature - to perdition as in Hebrews 10:39 and to death, trampling the Son of God underfoot, counting the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified (past tense, so there are errors in the doctrine that 'sanctification' is a life long process of overcoming sin. Wrong. There is a "process" but it isn't sanctification, and it doesn't have to do with overcoming sin, but maturing the divine nature 2 Peter 1) a common thing, and insulting the Spirit of grace. Hebrews 10:26-31

I don't agree with the meaning of the verse in Hebrews but I mostly agree with your view here.

Where I would differ is I tend to look at salvation from the end result (those who are saved are those who will be in the end). But this is probably due largely to my own traditions and presuppositions.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think I have to agree on your point of Adam not having eternal life in Him, John...he did not eat from that tree and was prevented from eating from it after he disobeyed God. But it's almost too much to grasp because while he didn't have eternal life in Him, death wasn't even a thing until his disobedience...scratches she head...!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I have also been able to grasp, for the most part, what you have said about not believing Jesus died so I don't have to and not believing that God punished Him instead of me. I agree, even though it is difficult for me to grasp.

 

[reformed1689]

The reason I believe this is the verse in Genisis does not say that Adam would die on the day he eats of the fruit

It actually does say the day. It does not just say die die, though that is certainly there, but yom is definitely present in the statement. Now, granted, yom doesn't always mean a literal 24-hour day. However, something did happen to Adam and Eve when they sinned. They DID become spiritually dead. Just as we are all now born spiritually dead which is why we must be born again. This is basic theology John. They did die in the day that they ate spiritually and the physical death would also come as part of that death. But we know from chapter three that they did not die in the day that they ate it, not physically, but they were dead spiritually. They needed regeneration. They were separated from God.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I don't agree with the meaning of the verse in Hebrews but I mostly agree with your view here.

Where I would differ is I tend to look at salvation from the end result (those who are saved are those who will be in the end). But this is probably due largely to my own traditions and presuppositions.

"Differ" with David or with me? I too believe you must endure to the end, but it comes from the power of the Holy Spirit, otherwise the Law could have saved us. But the Law was weak through the flesh, Romans 8:1-9 and only produced the struggle of Romans 7, not yet having the Spirit in Romans 8 to overcome the works of the devil.

How do you see Hebrews 10?

 

[John Caldwell]

It actually does say the day. It does not just say die die, though that is certainly there, but yom is definitely present in the statement. Now, granted, yom doesn't always mean a literal 24-hour day. However, something did happen to Adam and Eve when they sinned. They DID become spiritually dead. Just as we are all now born spiritually dead which is why we must be born again. This is basic theology John. They did die in the day that they ate spiritually and the physical death would also come as part of that death. But we know from chapter three that they did not die in the day that they ate it, not physically, but they were dead spiritually. They needed regeneration. They were separated from God.

Yes. On that day.

You interpret the verse to read "you will die spiritually on the day you eat of the fruit and physically about 900 years afterwards".

I interpret the verse to read "on the day you eat of the fruit you will surly die". (Not "you will die on the day you eat of the fruit").

In other word, I believe it was through Adam's transgression that death entered the world. Death moved from a "potential" to a "certainty".

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yes. On that day.

I interpret the verse to read "on the day you eat of the fruit you will surly die". (Not "you will die on the day you eat of the fruit").

Good point, and I agree.