It's just re-posting something as a reminder for a person to reply. It's been a lively discussion here, and I suspect my question just got lost in the shuffle.
Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5
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CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
@Jane_Doe22
What does your church believe about the affect of the blood of Jesus on sin?
1. Takes away our sin nature and the sins it produced?
2. Takes away our past sins
3. Takes away our past, present and future sins that we must repent of daily
4. Only covers our sins while they remain.
5. Something else? What?
What does your church believe about the affect of the blood of Jesus on sin?
1. Takes away our sin nature and the sins it produced?
2. Takes away our past sins
3. Takes away our past, present and future sins that we must repent of daily
4. Only covers our sins while they remain.
5. Something else? What?
It was God reconciling mankind to Himself, forgiving our sins. There is no condemnation in Christ.
Scripture tells us God will forgive when we repent. IMHO this repentance is dying to sin and being made alive in Christ it is a recreation.
Our sins do not have to be punished - the sinner in us needs to die. That is the greatest difference in our views.
Christ did not die "to pay for our sins". Christ died to pay for us (to redeem us and propitiate our sins as our High Priest) . He had to become one of us (a curse, be made sin) to be our High Priest and Representative.
It's like when my wife comes at me with a frying pan.
Good questions, getting to real meat & potatoes.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God and perfect lamb. His willing sacrifice and atonement was taking our (all that believe on Him) sins onto Himself so that we may be made clean. It also enabled Him to perfectly understand our suffering and succor us in our afflictions. His death and resurrection also of course paves the way for us all to physically rise from the dead during the resurrection as well.
It does cover all blame from Adam's Fall and each individual believes sins.
Of course, all that are repented of.
Repenting & walking with Christ is not a once-and-done thing. Rather they are daily things. If tomorrow I screw up and cave to sin, then of course I will need to repent. This does of course get smoother with a humble heart & closer relationship with Christ-- the core of it is that heart & life given to Christ.
I'm not sure what you're asking with this one.
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You just confused me several times. I'm trying though.
I'll take this one step at a time, going with the (1). Of course Christ is not condemned. But I thought you just said that Christ suffering /atonement / death was not directly related to the forgiveness of sins. Can you help me out with just this first point first?
Sure. But keep in mind I am a Grateful Dead fan.
The Cross is about forgiveness. It is not about God punishing Christ instead of punishing us.
Instead it is about man sharing in Christ's death and resurrection. It is about repentance, being made new creatures no longer in bondage to sin and death.
If I am a new creation in Christ then I am forgiven those sins to which I have died (I am no longer the person I once was).
This is the Kingdom of God with Kingdom people.
So the punishment for sin... it is waved away or? What happens to it?Sure. But keep in mind I am a Grateful Dead fan.
The Cross is about forgiveness. It is not about God punishing Christ instead of punishing us.
Instead it is about man sharing in Christ's death and resurrection. It is about repentance, being made new creatures no longer in bondage to sin and death.
If I am a new creation in Christ then I am forgiven those sins to which I have died (I am no longer the person I once was).
This is the Kingdom of God with Kingdom people.
The wages of sin is death. We suffer death. Jesus became a curse for us and also suffered death for our sins (He is sinless).
I believe Christ saves us not from physical death but by giving us life.
The only other condemnation is at Judgment which is Christ-centered. Those who are condemned are so because the Light has come into the world and they hated the Light. This Judgment is not canceled by Christ's work but justified because of it (the Father gives all judgment to the Son).
*Time out*
Not both? Do you not believe in a physical resurrection as well?
I am more confused.
Responding to this later.
What happened to the punishment of sin? Was it paid, waved, or ___?
Jane,
If someone repented of their sin do you believe that sin would still require punishment in order for that person to be forgiven?
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I believe we do physically die and then are resurrected. What I mean is we are not spared physical death.
I do not see how sin can be punished. People can be punished but not actual sin. We die to sin and are made new in Christ. Sin is forgiven (there is no sin to be punished...we are made new creatures and freed from the bondage of sin and death). We are crucified with Christ.
How would it be just to require a new creation to be punished for the old? This is forgiveness, possible by repentance, possible only in Christ.
God having to punish sin in order to forgive sin is not forgiveness.
My view--
Justice exists.
Justice cannot be waved away.
But I'm trying to understand YOUR view.
This is one issue (judicial philosophy).
Look at it this way - a man sins. There are two possible just actions. Punish the sinner (not the sin but the man for sinning) or change the sinner into a non-sinner. I believe God justly forgives men by the work of Christ on the cross (we are crucified with Christ - we die to sin).
I do not believe human sin creates a debt God must have satisfied to preserve justice. I do not believe retributive justice the correct judicial philosophy for divine justice.
The best way to understand my view is probably to read the writings of the early church and perhaps C. S. Lewis. They are more articulate than I and the basis of the "classic" view is the same regardless of minor differences. The focus is on re-creation rather than punishment.
Focusing on something versus saying that is doesn't exist are two VERY different things.
It's one thing to acknowledge Christ's suffering for us and have the focus be on a new creation.
It's another to say Christ that Christ didn't suffer for us.
I think you misunderstood me. I do believe Christ suffered for us. It is by His stripes we are healed.
I suggest it is one thing to say Christ bore our sins, was chastened for our well being, died for our sins and redeemed us while another all together to view that as God punishing Jesus instead of punishing us. The former is biblical while the latter presupposes retributive justice onto Scripture.
I'll pick back up tomorrow. I took on one too many cases today and am a bit brain dead. Calling it a night.
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