Verses that DON'T convey what they say ...

[jshiii]

We MUST ardently purse the deeper things, and that takes effort and persistence!


Bobby Jo

I Agree! We that are in Christ, that are still in the FLESH, have VERY BIG EGOS! It takes constant brokenness, faith and being humble to accomplish the "effort and persistence!" Being continually in PRAYER is the KEY!!

 

[reformed1689]

I told you that you'd waste both of our time, because you can't even follow a thought which is outside your paradigm.

BOOKS OF THE KING JAMES BIBLE (KJV)

1. Genesis
2. Exodus
3. Leviticus
4. Numbers
5. Deuteronomy
6. Joshua
7. Judges
8. Ruth
9. 1 Samuel
10. 2 Samuel
11. 1 Kings
12. 2 Kings
13. 1 Chronicles
14. 2 Chronicles
15. Ezra
16. Nehemiah
17. Esther
18. Job
19. Psalms

Apparently we can't trust our Legislators, our State Department, our Law Enforcement, our Intelligence Agencies, and the list goes on and on and on, and includes people who tell us they're "Pastors" when in fact they're simply HIRELINGS.


Whew,
Bobby Jo

And you ignored the part where the order of the books was NOT PART OF SCRIPTURE and have NO significance with regard to Biblical teaching.

 

[Bobby Jo]

And you ignored the part where the order of the books was NOT PART OF SCRIPTURE and have NO significance with regard to Biblical teaching.

Please bother somebody else. There's no truth in you.


... Hirelings ...
Bobby Jo

 

[reformed1689]

Please bother somebody else. There's no truth in you.


... Hirelings ...
Bobby Jo

You are finding truth in things that are not part of Scripture and you say there is no truth in me? Are you not honest enough to acknowledge that the order of the Bible has nothing to do with actual Scripture? Or that the Bible was not written in chapter and verse?

 

[Bobby Jo]

To All,

It's it interesting that @David Taylor asked what VERSE in Scripture we can find the YEAR -- which indicates the start of the tribulation. I then explained it wasn't a VERSE, -- it's a Chapter. So he asked what CHAPTER.

So when I gave him the CHAPTER, he apparently asserts that CHAPTERS OR VERSES don't count:

The OT books are arranged in topical order. Has nothing to do with Scripture itself.​

I can't decide his greater offense, -- Lying, Duplicity, or Deception. -- So I guess I'll choose ALL THREE!



... "Negative-added-value" HIRELINGS ...
Bobby Jo

 

[FHII]

Chapter! -- Who said "verse". I never said "verse". If you want me to cite a "verse", then you're out of luck.


And yeah, I don't think you're in any mood to consider what Scripture says, so why waste BOTH our time?!?
Bobby Jo

Well, fist off... Because this is a public forum and you and David Taylor aren't the only ones in the thread. Second, because I actually agree with you on what was said about a point, and I want to see why you believe so. That way I can compare it to what I know.

 

[reformed1689]

To All,

It's it interesting that @David Taylor asked what VERSE in Scripture we can find the YEAR -- which indicates the start of the tribulation. I then explained it wasn't a VERSE, -- it's a Chapter. So he asked what CHAPTER.

So when I gave him the CHAPTER, he apparently asserts that CHAPTERS OR VERSES don't count:

The OT books are arranged in topical order. Has nothing to do with Scripture itself.​

I can't decide his greater offense, -- Lying, Duplicity, or Deception. -- So I guess I'll choose ALL THREE!



... "Negative-added-value" HIRELINGS ...
Bobby Jo

I did not say chapter and verses don't count. I said they have no bearing on biblical truth because they are not part of Scripture. This is referring to the chapter NUMBERS and the verse NUMBERS. If you think chapter and verse numbers are part of Scripture and inspired you are delusional and clearly ignorant of reality.

 

[101G]

We MUST ardently purse the deeper things, and that takes effort and persistence!

Agreed, not saying any is right or wrong,
Addressing the OP only. I understand your concern, but the bible is a openly sealed book. meaning it cannot be understood by human effort alone, unless accompanied by the one who has broken, or loosed the seal to understand it. no one smarts/Education or the lack of education can understand on their own. scripture,
Isa 29:9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
Isa 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
Isa 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

so the educated and the un-educated are in the same boat, we all need the Master help. but fear not, the bible interpret itself, if you let it. in your first example, "the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence ... ". just look somewhere else and you'll have your answer.
Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

here the Kingdom of God that is preached is the Gospel, (KNOWLEDGE, and UNDERSTANDING). the "press into it" is to be sway, which is another word for "press", and to be swayed is to be Persuaded, meaning To demand earnestly or pressingly. so let's see it clearly. 2Cor 5:11 "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences". there it is in a nut shell.

Now the “suffereth violence”. using the old Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English, “violence”, here used as a verb means, To assault; to injure; also, to bring by violence. What’s another word for injure? “DESTROY”, scripture, Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame".

so the Kingdom of Heaven is preached, or at hand, meaning the Gospel suffered or was rejected by men until John where as Men are persuaded/compel to enter in.

what was promised now needs compelling. but those who believe the "violent", (once sinners), here which is a noun, and not the verb, are converted, and enter in, (take it by Force), or by persuasion, (meaning pressed into it, they repented). supportive scripture,
Matt 21:28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
Matt 21:29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
Matt 21:30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
Matt 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Matt 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

That persuasion of the Gospel allowed them, the “violent” to REPENT, and enter into the Kingdom.

PICJAG

 

[Heart2Soul]

It's always disturbing to hear someone cite Scripture which doesn't convey what people come away with. Take for example:

• "the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence ... ", -- where people presume that Christians will be persecuted, when in fact WE are the ones who must use "violence" (better: ardent action) to receive the things of GOD.

• "don't worry about tomorrow for today ...", -- where people think we shouldn't plan, when in fact, if we sit around "planning", nothing will get done today. And what you should have accomplished TODAY, will have to be done TOMORROW. So do what you can TODAY, and worry about tomorrows tasks, tomorrow!

• "no man knows the day or the hour ...", -- where people extrapolate this to presume we can't know ANYTHING about the timing of Jesus' return, when certainly the YEAR is cited in Scripture, and we can know HIS return down to the WEEK.

... among others ...​

And of course there are MANY other verses which are not properly rendered from the Original text (Masoretic or other), typical of:

• "seventy weeks are decreed ...", which is interpreted as seventy sevens = 490, when in fact the "weeks" are not the usual Concise Feminine Gender text, but instead are the UNUSUAL INCONCISE Masculine Gender text. Thus the durations could be any number EXCEPT 490.

• "seven and sixty two ...", where Newton observed that summing the two numbers "does violence to Scripture", as NO nation or society uses numbers in such fashion, and that if GOD had wanted to convey "sixty-nine" HE would have said "sixty-nine".

... among others ...​

But often times we are so committed to our "understandings" that we refuse to change from our "tradition" to FACT. It's like my favorite aunt used to tease: My mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts! -- The difference being that she was only kidding, but the church is SERIOUS!


Bobby Jo

Excellent topic! I have argued many times with those who have done this very thing....
Here is one that I would like your take on:
Psalm 37:4 which says to delight ourselves unto the Lord and he will give us the desires of our heart....
4 Delight thyself also in Jehovah; And he will give thee the desires of thy heart.

So I used to believe that God grants us the desires we wish for in our heart......I was later corrected to learn that the desires of our heart are given by Him.....changing from worldly or fleshly to spiritual.

What is your take?

 

[Bobby Jo]

... chapter and verses ... have no bearing on biblical truth ...

You presume more than you can defend. I'm not proposing that the size or script choice, or the color of our leather binding, or the pattern on our bible jacket is "Scriptural". But I am proposing that GOD is NOT UNAWARE that when men (and men wrote the Original Masoretic Text) ORDERED the Books and NUMBERED the Chapters and Verses, that GOD might have been part of that process. But who can judge without considering???


And you refuse to consider, so you are an unrighteous judge!
Bobby Jo

 

[reformed1689]

You presume more than you can defend. I'm not proposing that the size or script choice, or the color of our leather binding, or the pattern on our bible jacket is "Scriptural". But I am proposing that GOD is NOT UNAWARE that when men (and men wrote the Original Masoretic Text) ORDERED the Books and NUMBERED the Chapters and Verses, that GOD might have been part of that process. But who can judge without considering???


And you refuse to consider, so you are an unrighteous judge!
Bobby Jo

And I'm saying you would do just as good with a Ouiji board.

 

[DNB]

I told you that you'd waste both of our time, because you can't even follow a thought which is outside your paradigm.

BOOKS OF THE KING JAMES BIBLE (KJV)

1. Genesis
2. Exodus
3. Leviticus
4. Numbers
5. Deuteronomy
6. Joshua
7. Judges
8. Ruth
9. 1 Samuel
10. 2 Samuel
11. 1 Kings
12. 2 Kings
13. 1 Chronicles
14. 2 Chronicles
15. Ezra
16. Nehemiah
17. Esther
18. Job
19. Psalms

Apparently we can't trust our Legislators, our State Department, our Law Enforcement, our Intelligence Agencies, and the list goes on and on and on, and includes people who tell us they're "Pastors" when in fact they're simply HIRELINGS.


Whew,
Bobby Jo

Bobby Jo, DT was correct. I trust that you are aware, like DT said, that the chapters and verses that our modern translations have, including the KJV, are all man made conventions, and again, strictly for reference. In other words, even the masoretic order of books is different than ours, not to mention, with the Christian Bibles, even the canon is not consistent in some circumstances. This is not open to controversy, it is just a textual critical fact, agreed to by all reputable textual critics.

Bobby Jo, I'll be honest, you sound extremely radical and credulous, easily drawn into conspiracy theories and bad exegetical practices. And to be further honest, your 1st post had that written all over it. I'm not saying this to insult you, but to warn you. I don't agree with a single claim that you made, to the point, that there's quite an irony to your OP.

Stick to scripture BJ, study the Hebrew & Greek if you're becoming too mystified with the English translations? Look up the manuscript, then come back and tell us if any of your theories have a leg to stand on?
BJ, please tell me that you're not a KJV Onlyist also? If so, again, not a rational leg to stand on!

 

[reformed1689]

You presume more than you can defend.

No, I can absolutely defend my position about the reference numbers. You are reading things into the text that are not a part of the text.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Excellent topic! I have argued many times with those who have done this very thing....
Here is one that I would like your take on:
Psalm 37:4 which says to delight ourselves unto the Lord and he will give us the desires of our heart....
4 Delight thyself also in Jehovah; And he will give thee the desires of thy heart.

So I used to believe that God grants us the desires we wish for in our heart......I was later corrected to learn that the desires of our heart are given by Him.....changing from worldly or fleshly to spiritual.

What is your take?

Hi H2S,

You make me laugh! -- I was hoping that each person had a verse which THEY could expound upon where they found a different conveyance than the literal text might appear to present. -- Not that I'd be asked to propose a solution for "interesting" passages..

But not to be absent from your conversation, let me share what I've recently experienced and then proceed from there! --

I anticipate needing food, shelter, & supplies in ~18 months (16-17 months to be more precise). As such I bought a 480 sq. ft. cabin as a "lifeboat" for my wife and I which also has a 1,000 sq. ft. enclosed "workshop" with little wiring and no plumbing which could be used as a "bunk house"/"lifeboat" for my children & grandchildren. As I was working on the little cabin, moving walls, and insulating, and renovating, I had my wife's little "Boston" with me and he'd be bored so we'd go for a "walk" around my absent neighbor's 1,730 sq. ft. cabin, which I asked GOD to help me purchase as the BETTER "llifeboat" for my children and grandchildren. And in walking "Elam" many many times, I pulled about 800 - 1,000 "goats-beard" noxious weeds on that property.

I had looked at buying the property but couldn't afford it at $250K, and then it went into foreclosure. I had asked the realtor to let me know when it Listed, he apparently forgot and another person's $185K offer was Accepted, but the purchaser demanded that the septic be replaced, the roof penetrations re-caulked, and he was using his GI Bill to finance. Meantime the realtor told me to get all my paperwork in order and ready to submit because he thought the purchaser was going to pull out, and sure enough the day before closing he pulled out.

So my wife and I offered $176K (GI) and I'm now working on improving that cabin, which will comfortably accommodate my children's families.​

As such, it appears that when we ask for a loaf of bread, GOD will not give us a rock. It's HIS desire to help supply our needs, but we MUST be part of the equation using our Purse, Bag, and Sword (Luke 20:35-36) as appropriate!

With Best Regards,
Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

... I don't agree with a single claim that you made, ...

I love pudding, -- not so much chocolate, but vanilla in particular. And the best way to judge pudding is NOT the color, or smell, or texture, or consistency. The BEST way to judge pudding is by TASTE!

And so far, nobody is willing to TASTE the pudding, so keep your opinions to yourself until you TASTE TEST the pudding.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. ​

Bobby Jo

 

[reformed1689]

I love pudding, -- not so much chocolate, but vanilla in particular. And the best way to judge pudding is NOT the color, or smell, or texture, or consistency. The BEST way to judge pudding is by TASTE!

And so far, nobody is willing to TASTE the pudding, so keep your opinions to yourself until you TASTE TEST the pudding.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. ​

Bobby Jo

That's because your pudding is actually diarrhea. Not Scripture. Not from God.

 

[DNB]

Hi H2S,

You make me laugh! -- I was hoping that each person had a verse which THEY could expound upon where they found a different conveyance than the literal text might appear to present. -- Not that I'd be asked to propose a solution for "interesting" passages..

But not to be absent from your conversation, let me share what I've recently experienced and then proceed from there! --

I anticipate needing food, shelter, & supplies in ~18 months (16-17 months to be more precise). As such I bought a 480 sq. ft. cabin as a "lifeboat" for my wife and I which also has a 1,000 sq. ft. enclosed "workshop" with little wiring and no plumbing which could be used as a "bunk house"/"lifeboat" for my children & grandchildren. As I was working on the little cabin, moving walls, and insulating, and renovating, I had my wife's little "Boston" with me and he'd be bored so we'd go for a "walk" around my absent neighbor's 1,730 sq. ft. cabin, which I asked GOD to help me purchase as the BETTER "llifeboat" for my children and grandchildren. And in walking "Elam" many many times, I pulled about 800 - 1,000 "goats-beard" noxious weeds on that property.

I had looked at buying the property but couldn't afford it at $250K, and then it went into foreclosure. I had asked the realtor to let me know when it Listed, he apparently forgot and another person's $185K offer was Accepted, but the purchaser demanded that the septic be replaced, the roof penetrations re-caulked, and he was using his GI Bill to finance. Meantime the realtor told me to get all my paperwork in order and ready to submit because he thought the purchaser was going to pull out, and sure enough the day before closing he pulled out.

So my wife and I offered $176K (GI) and I'm now working on improving that cabin, which will comfortably accommodate my children's families.​

As such, it appears that when we ask for a loaf of bread, GOD will not give us a rock. It's HIS desire to help supply our needs, but we MUST be part of the equation using our Purse, Bag, and Sword (Luke 20:35-36) as appropriate!

With Best Regards,
Bobby Jo

So then, to make a long story short, you do not agree with H2S's interpretation? They said, in short, God places the actual desires in one's heart, but you just proved that God grants the predefined desires of one's heart?
I'm not disagreeing either way, just attempting to clarify? I personally agree with the latter interpretation to Psalm 37:4. (strictly in regard to that verse, but there are other verses that I believe, support the former view).

 

[Bobby Jo]

No, I can absolutely defend my position about the reference numbers. You are reading things into the text that are not a part of the text.

I don't disagree with your "reference number" observation. I simply disagree that they're not part of SCRIPTURE!


Afterall, English, binary, UPC's, and palm/retinal scans are part of Prophecy; as are the world's distant continent nations which are deemed "Extra-Biblical"; as are helicopters and tanks.


Perhaps your side blinders are interfering with your vision,
Bobby Jo

 

[DNB]

I love pudding, -- not so much chocolate, but vanilla in particular. And the best way to judge pudding is NOT the color, or smell, or texture, or consistency. The BEST way to judge pudding is by TASTE!

And so far, nobody is willing to TASTE the pudding, so keep your opinions to yourself until you TASTE TEST the pudding.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. ​

Bobby Jo

Your pudding was based on eschatological theories, how am I currently to test them?

 

[Bobby Jo]

So then, to make a long story short, you do not agree with H2S's interpretation? They said, in short, God places the actual desires in one's heart, but you just proved that God grants the predefined desires in one's heart?
I'm not disagreeing either way, just attempting to clarify? I personally agree with the latter interpretation to Psalm 37:4. (strictly in regard to that verse, but there are other verses that I believe, support the former view).

I can give my opinion/observation/experience on the verse. Is that insufficient?

Now can you give a SIMILAR opinion/observation/experience as to whether the J.R. Church premise has any Scriptural AND Historical basis?


Bobby Jo