Are Doctrines affected by Modern Versions

[DNB]

I certainly would never buy either dittography or haplography. It seems too deliberate and recurrent to have been accidental either way. My personal take is that they were reinforcing particularly key phrases deliberately at the price of redundancy. This habit was clearly displayed in the epistles, as they often repeated basic Christian teachings over and over and over again, setting forth "a pattern of teaching" to all the churches. Jude likewise made reference to repeating certain teachings his readers were already well aware of (Jude 1:5). But to subtract repetitions from the text would be to instead go directly against this principle and the expressed intentions of the apostles, and it once again leaves you asking why they elected to do so.

I meant as far as the corruption of the text as a whole, ....that all the variances, at best, were due to either haplography, dittography, bad writing implements, sloppiness, carelessness, etc. So that, the somewhat random nature of the variances, as far as focusing on any specific doctrine or principle is concerned, completely defies the possibility of conspiracy or design.

 

[ReChoired]

Now, ReChoired, you're showing either a blatant ignorance, or a blatant bias.
By the most elementary principle, regarding sacred text or not, the oldest is the most reliable because it is the closest to the originals, and thus, less time for copyist errors and manipulation, well intended or not. ...

What I stated is correct, even by textual critic standards and historical citation and eyewitness.

"... The oldest New Testament manuscript fragment is P52, which dates to about 125 AD. However, the earliest manuscripts that provide distinguishable readings date to about 200 AD (e.g. P46, P66). These manuscripts come from Egypt and are witnesses of the Alexandrian text-type. However, the antiquity of these manuscripts is no indication of reliability because a prominent church father in Alexandria testified that manuscripts were already corrupt by the third century. Origen, the Alexandrian church father in the early third century, said:

"...the differences among the manuscripts [of the Gospels] have become great, either through the negligence of some copyists or through the perverse audacity of others; they either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they lengthen or shorten, as they please."​

(Bruce Metzger, The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, 3rd ed. (1991), pp. 151-152).
Origen is of course speaking of the manuscripts of his location, Alexandria, Egypt. ..." - Aren't older manuscripts more reliable? - King James Version Today​

 

[CharismaticLady]

If the discrepancies only showed up consistently in Westcott and Hort, I think I would view them with suspicion as well. But often their readings coincide perfectly with Vaticanus and Alexandrinus, which I hold to be the two most authoritative texts. (Not that I have any feelings about Westcott and Hort either way. I pay them no mind actually).

Granted, it's my opinion, but Vaticanus and Alexandrinus continue to witness to me to this day, and on an issue like this I have to go with what the Spirit of God within me witnesses to, as we all do.

Check 1 John 5:7 and let me know what they say, and if they agree.

 

[Taken]

Lets compare one verse, 1 John 4:3:

NIV - but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

RSV - and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already.

ASV and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already.

KJV - And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

We see here in 1 John 4:3 that the NIV takes out the whole point in the text, "NIV leaves out the fact that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh--yet another swipe at the divinity of Christ." https://mundall.com/erik/NIV-KJV.htm

Other text in the NIV speak of Jesus coming in the flesh.

Pertaining to this particular text (1 John 4:3),
I have more of an issue with "FROM" instead of "OF".


Every spirit is FROM God...but Every spirit is not OF God.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Hidden In Him]

I meant as far as the corruption of the text as a whole, ....that all the variances, at best, were due to either haplography, dittography, bad writing implements, sloppiness, carelessness, etc. So that, the somewhat random nature of the variances, as far as focusing on any specific doctrine or principle is concerned, completely defies the possibility of conspiracy or design.

I know. I understood you and we're largely in agreement. I do believe there are some instances where sloppiness/carelessness seems to be the case. Thinking of creating a thread to discuss important textual variants as a matter of fact. Maybe in a few days.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Check 1 John 5:7 and let me know what they say, and if they agree.

Yeah, all texts leave out the v.7 clause except the TR.

I'm getting very interested in studying this stuff more in depth now. Maybe I'll post a thread soon and we can all get down to having some good discussions on what should be the proper readings in light of the theological evidence.

 

[ReChoired]

...I'm getting very interested in studying this stuff more in depth now. Maybe I'll post a thread soon and we can all get down to having some good discussions on what should be the proper readings in light of the theological evidence.

Sounds like complete lunacy.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yeah, all texts leave out the v.7 clause except the TR.

I'm getting very interested in studying this stuff more in depth now. Maybe I'll post a thread soon and we can all get down to having some good discussions on what should be the proper readings in light of the theological evidence.

It would be nice to have a time machine and be a fly on the wall, and see what everyone was up to.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Sounds like complete lunacy.

Why?

 

[ReChoired]

Why?

When he does what he says he will do, and you join in, then, you'll see.

 

[Ezra]

That depends on what you know about what is true grace. Is it a get out of jail free card?

PAUL COVERED that
Romans 6:1-2 King James Version (KJV)
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

That depends on what you know about what is true grace. Is it a get out of jail free card?

i can tell you a lot about true grace . grace is NOT a get out of jail free card .. Grace is God riches at Christ expense GRACE IS THERE WHEN YOU SIN AND BEFORE YOU SIN . OUR SALVATION IS FAR MORE SECURE than what many want to believe.. there are those who think you have to beg and plead with God to keep you saved . people need to mature grow in grace and knowledge
1 peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


2 Peter 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


there is conviction the rooster crowed on peter just like Christ told him he would Christ looked at him conviction hit peter he wept ..a broken and contrite spirit . Godly sorrow bring repentance. so in your silly statement is Grace a get out of jail free card.. if you get in spiritual bondage/jail .you will we all do you bet its a get out of jail free card . if one is using it as a trump card reason to stay in sin... good chance there is no salvation .

let me ask you this do you go to bed and wake up wondering if your still saved ?

 

[Hidden In Him]

When he does what he says he will do, and you join in, then, you'll see.

. What's with all the negativity? It's really no different than discussing interpretations of Biblical passages, only in this case you are dealing with texts that potentially present falsehoods rather than just personal interpretations of a text that is agreed upon as trustworthy.

Why?

If you ask me, I think he's being a Christmas chicken, LoL.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Mormons believe God was once a man, and earned His own planet to rule and be a got, and that both Jesus and Satan are brothers.

FWIW,
Now none hese statements really accurately reflect LDD beliefs. “Anti cult “ sources tend to greatly skew how they present other folks beliefs.

 

[DNB]

What I stated is correct, even by textual critic standards and historical citation and eyewitness.

"... The oldest New Testament manuscript fragment is P52, which dates to about 125 AD. However, the earliest manuscripts that provide distinguishable readings date to about 200 AD (e.g. P46, P66). These manuscripts come from Egypt and are witnesses of the Alexandrian text-type. However, the antiquity of these manuscripts is no indication of reliability because a prominent church father in Alexandria testified that manuscripts were already corrupt by the third century. Origen, the Alexandrian church father in the early third century, said:

"...the differences among the manuscripts [of the Gospels] have become great, either through the negligence of some copyists or through the perverse audacity of others; they either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they lengthen or shorten, as they please."​

(Bruce Metzger, The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, 3rd ed. (1991), pp. 151-152).
Origen is of course speaking of the manuscripts of his location, Alexandria, Egypt. ..." - Aren't older manuscripts more reliable? - King James Version Today​

That's fine, and I imagine that your point is true, in and of itself. But it's accusation is not specific to any particular MSS, in that the same suspicion must be laid against the Byzantine & Western text too. For again, no one expects perfection in copying manuscripts by hand, over the centuries, by both professional and unprofessional scribes & copyists. This goes without saying.
Plus, we expect a certain level of audacity, as far as emendations & interpolations are concerned, from all the text families, as that is human nature. Again, this goes without saying.
For, I'd be hard-pressed to believe that when divided into text-types, the Alexandrian family of manuscripts would carry the most variances within their same text-type, whereas within the Byzantine MSS, they have fewer variances between them. I cannot imagine that this would be the case.

Thus, again, no one can claim conspiracy or doctrinal manipulation, based on the rather random, nature and focus of the variances. i.e. the variances are not consistent and thorough enough, as far as affecting the same Christian principles and doctrines are concerned.

 

[CharismaticLady]

PAUL COVERED that
Romans 6:1-2 King James Version (KJV)
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
i can tell you a lot about true grace . grace is NOT a get out of jail free card .. Grace is God riches at Christ expense GRACE IS THERE WHEN YOU SIN AND BEFORE YOU SIN . OUR SALVATION IS FAR MORE SECURE than what many want to believe.. there are those who think you have to beg and plead with God to keep you saved . people need to mature grow in grace and knowledge
1 peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


2 Peter 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


there is conviction the rooster crowed on peter just like Christ told him he would Christ looked at him conviction hit peter he wept ..a broken and contrite spirit . Godly sorrow bring repentance. so in your silly statement is Grace a get out of jail free card.. if you get in spiritual bondage/jail .you will we all do you bet its a get out of jail free card . if one is using it as a trump card reason to stay in sin... good chance there is no salvation .

let me ask you this do you go to bed and wake up wondering if your still saved ?

Grace is the power of God given to us. You said it yourself:


2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

And yes, I wake up abiding in Him.

1 John 3:21-24
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

How do I know for sure? All my prayers are answered.

 

[CharismaticLady]

FWIW,
Now none hese statements really accurately reflect LDD beliefs. “Anti cult “ sources tend to greatly skew how they present other folks beliefs.

You can explain it, then. What do you believe about Jesus? Did God produce Jesus with one of His wives after God, Himself, existed. Or has Jesus as the Word always existed and is God. And where did God come from? Was He always God? Or was He once a man.

Where do you get your doctrines? Are they all from the Bible and the Book of Mormon? Or were some things added by different prophets to include in Doctrines and Covenants?

What I like about Mormons is they keep their consciences clear. And they do believe in the Bible story of Jesus - whether or not you have His origins correct or not. I believe we will see both JW's and Mormons in heaven with all other righteous and holy Christians.

 

[Ezra]

How do I know for sure? All my prayers are answered.

i john 3 is dealing with assurance of our salvation .so if we have sinned and ask for forgiveness from a true heart all will be forgiven. did you ever have to ask your parents to forgive you? how did you know your parents still loved you after you got in trouble? i will answer more later off to family christmas dinner

 

[CharismaticLady]

i john 3 is dealing with assurance of our salvation .so if we have sinned and ask for forgiveness from a true heart all will be forgiven. did you ever have to ask your parents to forgive you? how did you know your parents still loved you after you got in trouble? i will answer more later off to family christmas dinner

Yes, and I like that we can test if our assurance is sure, by whether or not God answers our prayers, and not on OSAS.

Have a great dinner. Merry Christmas.

Ezra, here is another verse from 2 Peter 1 we quoted earlier:

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these (above this verse) things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

That implies if you don't do those things and stumble and remain in that sinful condition, your call and election are not still sure.

We are being saved, and it is a daily check, not OSAS.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

You can explain it, then. What do you believe about Jesus? Did God produce Jesus with one of His wives after God, Himself, existed. Or has Jesus as the Word always existed and is God.

Jesus Christ is the one and only Begotten Son of God, whose mortal birth we celebrate today. He has always existed, created the Earth, was born and laid in a manger, lived a perfect life, suffered & died on the cross, to raise again on the third day. He alone is the Savior of the World, and it is through His sacrifice that each of us can be saved. LDS Christians do not believe in once-saved-always-saved.

And where did God come from? Was He always God? Or was He once a man.

We know that God the Son lived a mortal life. Any speculation on the Father in that regard is just that: speculation, and plays zero role in active day-to-day beliefs.

Where do you get your doctrines? Are they all from the Bible and the Book of Mormon? Or were some things added by different prophets to include in Doctrines and Covenants?

"Where do you get your doctrines?" God, via revelation & the Holy Spirit. He alone is the source of Truth. Scriptures are records of revelations and super important, but He Himself is the ultimate source of Truth. If a person wishes to know something themselves, they should seek Him.

And they do believe in the Bible story of Jesus - whether or not you have His origins correct or not. I believe we will see both JW's and Mormons in heaven with all other righteous and holy Christians.

This post was in-a-nutshell style, let me more if you want me to go more in-depth on anything or address the "anti cult" skewed things.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Jesus Christ is the one and only Begotten Son of God, whose mortal birth we celebrate today. He has always existed, created the Earth, was born and laid in a manger, lived a perfect life, suffered & died on the cross, to raise again on the third day. He alone is the Savior of the World, and it is through His sacrifice that each of us can be saved. LDS Christians do not believe in once-saved-always-saved.

We know that God the Son lived a mortal life. Any speculation on the Father in that regard is just that: speculation, and plays zero role in active day-to-day beliefs.

"Where do you get your doctrines?" God, via revelation & the Holy Spirit. He alone is the source of Truth. Scriptures are records of revelations and super important, but He Himself is the ultimate source of Truth. If a person wishes to know something themselves, they should seek Him.



This post was in-a-nutshell style, let me more if you want me to go more in-depth on anything.

When I lived in Arizona, we lived in a village founded by Mormons, and I had a neighbor whose ancestor was best friends with Joseph Smith. I got a lot of my information from her. It appears that Joseph Smith taught that God was once a man on another planet before being exalted to Godhood. You said:

Any speculation on the Father in that regard is just that: speculation, and plays zero role in active day-to-day beliefs.

How could Joseph Smith found a whole denomination on what he speculated? So you are saying, not all Mormons believe Joseph Smith to be an infallible prophet? I like that. They believe what the Bible says.