Our Two “I’s”

[Netchaplain]

Believers function by two natures: I the old man and I the new, but “live” and “walk” only after one (Gal 5:25), because nobody can have two masters (Mat 6:24). It’s not merely in the desire to sin, but also in the willingness to sin that confirms the “dominion” of sin (Ro 6:14) in the “natural man”! Believers, in the presence of desiring sin via the old nature, will not to sin via the new; and believers are what they are after the new nature, not the old, because though it is in us—we are not in it, “but in the Spirit” (Ro 8:9).

This answers to Paul’s “I’s” in the Seventh of Romans: “it is no longer I (after the new man) who do it, but sin (I in the old man) that dwells in me”; “if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me” (vs 17, 20). It’s the new man—the “I myself” (Ro 7:25)—that we are after, and by which God always considers us, it being the “nature” by which we are “partakers of the divine nature” of Christ (2Pe 1:4).

“Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for His seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God” (1Jn 3:9). The “seed” within the believer is the “new man” or new nature from Christ, which is where we do not sin, and is the “no longer I who do it” (Ro 7:17, 20). Where we sin is in the old nature, which is the “sin that dwells in me”; of which we are free concerning its guilt and dominion, and from which God completely separates our souls. Regardless of discouraging and disappointing times, and from where they came (which are only faith-strengthening exercises), I am never in that which I “serve after the flesh,” but always in that which “with the mind I myself serve” (Ro 7:25).

 

[justbyfaith]

It was the error of gnosticism that taught that what we do in the flesh doesn't matter because it is not our real selves doing the committing of the sins.

I would simply point out that when we sin in the flesh, it is still us sinning and we will be held accountable for what we do on our day of judgment.

We cannot say that we are not accountable for what we did over the fact that it was sin dwelling in us that was doing the committing of sin.

It is our responsibillity to avail ourselves of Christ's offer to destroy the body of sin (Romans 6:6) and to put off the body of the sins of the flesh (Colossians 2:11); so that sin is effectively eradicated from the practice of our lives. If we do not, then we are accountable for what sin does as it indwells us.

We are to put sin to death within us (Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:6, Romans 7:8); so that it no longer has any say or authority over what we do or our behaviour. It still, may indeed, dwell within us (1 John 1:8). But because it is put to death, we do not any longer have to live according to its dictates in our lives.

 

[Helen]

Believers function by two natures: I the old man and I the new, but “live” and “walk” only after one (Gal 5:25), because nobody can have two masters (Mat 6:24).

Agree the two natures are there...and it depends on which nature we chose to feed to be strong...flesh or Spirit.
I like what Gene Edwards said ... " When you get up in the morning which 'life' are you going to live in? His or yours. ?"

Our performance is not the reason but the outcome of who's life we live in ...
'in Christ, or out..' And whose voice we listen to to believe. :)

 

[mjrhealth]

Agree the two natures are there...and it depends on which nature we chose to feed to be strong...flesh or Spirit.
I like what Gene Edwards said ... " When you get up in the morning which 'life' are you going to live in? His or yours. ?"

Our performance is not the reason but the outcome of who's life we live in ...
'in Christ, or out..' And whose voice we listen to to believe. :)

Amen

 

[Netchaplain]

It was the error of gnosticism that taught that what we do in the flesh doesn't matter because it is not our real selves doing the committing of the sins.

I would simply point out that when we sin in the flesh, it is still us sinning and we will be held accountable for what we do on our day of judgment.

Hi JBF, and I always appreciate your replies and comments, with which I agree. Verse 25 of Chapter 7 is clear that Paul owns up ("I myself") to all that he does, and that he is not speaking of any other person. I believe there is good explanatory instruction in vs 14 and 23 because they describe the believer's sins as one who commits against the will, which can be seen in the words "sold under sin" and "captive." This is the state of a slave or prisoner who must do things against the will and desire of their heart and conscience, which is the condition of only those regenerate.

It is our responsibillity to avail ourselves of Christ's offer to destroy the body of sin (Romans 6:6) and to put off the body of the sins of the flesh (Colossians 2:11); so that sin is effectively eradicated from the practice of our lives. If we do not, then we are accountable for what sin does as it indwells us.

True, the life of a believer will exhibit, as much as lies within our understanding, a continued decrease in the ways of our sin nature, and I think it's most important though to attribute this to the Spirit in His work of mortification against our old man (Gal 5:17; Rom 8:13). I feel we should always remember that only God can do this, and that when we feel we have a part in the doing of it is when we fail in it. Our part is merely to be used by Him through His enabling us in the life of Christ (new nature) via His Spirit's power. This is the sole means of addressing the old man, and it manifests itself by the believer in the outward show of holiness against the "body of sin" of the old man (Col 3:5).

I also find it important to be clear that we cannot live apart from being effected by the sin nature, and that for the saved, we are never held guilty as we continue to deal with it, for God's glory, of course.

We are to put sin to death within us (Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:6, Romans 7:8); so that it no longer has any say or authority over what we do or our behaviour. It still, may indeed, dwell within us (1 John 1:8). But because it is put to death, we do not any longer have to live according to its dictates in our lives.

To me, the primary sense in being crucified is that of being held alive but restrained, and in a position of death because of the pain. I haven't seen it written yet that the sin nature is dead to us in effecting us, but we are "dead to sin" (Rom 6:2, 11) which relates not to its presence and work against us, but I believe this death is only in reference to its power to "condemn" (Ro 8:1) and "dominate" (6:14).

 

[Netchaplain]

Agree the two natures are there...and it depends on which nature we chose to feed to be strong...flesh or Spirit.
I like what Gene Edwards said ... " When you get up in the morning which 'life' are you going to live in? His or yours. ?"

Our performance is not the reason but the outcome of who's life we live in ...
'in Christ, or out..' And whose voice we listen to to believe. :)

HI Sis, and thanks for your input! I like your encouraging reply, and I also find it instructional to realize that believers will always choose to "please" God, because thankfully, He "works" this in our hearts and minds (Phil 2:13). Regardless of how often we may want to take any credit for holy living, it's all God. This keeps us from interfering and from the taxing concept of relying on self. I can always trace every disappointment back to self-dependence.

 

[justbyfaith]

I feel we should always remember that only God can do this, and that when we feel we have a part in the doing of it is when we fail in it.

I do believe that the Lord calls upon us to mortify the deeds of the body...He does not do that for us...but we must do it in the power of the Holy Ghost. Romans 8:13 is clear:

Rom 8:13, For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

 

[marks]

It was the error of gnosticism that taught that what we do in the flesh doesn't matter because it is not our real selves doing the committing of the sins.

I would simply point out that when we sin in the flesh, it is still us sinning and we will be held accountable for what we do on our day of judgment.

We cannot say that we are not accountable for what we did over the fact that it was sin dwelling in us that was doing the committing of sin.

It is our responsibillity to avail ourselves of Christ's offer to destroy the body of sin (Romans 6:6) and to put off the body of the sins of the flesh (Colossians 2:11); so that sin is effectively eradicated from the practice of our lives. If we do not, then we are accountable for what sin does as it indwells us.

We are to put sin to death within us (Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:6, Romans 7:8); so that it no longer has any say or authority over what we do or our behaviour. It still, may indeed, dwell within us (1 John 1:8). But because it is put to death, we do not any longer have to live according to its dictates in our lives.

Being successful at putting off the old man is realizing our freedom from sin and from law. Thinking that this is still in any way "me", and that "I" must be improved is to become under the yoke of slavery to these requirements, our new 'law'.

Knowing that Jesus has freed me indeed from the corruption in this world by the putting off through circumcision my flesh, and it's evil works is the faith that causes me to stand in His grace, which makes this freedom become my life experience.

These two viewpoints, "I must be improved" and "I am complete in Christ" are in complete opposition to each other. Our completion in Him is to overcome the corruption in the world and in the flesh.

The part of me which is the sinner is the son of Adam, and cannot be improved. This one was judged, condemned, and executed, in Jesus Christ on the cross. Trying to improve the sinner is a waste of time as the requirements for better behavior inflame the flesh to sin. Law increases sin.

The me who is born from God my Father cannot be improved upon. I'm born sharing His nature in righteousness and holiness. What remains is to believe this is really true so that my life, being informed by my belief, shows this reality as I am being transformed into the image of the Holy One.

Otherwise the flesh will try to force me into it's form, schematidzo, I think it is, forced into the form of something that I'm not. That's what this world wants to do to us. We don't fight against that, we instead allow ourselves to be transformed, changed into our newness, which simply takes us away from that.

No one filled with the beauty of God has any interest or desire for sin.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

@marks,

What, in your opinion, is the nature of sanctification as a process?

 

[Netchaplain]

I do believe that the Lord calls upon us to mortify the deeds of the body...He does not do that for us...but we must do it in the power of the Holy Ghost. Romans 8:13 is clear:

Rom 8:13, For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Col 3:3 says to "Mortify your members ("body of sin"), and Ro 8:13 explains how it is done. I suppose it's how we understand this, but to me I do not see it as depending upon ourselves to oppose the old man, flesh or sinful nature (Gal 5:17), and therefore our part is seeking dependence on the Father as He continues to instill the desire and ability to please Him.

It's all in the fact that He keeps this maintained in us in a way we would not desire otherwise, and if we ever again seek to live and follow the old ways it manifests we have yet to be reborn. If we're reborn it will show by this ominous desire to please God, which is a "work" that will never cease in the saved.

 

[justbyfaith]

Nevertheless, to mortify the deeds of the body is something that we do, in the power of the Holy Spirit.

I think the scripture at hand (Romans 8:13) is clear on that.

Of course it is God who works within us both to will and to do according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

But it is something that takes active participation on our part, this mortification of the deeds of the body is not something that the Spirit does without our active involvement.

 

[Netchaplain]

Nevertheless, to mortify the deeds of the body is something that we do, in the power of the Holy Spirit.

I think the scripture at hand (Romans 8:13) is clear on that.

Of course it is God who works within us both to will and to do according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

But it is something that takes active participation on our part, this mortification of the deeds of the body is not something that the Spirit does without our active involvement.

I agree, and I always just have to keep in my mind that I do not conform but am always "being conformed" (Ro 8:29). This helps me to avoid attempting to be self-dependent--a problem I have about which I too often forget.

 

[justbyfaith]

It takes action on our part...but yes we mortify the deeds of the body in the power of the Holy Ghost. It is something that we must do. We do not take a passive role in it; but an active one.

 

[Netchaplain]

It takes action on our part...but yes we mortify the deeds of the body in the power of the Holy Ghost. It is something that we must do. We do not take a passive role in it; but an active one.

I agree, and I think I may be unnecessarily too specific on this issue.

 

[marks]

@marks,

What, in your opinion, is the nature of sanctification as a process?

Hi justbyfaith,

Putting on and putting off.

Being a new creature, we are to "put on" that person, "putting off" the old person.

We are to renew our minds, which is to change our way of thinking. In repentance, metanoia, we have a new mind, but we so often still think in the old mind, resulting in sin. Now we are to no longer identify ourselves with that person, and instead are to learn to identify ourselves with the new person, defined according to the Bible.

Being born of God we are righteous and holy. We always do righteousness, we always trust, we always love. That which is born of Adam is corrupt and rebellious, always in sin because he is never in faith.

Being born again, we are sanctified in our new creation.
Being resurrected, we will be sanctified in our redeemed bodies.
And in between, we are walking in the faith that the perfection given to our spirits will be given to our bodies, and knowing this, we become more like the person we will be.

Your thoughts?

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

That abiding in our new nature, we do not sin (1 John 3:6).

And that sanctification is not a process in which we become more holy, but a moment-by-moment decision of whether we are abiding in the new nature or walking according to the old man.

 

[marks]

That abiding in our new nature, we do not sin (1 John 3:6).

And that sanctification is not a process in which we become more holy, but a moment-by-moment decision of whether we are abiding in the new nature or walking according to the old man.

I'm not sure of your use of "abiding in the new nature", but I think we're on the same page here.

We are reborn in righteousness, and it's up to us to live that righteousness or not. We tend to forget I think.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

but I think we're on the same page here.

Yes, I think so. :)

 

[Netchaplain]

I'm not sure of your use of "abiding in the new nature", but I think we're on the same page here.

We are reborn in righteousness, and it's up to us to live that righteousness or not. We tend to forget I think.

Much love!

Hi Marks! I like what you and JBF are commenting (and your ever mentioning love). I think "abiding in our new nature" could be understood (IMO) that during the moments we are walking by the new nature we are not sinning, but the abiding here is temporary due to the original nature, which I believe is Paul's point in Rom 7, John's in 1Jo 3:9 and answers to Gal 5:25. This is an example that God gives us now to keep us encouraged by knowing it will eventually not be temporary but permanent.

Even in this life God does not consider the believer as a sinner, because He knows we never will to sin. A sinner isn't just one who sins but desires and wills it (the "dominion" is in willing it). This is why their is no scriptural references that identifies believers as sinners. In Paul's case (1Ti 1:15), he was being humble with the hyperbolic expression, "that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." The Greek he used for the word "am" for this declaration is 'eimi' and means "was" or "have been," denoting past tense.
(Genesis 1:1 (KJV))

Thanks to the Father for continually giving us a foretaste of what we have in Christ, which is manifested as we are unceasingly, not conforming, but "being conformed" (Rom 8:29) in our walk--"from glory to glory" (2Co 3:18).

Forgive me if I was too winded this time, and God be blessed!

 

[justbyfaith]

I do believe that we can abide in the for ever sense (1 John 2:17, Hebrews 10:14).