The Book of Revelation, Understood?

[marks]

When John says you have overcome them.... who do you believe them are?

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Them . . . every spirit who is the spirit of antichrist, the false teachers, those who deny Christ come in the flesh. Those who are of the world.

By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ is come in the flesh . . .

The Spirit of God . . . every spirit that confesses . . .

No one can say Jesus is Lord by by the Holy Spirit, and every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, by this you know the Spirit of God. You know God's Spirit by other people's spirits who are correct towards God. Who have the right mind, the mind of Christ.

Those who would try to overcome us through their false teachings. The spirit of error.

This is a pretty deep passage, we could look at it on another thread together if you want.

Much love!

 

[marks]

If his flesh were not corruptible he would not have been tempted. He would have had nothing to overcome. He did overcome the world.

I won't debate this issue with you. I know that I cannot convince anyone of anything unless God chooses to use me for that purpose. Of course the same thing holds true for you and each other person here. God alone gives any increase!

Concerning the "peccability of Christ", consider, it was actually impossible that Jesus would sin. The possibility did not exist. And therefore the corruptibility of His flesh was never at issue.

It was prophesied in so many places in Scripture that God would not allow His Holy One to see corruption, for instance, He will see the um . . .

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;

So many more, that Jesus' victory over temptations was assured from the beginning. It's all about His nature. While He set aside what He had before His incarnation, that didn't change for a moment Who He was.

Adam was of the earth and was earthy, but Jesus is the Lord from Heaven. From heaven, not from the earth, though as a man from the earth. But not from it Himself. Again, I'd better not derail this thread!

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Them . . . every spirit who is the spirit of antichrist, the false teachers, those who deny Christ come in the flesh. Those who are of the world.

By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ is come in the flesh . . .

The Spirit of God . . . every spirit that confesses . . .

No one can say Jesus is Lord by by the Holy Spirit, and every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, by this you know the Spirit of God. You know God's Spirit by other people's spirits who are correct towards God. Who have the right mind, the mind of Christ.

Those who would try to overcome us through their false teachings. The spirit of error.

This is a pretty deep passage, we could look at it on another thread together if you want.

Much love!

Absolutely another thread would be appropriate.
Thanks

 

[marks]

Odd you ask that, I was thinking on this earlier this morning, He seemed to prefer John over the others?

I believe God prefers you for certain of the work He wants done, just like He wanted John for the work he did. Interesting though that John called himself the one Jesus loved.

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

I believe God prefers you for certain of the work He wants done, just like He wanted John for the work he did. Interesting though that John called himself the one Jesus loved.

Much love!

This is indeed a mutual thought.

 

[amadeus]

Concerning the "peccability of Christ", consider, it was actually impossible that Jesus would sin. The possibility did not exist. And therefore the corruptibility of His flesh was never at issue.

It was prophesied in so many places in Scripture that God would not allow His Holy One to see corruption, for instance, He will see the um . . .

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;

So many more, that Jesus' victory over temptations was assured from the beginning. It's all about His nature. While He set aside what He had before His incarnation, that didn't change for a moment Who He was.

Adam was of the earth and was earthy, but Jesus is the Lord from Heaven. From heaven, not from the earth, though as a man from the earth. But not from it Himself. Again, I'd better not derail this thread!

Much love!

What I see are the foreknowledge of God, the plan of God, the free will of man and nature of God all involved here along probably with other things that did not occur to me at the moment. Unless we both understand each thing the same and/or we understand the other person's view as well as our own, how can we even have a real discussion?

May God richly bless you as you walk with and toward Him!

 

[marks]

The only way any man is going end up on the Lord's side is by submitting himself to God's will. It was never about you or me winning a prize in a contest between our skills and experiences. Rather, the winners will be those who surrender to Him and allow Him to lead the way all the way to the finish line. The choice is to surrender to God or not. If we do not, we will be among the goats. The surrendering is not a one time thing. It something that is to be done until God in us has overcome every obstacle standing between us and Him. If we don't surrender, it won't happen.

If we do the right works it will be because we allowed Him to lead us. God never loses battles. Men do, men who lead when they should be following.

To me, this demonstrates entirely the mindset of the Old Covenant. Every obstacle was overcome by Jesus on the cross. But I can't say more here, this is too good a thread, we could discuss elsewhere if you wish, ping me, if not, that's fine, and much love!

 

[amadeus]

To me, this demonstrates entirely the mindset of the Old Covenant. Every obstacle was overcome by Jesus on the cross. But I can't say more here, this is too good a thread, we could discuss elsewhere if you wish, ping me, if not, that's fine, and much love!

While I disagree further discussion at the moment won't be helpful for me. I cannot speak for you or others. See you around the forum!

 

[marks]

Believe it or not, they are to serve as 'patterns' for the various Churches that exist from John's day all the way up to our Lord Jesus' return.

Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
KJV

The seven candlesticks in Heaven that John saw represent the seven Churches. In Revelation 2 with Christ's Message to the Church at Ephesus, He warned them about removing their candlestick if they didn't repent.

That means the seven candlesticks represent seven patterns in the Heavenly. Each pattern will fit certain Churches today.

And like I said before, only TWO of those Churches our Lord Jesus had NO rebuke for.

Those two represent His elect that will not, and cannot, be deceived in the end. And they both had a certain understanding common to each other that the other five Churches did not have. Most likely the other five not having that understanding is what caused their problems that Jesus rebuked them for.

Hi Davy,

Have you ever looked at them in relation to the regional history of the church in general, and Christendom?

That the issues from one lead to the next, beginning with the waning love of a post-apostolic, that is, planted church, the missionaries come in, begin a church, the excitement is there, but later a certain repetitiveness sets in (Ephesus), though as the new church grows, it comes under attack, strengthening it (Smyrna), learns how to compromise, wrong marriage (Pergamos), compromise brings false teaching (Thyatira), some division is necessary so others can know who is approved (Sardis), newly revitalized and holding on (Philadelphia), while those not in love, but lukewarm, remain (Loadicea).

Just something to consider . . .

Much love!

 

[101G]

What you are highlighting are the quirks of our English translation scholars. If you had compared all of the Greek words that had been translated as either in or of you would have made the discovery that the same Greek word has been translated either way.

Attached is a PDF file which highlights this for your information. Ignoring "Kai" at the beginning of the 2-7 church referenced verses, you will see that the next ten words in the respective verses are the same except for the highlighted light green colum between the thickened lines which tells us the place names for the respective seven churches mention in this section of the Book of Revelation.

As @Willie T likes to point out, but using my own words, we can chase rabbits down rabbit holes and end up lost in the discussion or simply bamboozled by our over active minds.

Shalom

first thanks for the reply, second, that's my point if the word can be translated either way why two of them is translated diferently. it seem to me, it is trying to tell something. or maybe not.

Just like Paul said in Ephesians, this same church 1:1 "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus". why not say "unto the church in Ephesus". what I can understand if these saints that he was writting to was not originally from Ephesus, but maybe has come there. the letter was not address to all the (church?), if at the time was an organized chuch. as was with Rome, before they was organized . Romans 1:7 "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ". but the apostle qualified who he was speaking to ... at .... or ..... in ..... Rome. see what I'm getting at. they were living in Rome at the time of the letter. another example,
1 Corinthians 1:2 "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours". again the apostle qualify to whom he was speaking. was not this church "in" Corinth? or this Galatians 1:2 "And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia". here more than one church address using "of" in Galatia. see what I'm getting at? oh as said it could be nothing.

I have another thought on who is recieving these letters, but I'll hold it until I hear from you.

PICJAG.

 

[marks]

What I see are the foreknowledge of God, the plan of God, the free will of man and nature of God all involved here along probably with other things that did not occur to me at the moment. Unless we both understand each thing the same and/or we understand the other person's view as well as our own, how can we even have a real discussion?

May God richly bless you as you walk with and toward Him!

Personally, I think we have been having a real discussion, and I've been enjoying the opportunity. But yes, not all topics are fruitful at the moment, as the Spirit leads us.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

Personally, I think we have been having a real discussion, and I've been enjoying the opportunity. But yes, not all topics are fruitful at the moment, as the Spirit leads us.

Much love!

Actually I agree with you. Give God the glory!

 

[marks]

Cool and easy to read chart Willie. Do you see these 7 Church's as Church "ages"? I kind of do because of the Laodicean's being so luke warm...and that sure does seem to be prevalent in today's Church.

I liked your post because you copied @Willie T 's post and therefore put a link to the chart on this page!

 

[101G]

I believe God prefers you for certain of the work He wants done, just like He wanted John for the work he did. Interesting though that John called himself the one Jesus loved.

Much love!

correct, John 15:2 "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit".

PICJAG.

 

[marks]

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Short and sweet, but in the sweetness of death!

Smyrna, maybe from myrrh, the spice of death, and bitterness, and suffering. That's what grew there. Much of the commerce was around the myrrh industry.

Be faithful until death! Oh Joy!

But that's what Jesus is saying here, don't be afraid! He went there first, and is firstborn out of the dead. Of all the people who died, He was the first to come back.

But in their affliction and poverty, they are rich, chosen to be the rich in this world, rich in faith! Of course that's what affliction does to us, it pushes us into the arms of Jesus. This is why we can be so glad when we suffer, because we know what it's going to do for us, cause us to walk in the Life Jesus has given us.

Be faithful unto death, your victory crown is life! He who lives and believes in Me shall never die!

Much love!

 

[101G]

Revelation 2:8 "And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Smyrna = "myrrh". the definition states, Its taste is extremely bitter, but its smell, though strong, is not disagreeable; as a perfume. it appears to have been used to give a pleasant fragrance that is burned for the sweet smell it produces

This church I will call the “bitter Sweet” church. For it’s hard times/tribulation are rewarded. A sweet smell in the nostrils of God. or in our modern language today, the church that has the the right stuff.

Revelation 2:9 "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
God, the Lord Jesus is omniscient, he knows their deeds, their trials, and their richness in Love, and the riches that they have are in Christ Jesus, flat out, they are blessed.
Those who asserted themselves to be the true children of God, Jews, that are none regenerate, or is not “Born Again” boasting in the Law, and are dead men walking. As the apostle said, “enemies” of God, Romans 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.”
Romans 5:10 "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
This is a blessing, and here’s why. They was told to be faithful "unto" death, not "until" death. That is, not until the end of their "natural" life. (BINGO, what a blessing). yes, the church are going to go through some things, but there is no temptation so Great that God cannot delieve you from. the ten days is a prophetic reference to the "Ten Great Persecutions" to come. in which John and all the apostles, and disciple knew first hand about. for John himself was on the Job experiencing it.

Revelation 2:11 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Follow the Holy Spirit and what he teaches, you want be hurt by the second death.

according to Marks chart, this church has no complaints, or rebuks aganist it. but as said, has all the good stuff.

PICJAG.

 

[marks]

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
This is a blessing, and here’s why. They was told to be faithful "unto" death, not "until" death. That is, not until the end of their "natural" life. (BINGO, what a blessing). yes, the church are going to go through some things, but there is no temptation so Great that God cannot delieve you from. the ten days is a prophetic reference to the "Ten Great Persecutions" to come. in which John and all the apostles, and disciple knew first hand about. for John himself was on the Job experiencing it.

I'm thinking too that there was probably a 10 day campaigne against this particular church that would have been exceptionally harsh.

I like what you point out, "faithful unto death", though the word used is actually until death.

We walk by faith and not sight, so our faith is only needed until our death, when we will see Him.

But I like what you bring out, that our faithfulness is actually unto death, that is, we want to be faithful to live our lives as appointed by God, even though He appoint our death. Though He slay me I will trust Him.

Much love!

 

[marks]

according to Marks chart,

Just to be clear, I did not create the chart, merely found it online. Mine is much sloppier!

 

[101G]

I'm thinking too that there was probably a 10 day campaigne against this particular church that would have been exceptionally harsh.

Much love!

Correct, according to research, NOT MINE, under the Roman Emperors, beginning with Nero, A. D. 64, and ending with Diocletian in A. D. 310. Seven of these "Great Persecutions" occurred during this "Smyrna Period" of Church History. Or it may refer to the 10 years of the last and fiercest persecution under Diocletian. This Period extended from A. D. 170 to Constantine A. D. 312.

PICJAG

 

[101G]

Just to be clear, I did not create the chart, merely found it online. Mine is much sloppier!

I was just reffering to you, as your chart that you presented. not that you made it. but post you own chart, would like to seeit sloppy and all... (smile).

PICJAG.