Romans 7 and 8 without confusing verses

[DNB]

No, I don't think so. Unless I am mistaken, and I could be, you seem to be saying that it is possible to totally overcome sin in this life by some kind of self improvement.

My handle is DNB, and I have been affirming the exact opposite from my very 1st post, to my very last, and ongoing...
How in the world that you were able to construe what you stated, is beyond me?

 

[CharismaticLady]

To me this one verse alone about the second beast doesn't get nearly the attention it deserves, seeing that he calls down fire from heaven and somehow gives life to the "image of the beast" allowing it to speak. This character is obviously given a tremendous amount of supernatural power, beyond even the first beast. And when I see all these people acting like buffoons in churches speaking gibberish and calling that a "sign" from God, it makes me very suspicious. I just might make a thread about this second beast, and his "dragon" speech.

Thank you for the chapter and verse. Of course, it has nothing to do with the gift of tongues. And I don't think dragons laugh either.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Earth to CL, earth to CL, ...Houston, I think we have a problem!

Yep, that's me. Totally out of the flesh and into the Spirit.

 

[DNB]

Yep, that's me. Totally out of the flesh and into the Spirit.

Outer space doesn't qualify as 'not of this world'.

 

[amadeus]

CL Is a sinner, and she's worse than me, ..at least I admit it. Yes, I am so judging!

So why do you do it considering Matt 7:1-5? And then again...

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." II Cor 10:12

 

[Dcopymope]

Thank you.

:) Oh no problem, this certainly needs more attention. I believe that all these movies, comic books, video games, etc being pumped out about witchcraft, wizards and superhero characters are all predictive programming. Its all propaganda for the second beast in particular, the ultimate sorcerer. When the mark of the beast comes into the picture a few verses later, its no longer any wonder to me why it says that he causes all to receive it. It doesn't say he forced them to, not at first. I believe the economic coercion will come later. The world will in fact be salivating at the prospect of becoming like the first and second beasts, conquering death, healing the sick, controlling fire, understanding demonic, occult language, etc.

(Revelation 13:16-17) "And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: {17} And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

 

[DNB]

So why do you do it considering Matt 7:1-5? And then again...

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." II Cor 10:12

I was just be antagonistic a bit. ...I don't know exactly what you and her are professing?
We all understand that our sins are covered in Christ, in that case, we are sinless. But as far as being an example to others, as far as being edified, as far as being sanctified from this world is concerned, I would not confuse the two issues.
It serves no practical purpose to claim sinless perfection, unless you are talking to a proselyte who needs to understand the Atonement.
But, to the saved, we need to understand how detrimental that our actual behaviour can be, to both the converted and unconverted.
So, why does one come onto a Christian site, professing sinless perfection?

 

[Paul Christensen]

You are guilty by association then. Be careful how you chose your friends, for you will be judged accordingly. I've only known CL a fraction of what you have, and I can tell that her views are outrageous and unacceptable. Why can't you?
And again, when did you enter this thread? How in the world did you get the impression that i don't believe that I sin, especially when it is your friend who has been espousing that about herself, from the first post?
I've been asserting the opposite right from the start.
I'm not understanding you right now, Paul?

I know what her views are because I have spent hours in discussion and debate with her about them. I don't agree with her, and she doesn't agree with me - it is because I believe that Romans 7 speaks of Paul's current struggle with his flesh, while she believes that Paul is speaking of the time when he was a Pharisee. She believes that I need to have victory over sin because I compare my struggle with that of Paul.

I think that both are true - that we have victory over sin, and yet we don't. It is a "right now" and "not yet" situation. We have the title deed, and the written proclamation that the war against sin has been won, but there are still battles to fight as the flesh fights against the Spirit within us.

But I don't agree with the accusations levelled against her in this thread just because she sees our war with sin from the standpoint of total victory, and others here don't.

It is the same as Arminians calling Calvinists heretics and vice versa, when they are both right when the extremes are extracted from both sides.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Outer space doesn't qualify as 'not of this world'.

Oh, I'm not floating out there all on my own. I have many like-minded children of God with me.

 

[amadeus]

That is how it is with all examples in Scripture, yes. The charismatic crowd likes to look at chapter 13 and say "see tongues of angels" and say it is a heavenly prayer language. Or look at Romans with the Holy Spirit utterances that we cannot comprehend etc etc. But they take those out of context.

No, that is not how it happens. Again this is what you decided in accord as if you already had that "face to face" vision.

God has been my first love since 1976. I read my Bible and talk to Him daily working toward that "pray without ceasing" and that "rejoice in the Lord always". I pray in an unknown tongue daily and have done so for many years. You may doubt my testimony on this, but remember the word of Gamaliel who in spite of, [to our knowledge], never being a follower of Jesus, was given wisdom by God:

"And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." Acts 5:38-39

I could write a book [and have effectively done so] of all the good and often seemingly impossible [as men understand impossible] things God has done for me since I began surrendering to Him so many years ago. My journey has been what some would call a journey of miracles.

People whose tongues are a confused babble are in at least two categories: fakers and babies in the Spirit. As a natural human baby babbles early on so it is with those newly born in Him. Both kind of babies need to learn to speak clearly in their native human language on the one hand and in the Spiritual language God provided on the other.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Thank you for the chapter and verse. Of course, it has nothing to do with the gift of tongues. And I don't think dragons laugh either.

The only dragons I knew were one or two - an elementary school teacher, and a aircraftwoman I knew when I was in the airforce.

 

[Waiting on him]

holiness is attributed exclusively to God alone.

Well said

 

[amadeus]

I was just be antagonistic a bit. ...I don't know exactly what you and her are professing?
We all understand that our sins are covered in Christ, in that case, we are sinless. But as far as being an example to others, as far as being edified, as far as being sanctified from this world is concerned, I would not confuse the two issues.
It serves no practical purpose to claim sinless perfection, unless you are talking to a proselyte who needs to understand the Atonement.
But, to the saved, we need to understand how detrimental that our actual behaviour can be, to both the converted and unconverted.
So, why does one come onto a Christian site, professing sinless perfection?

What I am saying [I cannot definitely speak for @CharismaticLady ] is that the declaration by a believer that sinless perfection is impossible is a negative faith. According to our faith is how is works... really. If we say something is impossible for God, where is our faith in Him?

As to saying what we are or what we believe we are, is that not a part of our testimony and should it not be included in any honest discussion of what Truth is? You say it serves no practical purpose to claim sinless perfection. I would ask then... practical to whom or for whom? What does God want from us? If He wants us say it to other believers who don't understand it or accept it, should we not?

How many OT prophets declared the truth to people and were rejected. God clearly told both Jeremiah and Ezekiel that the people would not accept their prophecies, but they were to tell them anyway.

As His sheep should we set aside the Word we hear from Him in favor of what we have logically determined to be practical?
As to the 'saved', can they not also grow in the Lord? Is everyone who claims to be saved really saved?

 

[DNB]

I know what her views are because I have spent hours in discussion and debate with her about them. I don't agree with her, and she doesn't agree with me - it is because I believe that Romans 7 speaks of Paul's current struggle with his flesh, while she believes that Paul is speaking of the time when he was a Pharisee. She believes that I need to have victory over sin because I compare my struggle with that of Paul.

I think that both are true - that we have victory over sin, and yet we don't. It is a "right now" and "not yet" situation. We have the title deed, and the written proclamation that the war against sin has been won, but there are still battles to fight as the flesh fights against the Spirit within us.

But I don't agree with the accusations levelled against her in this thread just because she sees our war with sin from the standpoint of total victory, and others here don't.

It is the same as Arminians calling Calvinists heretics and vice versa, when they are both right when the extremes are extracted from both sides.

I agree with your understanding of the 'right now', and 'not yet', and that you disagree with CL's views. Yes, the former is one of those paradoxes like man's free-will, and God's sovereignty, as you described.
That's fine, we agree, ....again, I never said otherwise, 1000x. That surprised me about your replies to me.

As far as CL is concerned, I was reminded how she claims to have been at the crucifixion of Christ, and that all her prayers are answered, and that the Giggles for God movement is inspired by the Holy Spirit, etc...
Paul, this is not Biblical, nor sound, nor reverent, nor humorous, nor to be taken lightly. To the point, I wonder why that you are mitigating on her behalf, to the extent that you are?

What I am saying [I cannot definitely speak for @CharismaticLady ] is that the declaration by a believer that sinless perfection is impossible is a negative faith. According to our faith is how is works... really. If we say something is impossible for God, where is our faith in Him?

As to saying what we are or what we believe we are, is that not a part of our testimony and should it not be included in any honest discussion of what Truth is? You say it serves no practical purpose to claim sinless perfection. I would ask then... practical to whom or for whom? What does God want from us? If He wants us say it to other believers who don't understand it or accept it, should we not?

How many OT prophets declared the truth to people and were rejected. God clearly told both Jeremiah and Ezekiel that the people would not accept their prophecies, but they were to tell them anyway.

As His sheep should we set aside the Word we hear from Him in favor of what we have logically determined to be practical?
As to the 'saved', can they not also grow in the Lord? Is everyone who claims to be saved really saved?

My point is, those that are in the faith, universally understand redemption in Christ. We all know what redemption, salvation, atonement and emancipation means. No Christian needs to learn the elementary and mandatory principles of their faith. What we unequivocally need to learn, is that no one changes overnight, that is, there is no such thing as sinless perfection for those on earth. So, what is imperative for a Christian, is to always be on their guard against sin, because there is no magical notion that makes us immune to its seductions. For half the problem is just recognizing it, which requires wisdom.
So, I don't want to hear about this nonsense.
And Amadeus, you have an uncanny ability to digress from the point, or apply non-sequiturs. No one is limiting God here, we are talking about His will, and its practicality. And, I don't need to refrain from deciding what is practical in God's eyes, wisdom offers us this insight, so we act accordingly.
BTW, I read your other post, I don't believe that you speak to God every day, nor speak in tongues. Because you spoke about a miraculous gift as a learning stage, or as a child, it showed that you have absolutely no idea of the power of God, and how these things work. Half and partial power is only for Benny Hinn ministries. God's power is decisive, immediate, plenary and in full measure. Never inept and awkward, as you described it.

 

[CharismaticLady]

,

 

[CharismaticLady]

As far as CL is concerned, I was reminded how she claims to have been at the crucifixion of Christ

That is a lie. Show me where I said any such thing. Check out #182.

The rest is true.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I agree with your understanding of the 'right now', and 'not yet', and that you disagree with CL's views. Yes, the former is one of those paradoxes like man's free-will, and God's sovereignty, as you described.
That's fine, we agree, ....again, I never said otherwise, 1000x. That surprised me about your replies to me.

As far as CL is concerned, I was reminded how she claims to have been at the crucifixion of Christ, and that all her prayers are answered, and that the Giggles for God movement is inspired by the Holy Spirit, etc...
Paul, this is not Biblical, nor sound, nor reverent, nor humorous, nor to be taken lightly. To the point, I wonder why that you are mitigating on her behalf, to the extent that you are?
My point is, those that are in the faith, universally understand redemption in Christ. We all know what redemption, salvation, atonement and emancipation means. No Christian needs to learn the elementary and mandatory principles of their faith. What we unequivocally need to learn, is that no one changes overnight, that is, there is no such thing as sinless perfection for those on earth. So, what is imperative for a Christian, is to always be on their guard against sin, because there is no magical notion that makes us immune to its seductions. For half the problem is just recognizing it, which requires wisdom.
So, I don't want to hear about this nonsense.

I believe that it is right to defend her as a person and that she has the right to share her views without being accused of being a heretic.

And Amadeus, you have an uncanny ability to digress from the point, or apply non-sequiturs. No one is limiting God here, we are talking about His will, and its practicality. And, I don't need to refrain from deciding what is practical in God's eyes, wisdom offers us this insight, so we act accordingly.
BTW, I read your other post, I don't believe that you speak to God every day, nor speak in tongues. Because you spoke about a miraculous gift as a learning stage, or as a child, it showed that you have absolutely no idea of the power of God, and how these things work. Half and partial power is only for Benny Hinn ministries. God's power is decisive, immediate, plenary and in full measure. Never inept and awkward, as you described it.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Good night.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Good night.

Keep yourself isolated and safe!

 

[DNB]

That is a lie. Show me where I said any such thing. Check out #182.

The rest is true.

I may have been mistaken then. Someone did say that, which I saw for myself, and i was just reminded by someone else, that it was you.
My apologies if I was misinformed about that. I retract that statement if it was not true.