Romans 7 and 8 without confusing verses

[DNB]

I believe that it is right to defend her as a person and that she has the right to share her views without being accused of being a heretic.

Correction is a sign of love. Being harsh is one thing, but defending the truth is another.

 

[Cooper]

The experience in Acts 2 and possibly Cornelius' household (if the languages were understood, which is not stated), are one-off times and serve as signs that the Holy Spirit has now come and is present. I am not including those ones with what the Holy Spirit is saying through Paul, because those ones were not in the church context because there was no organised church at the time for instructions about the use of tongues to be given.

The Holy Spirit's instructions for tongues connected with the church is specified in 1 Corinthians 14, and if He says that "no man understands" a person speaking in tongues, then what is being spoken, according to the Holy Spirit in this case, it not humanly understood language. Here is where unprejudiced comprehension should take priority over man's Cessationist teaching.

If the Holy Spirit wanted us to know that the language spoken in tongues is exclusively humanly understood languages, then He would have be explicit about it. But He wasn't. He clearly said that "no man understands him" when the person is speaking in tongues, therefore it is true from the words of the Holy Spirit Himself that ordinary prayer in tongues ("to God) is not an understood language except by God Himself.

Because God is true and every man is a liar (by comparison), I believe the direct and clear words of the Holy Spirit, over and above any man's evaluation of it.

So you can quote the words of man any time, but I will always take the words of the Holy Spirit as true, and man's word as opinion and not fact.

Attempting to rewrite scripture so that Christ was crucified on Thursday and rose on Saturday, thereby deviating from the testimony of eye witnesses is not the work of the Holy Spirit.
.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Attempting to rewrite scripture so that Christ was crucified on Thursday and rose on Saturday, thereby deviating from the testimony of eye witnesses is not the work of the Holy Spirit.
.

Although it is generally accepted that Jesus was crucified on the Friday before the Sabbath, there are viable arguments for a Thursday, even a Wednesday crucifixion. So scholars are not in total agreement, and the Scripture does not give the actual date of the crucifixon.

We know that Passover week is in the Jewish month of Nisan, and we know that the Sabbath was the last day of the week and the resurrection of just before dawn on the first day of the next week. In Mark, it says that Joseph of Arimathea went to Pilate on the day of preparation, the day before the Sabbath to ask for the body of Jesus. So if we take Mark's word for it, then Friday would be the day.

So, because there is a lack of credible evidence for a day other than Friday, I have to concede that it would be more likely to have been Friday rather than another day.

But there are other references that tend to muddy the waters. The last supper wasn't the Passover because the eating of lamb was not mentioned, and again, it could have been, we don't really know. The fact they sang at hymn at the end of the supper in the same way that tradition is to sing a hymn once the Passover meal is eaten brings a link to the suggestion that the last supper might have been the Passover meal.

It is not clear whether the Passover meal is actually eaten on the Saturday, because Friday is described as the day of preparation - for the Passover or the Saturday Sabbath? We are not told.

There is a teaching that Jesus had to die at exactly 3pm on the day when the Passover lambs were killed, to link His death as the Lamb of God with those deaths. Seeing that Jesus is our Passover Lamb, makes sense of the link.

This also gives an insight into Jesus saying that one must eat His body to be a disciple of HIs. Does this give us a link between eating the Passover lamb, and the symbolic eating of His body, thereby identifying with His death as our Passover Lamb? (Just a thought).

I don't think that we can definitely say it was Friday, and then again we can't definitely say it wasn't. The accusation of rewriting Scripture is nonsense, because the Scripture doesn't say it was definitely Friday. We can only say that it is the best option given the clues we have in the Scriptural references.

 

[Truther]

That's what heaven on earth is - fellowship with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ (1 John 1:3). But, contrary to what some believe, tongues doesn't make us better Christians, because there are no good Christians, but vile people saved by the grace of God (D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones). It puts in a better place to effectively pray when we don't know how in our own language. Having all the right tools doesn't make a better mechanic, it just helps him be more successful at fixing motor vehicles.

The great thing about praying in tongues is our spirit prays and we cannot mentally understand what is said. This means we can pray in tongues as we contemplate how to repair our cars and our carnal automotive intellect does not cross wire our spirit intellect.
I can get “locked” in tongues as my thoughts waver and I am praying powerful and successful.
Have you also experienced that?

 

[Cooper]

Although it is generally accepted that Jesus was crucified on the Friday before the Sabbath, there are viable arguments for a Thursday, even a Wednesday crucifixion. So scholars are not in total agreement, and the Scripture does not give the actual date of the crucifixon.

We know that Passover week is in the Jewish month of Nisan, and we know that the Sabbath was the last day of the week and the resurrection of just before dawn on the first day of the next week. In Mark, it says that Joseph of Arimathea went to Pilate on the day of preparation, the day before the Sabbath to ask for the body of Jesus. So if we take Mark's word for it, then Friday would be the day.

So, because there is a lack of credible evidence for a day other than Friday, I have to concede that it would be more likely to have been Friday rather than another day.

But there are other references that tend to muddy the waters. The last supper wasn't the Passover because the eating of lamb was not mentioned, and again, it could have been, we don't really know. The fact they sang at hymn at the end of the supper in the same way that tradition is to sing a hymn once the Passover meal is eaten brings a link to the suggestion that the last supper might have been the Passover meal.

It is not clear whether the Passover meal is actually eaten on the Saturday, because Friday is described as the day of preparation - for the Passover or the Saturday Sabbath? We are not told.

There is a teaching that Jesus had to die at exactly 3pm on the day when the Passover lambs were killed, to link His death as the Lamb of God with those deaths. Seeing that Jesus is our Passover Lamb, makes sense of the link.

This also gives an insight into Jesus saying that one must eat His body to be a disciple of HIs. Does this give us a link between eating the Passover lamb, and the symbolic eating of His body, thereby identifying with His death as our Passover Lamb? (Just a thought).

I don't think that we can definitely say it was Friday, and then again we can't definitely say it wasn't. The accusation of rewriting Scripture is nonsense, because the Scripture doesn't say it was definitely Friday. We can only say that it is the best option given the clues we have in the Scriptural references.

Waffle.
.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Waffles.
.

I love them! They are very sweet, but great to eat!

 

[Paul Christensen]

Waffle.
.

The determination of the issue is dependent on the combination of factors which make up the probability of something which is actual, or not actual, as the case may be. But where a proposition is actual, then it is a straight-out case and there it is. But if it is not actual then we have an anomaly of great proportion because of the imbalance of terminological expression that gives rise to doubtful conclusions at the outset. But upon further investigation beyond the starting point, it will be seen by careful observation that no real conclusion either way is possible, or not possible, as the case may be.

Does this make sense?

 

[CharismaticLady]

@Paul Christensen, @DNB, @reformed1689, @Dcopymope, @Waiting on him, @amadeus, @Preacher4Truth, @Enoch111, @prism. Sorry if I missed someone on this thread. @Windmillcharge, @Candidus , @Joseph77, @Anthony D'Arienzo, @101G, @charity, @onlyme17

I know there are some (not all) who believe that their carnal nature is stronger than the power of the Holy Spirit, and do not believe that through walking in the Spirit they they can achieve sinlessness, let alone perfection. But at least make your election sure so you will never stumble/sin.

I have not edited out any of these verses of 2 Peter 1. Learn...

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Cooper]

@Paul Christensen, @DNB, @reformed1689, @Dcopymope, @Waiting on him, @amadeus, @Preacher4Truth, @Enoch111, @prism. Sorry if I missed someone on this thread. @Windmillcharge, @Candidus , @Joseph77, @Anthony D'Arienzo, @101G, @charity, @onlyme17

I know there are some (not all) who believe that their carnal nature is stronger than the power of the Holy Spirit, and do not believe that through walking in the Spirit they they can achieve sinlessness, let alone perfection. But at least make your election sure so you will never stumble/sin.

I have not edited out any of these verses of 2 Peter 1. Learn...

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Good post, so tell me what I should do in these circumstances. I have a neighbour who dumps his rubbish outside my front door. Last night I went round to complain, and he hit me on the chin and I fell to the ground. This has been going on for years, I think he has mental health problems. He is known for his violence. What do you think I should do, so far I have been ignoring it and last night was the first time I went to complain. The police know about him and ask if I want to bring charges, but I know it will still continue, he is 80 years of age. Perhaps I should continue with the self-control? What do you think. I have been turning the other cheek for years, but now it is getting to me. I wish he would stop. It is one thing to preach, but it is another thing to live the life. Thank you for your help.
.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Good post, so tell me what I should do in these circumstances. I have a neighbour who dumps his rubbish outside my front door. Last night I went round to complain, and he hit me on the chin and I fell to the ground. This has been going on for years, I think he has mental health problems. He is known for his violence. What do you think I should do, so far I have been ignoring it and last night was the first time I went to complain. The police know about him and ask if I want to bring charges, but I know it will still continue, he is 80 years of age. Perhaps I should continue with the self-control? What do you think. I have been turning the other cheek for years, but now it is getting to me. I wish he would stop. It is one thing to preach, but it is another thing to live the life. Thank you for your help.
.

Rejoice!!! Because it is getting to you, this is the time Got wants you to reach a new plateau of righteousness. God's not finished until we are perfect. Because of his mental health issues, this is a trespass against you, not really something he would do if he was normal. So, forgive him and go about your day, knowing that when you do, the Father will forgive you all the little things you do that you don't even know to be a trespass. Matthew 6:14-15. That way we can be sinless, even if not yet perfect.

God bless!

 

[Cooper]

Rejoice!!! Because it is getting to you, this is the time Got wants you to reach a new plateau of righteousness. God's not finished until we are perfect. Because of his mental health issues, this is a trespass against you, not really something he would do if he was normal. So, forgive him and go about your day, knowing that when you do, the Father will forgive you all the little things you do that you don't even know to be a trespass. Matthew 6:14-15. That way we can be sinless, even if not yet perfect.

God bless!

Good advice. Thank you. I feel better already.
.

 

[Episkopos]

I was just be antagonistic a bit. ...I don't know exactly what you and her are professing?
We all understand that our sins are covered in Christ, in that case, we are sinless. But as far as being an example to others, as far as being edified, as far as being sanctified from this world is concerned, I would not confuse the two issues.
It serves no practical purpose to claim sinless perfection, unless you are talking to a proselyte who needs to understand the Atonement.
But, to the saved, we need to understand how detrimental that our actual behaviour can be, to both the converted and unconverted.
So, why does one come onto a Christian site, professing sinless perfection?

Do you believe that perfection is in Christ? If so then ask God to cause you to enter INTO Him. In Him is NO sin. They who abide in Him do not sin.

We have not because we ask not. Or we ask amiss.

 

[Joseph77]

For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.

Who knows his heart ?

 

[Joseph77]

We have not because we ask not. Or we ask amiss.

Is it not written, and seen, that most people present, and most people everywhere, fall into that category described in Scripture, in context, "ask amiss" , because they want things outside of Christ ?

So the first, the only real need, is >>

Do you believe that perfection is in Christ? If so then ask God to cause you to enter INTO Him.

In Him is NO sin. They who abide in Him do not sin.

 

[amadeus]

My point is, those that are in the faith, universally understand redemption in Christ. We all know what redemption, salvation, atonement and emancipation means.

Perhaps you believe that you know always which ones are "in the faith" [whatever that really means] and that your own understanding of each of those things: redemption, salvation, atonement and emancipation... is unflawed. Myself, knowing that I know less than God consider myself to be as "every man" here:

"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written..." Rom 3:4

Anything wherein I am wrong and I speak about it others, as if it were true, is a lie. Then again when I am right, it is of God. God alone always knows right from wrong with regard to anybody!

No Christian needs to learn the elementary and mandatory principles of their faith. What we unequivocally need to learn, is that no one changes overnight, that is, there is no such thing as sinless perfection for those on earth. So, what is imperative for a Christian, is to always be on their guard against sin, because there is no magical notion that makes us immune to its seductions. For half the problem is just recognizing it, which requires wisdom.

Really?

Lu 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Lu 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Lu 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Lu 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

So, I don't want to hear about this nonsense.
And Amadeus, you have an uncanny ability to digress from the point, or apply non-sequiturs. No one is limiting God here, we are talking about His will, and its practicality. And, I don't need to refrain from deciding what is practical in God's eyes, wisdom offers us this insight, so we act accordingly.

We, all of us, limit God, each and every time we take hold of the reins to ourselves or allow some devil to take them instead of yielding them to the only One able to correctly direct our steps:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones." Prov 3:5-8

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

BTW, I read your other post, I don't believe that you speak to God every day, nor speak in tongues. Because you spoke about a miraculous gift as a learning stage, or as a child, it showed that you have absolutely no idea of the power of God, and how these things work. Half and partial power is only for Benny Hinn ministries. God's power is decisive, immediate, plenary and in full measure. Never inept and awkward, as you described it.

You don't have to believe my testimony, but your opinion ultimately does not matter, nor does mine... when either of us speaks from our carnality. Until the old man is completely and finally dead, that old man of us will continue to strive to regain the complete dominion he had in us before we met the Master. God never loses battles, therefore if we always trust in Him first and never take back the reins for ourselves into our own hands guided by our own carnal minds or some devil; then we will never slip, we will never stumble, we will never sin. Unfortunately, just about all of the church groups of my acquaintance regularly teach people to quench the Holy Spirit and as they do that they take hold of their own reins one more time and slip back toward that bottomless pit of sinful ways. No overcomers produced while they continue to do that! And only overcomers may eat of the tree of Life [Rev 2:7].

God's power is decisive and immediate when He is in control. He gave control to you and to me. That is what some men name, 'free will'. So long as we refuse to give the control back to Him, He is limited by His own Word. You or I might break our given word, but God will never do that. We have the control until there is "time no longer" or using Apostle Paul's expression, until we have finished our course.

 

[Nancy]

@Paul Christensen, @DNB, @reformed1689, @Dcopymope, @Waiting on him, @amadeus, @Preacher4Truth, @Enoch111, @prism. Sorry if I missed someone on this thread. @Windmillcharge, @Candidus , @Joseph77, @Anthony D'Arienzo, @101G, @charity, @onlyme17

I know there are some (not all) who believe that their carnal nature is stronger than the power of the Holy Spirit, and do not believe that through walking in the Spirit they they can achieve sinlessness, let alone perfection. But at least make your election sure so you will never stumble/sin.

I have not edited out any of these verses of 2 Peter 1. Learn...

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Hi CL,
I know this subject has come up many times and, I too fought it and still do somewhat. It seems that many of us might think we have sinned yet, not really? An example would be thoughts that flit through the mind. They will just flit in and out like say, arguing with someone who did something stupid or someone who screwed you over and will point the finger at you and folks who don't know you might (and many do) believe the lie without ever asking for the other side of the story. Are these arguments or thoughts that flit, actual sins? When this happens with myself, I will immediately put them out of my head so as not to feed on them. I understand forgiving them is a must and we can still do that yet, I would never trust said person again so...in your mind, have I sinned here? I'm being serious because, I really do not know!
In Him,
nancy

 

[amadeus]

Is it not written, and seen, that most people present, and most people everywhere, fall into that category described in Scripture, in context, "ask amiss" , because they want things outside of Christ ?

So the first, the only real need, is >>

What we need, Jesus tells us here:

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

When people think about these things too much without talking to and surrendering regularly to God, they will go all kinds of ways, which are mixed ways as we see around us in the multitude of denominations and churches all supposedly based on the same Bibles. Where is God? Seek His kingdom and seek His righteousness and truly He will add to you what is needed? People who believer in some measure too often mix up what they want with what they need according to God. When we have overcome the world as Jesus overcame the world, I believe that what we want will equal what God knows that we need. Who is already there?

 

[DNB]

Do you believe that perfection is in Christ? If so then ask God to cause you to enter INTO Him. In Him is NO sin. They who abide in Him do not sin.

We have not because we ask not. Or we ask amiss.

I have yet to see an entirely edified or sanctified Christian, ever. What you are speaking of, in practice, is so idealistic and theoretical, that it's nothing but hypothetical. It is meant solely for the afterlife, and those considering the Faith. It is not a reality that has taken place in this life time.
Both you and I, and everyone else on this forum, have never seen such perfection from anyone, ever. Which, if what you say is true in practice, would be the case. For, we even see such imperfection in the disciples, during the Apostolic age.
So, I'm sorry Episkopos, I do not see the reality, or even the potential or mandate, at all, in what you're professing. I believe that you're theory is correct, according to the Scriptures that you quoted. But the application is way too elusive, and solely reserved for the extremely humble, wise and faithful, to even be considered an expectation.

 

[Joseph77]

Who is already there?

I believe you have read and know Scripture.
You know what the messenger of God , the apostle Paul, says about being "already there".... (i.e. "not as if") , but I forget where... :)

 

[reformed1689]

The experience in Acts 2 and possibly Cornelius' household (if the languages were understood, which is not stated), are one-off times and serve as signs that the Holy Spirit has now come and is present. I am not including those ones with what the Holy Spirit is saying through Paul, because those ones were not in the church context because there was no organised church at the time for instructions about the use of tongues to be given.

The Holy Spirit's instructions for tongues connected with the church is specified in 1 Corinthians 14, and if He says that "no man understands" a person speaking in tongues, then what is being spoken, according to the Holy Spirit in this case, it not humanly understood language. Here is where unprejudiced comprehension should take priority over man's Cessationist teaching.

If the Holy Spirit wanted us to know that the language spoken in tongues is exclusively humanly understood languages, then He would have be explicit about it. But He wasn't. He clearly said that "no man understands him" when the person is speaking in tongues, therefore it is true from the words of the Holy Spirit Himself that ordinary prayer in tongues ("to God) is not an understood language except by God Himself.

Because God is true and every man is a liar (by comparison), I believe the direct and clear words of the Holy Spirit, over and above any man's evaluation of it.

So you can quote the words of man any time, but I will always take the words of the Holy Spirit as true, and man's word as opinion and not fact.

So the fact that you write off the time when tongues were actually on display tells me everything I need to know. That WAS the church. That was the beginning of the church. You are reading into the text things that are not there and it would do you well to study the original languages.