Miracles and certain spiritual gifts

[Waiting on him]

Hebrews 12:27-29 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. [28] Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: [29] For our God is a consuming fire.

Do not get how it becomes those things which remain, are those things to be removed?

See my new thread .

 

[Waiting on him]

See my new thread .

But you right, His peace He leaves with us

FEAR NOT FOR I HAVE OVERCAME THE WORLD.

 

[OzSpen]

It is my belief that God is not giving out the gift of miracles and spiritual gifts in these end times such as healing, tongues, etc.
I believe that since the early churches He has not given out the gift of miracles nor speaking with tongues.

It's really simple. The only reason God shew miracles unto His servants was to make them believe
in Him, so they could then put their trust and faith in Him....


It's that simple. God doesn't need miracles to prove to people that He is God, that the Bible is the truth.
He has other means to bring people to Him now.

If you see anyone doing "miracles" openly, I believe it is completely fake or done through demons.

BC,

Have you travelled to countries like Peru where you see manifestations of the demonic through use of spiritism. My missionary friends would have been up the theological creek if they accepted your theology.

Their ministry of evangelism was accompanied by the casting out of demons on many occasions. I suggest you quit imposing a cessationist interpretation (anti-gifts of the Spirit) on the Scriptures to avoid your convoluted conclusions.

Oz

 

[Enoch111]

I assert that you are deceived by a lying spirit and you are quite free to prove me wrong.

So now you resort to smearing others since you cannot stand by your false position? Actually, the burden of proof is strictly on you, since you have insisted that all the gifts are operational. Where are the apostles, where are the prophets, and why have the miracle workers failed to put an end to coronavirus?

Furthermore, all my posts are proof positive that I neither lie nor twist Scripture. Those with spiritual discernment will concur, and God is my witness.

So either come up with the evidence, or admit that your beliefs have no factual basis. Just wishful thinking.

 

[Paul Christensen]

So now you resort to smearing others since you cannot stand by your false position? Actually, the burden of proof is strictly on you, since you have insisted that all the gifts are operational. Where are the apostles, where are the prophets, and why have the miracle workers failed to put an end to coronavirus?

Furthermore, all my posts are proof positive that I neither lie nor twist Scripture. Those with spiritual discernment will concur, and God is my witness.

So either come up with the evidence, or admit that your beliefs have no factual basis. Just wishful thinking.

Last night I watched a 2 hour video by Justin Peters and enjoyed every bit of it, except when he denied that tongues is for today. I told the Lord that I didn't believe a word of it, but I also said to the Lord that the way that Sid Roth getting a guy to speak in tongues was just pure nonsense. I am not smearing you as a person. I am just opposing Cessationist nonsense which depends on half a verse in 1 Corinthians 13.

I fully acknowledge that the main stream Charismatc movement has been its worst enemy and has in too many areas shot itself in the foot through its misuse of the Spiritual gifts. In actual fact, Calvin, whom I agree with in any ways, says that the gift of tongues ceased because of widespread misuse.

But this doesn't make Cessationist doctrine true when there is no clear Scriptural support for it. What interests me, is that in other areas of doctrine where there is no Scriptural support, Reformed Bible teachers are very quick to say it is not of God, but where tongues and prophecy are clearly taught in 1 Corinthians 14, and there is absolutely no Scriptures that speak of it being temporary, they accept Cessationist doctrine. Isn't that a contradiction?

I don't have to prove that continuist doctrine is true, because the Bible clearly states that the gifts are for the body of Christ, and Paul clearly teaches the right use of tongues and prophecy. But I have searched the whole of the New Testament very carefully and I see no Scriptures that support Cessationism.

I was surprised when those two excellent Bible teachers, John MacArthur and Justin Peters, read a whole lot of stuff into 1 Corinthians to describe their theory about how the Corinthians used the gifts and were so out of control and demonic in their services, when Paul said nothing of the sort! Yet these two men teach clearly that the Bible is the sole authority for Christian doctrine. How come they read into the literal text of 1 Corinthians that Paul never said?

That puzzles me, and the only explanation that I can give is that because those men have seen so much misuse of the gifts, and the invasion of the occult and pagan mind-control into the mainstream Charismatic movement, that they have become convinced that God decreed that the gifts should cease at the end of the Apostolic Age and that is the reason for the widespread misuse of them in the current mainstream Charismatic churches. But in reality, the misuse is mainly seen in the Faith movement conferences by those who have been brain-washed with prosperity, guaranteed healing, controlling of weather, name it and claim it Hindu mind control, and kundalini manifestations.

But in reality, there are testimonies all over the world from Pentecostals and Charismatics not remotely associated with the Faith movement, of healing of all sorts of medical conditions, fulfilled prophecies, and tongues being understandable languages unlearned by the tongues-speaker - two of which are verified occurrences in the very church I attended for seven years during the 1970s.

So along with the total absence of any Scripture that shows the spiritual gifts ceasing because of a decree from God, and the multitude of testimonies of people being healed, receiving fulfilled prophecies, words of knowledge and hearing tongues in their own rural village dialects. One remarkable testimony is that of African bush people, never having seen a European before, attending a Kenyan Pentecostal church, getting saved, baptised with the Spirit, and then speaking in tongues - the praises of God in clear Oxford unaccented English, impossible for an African.

That is why I believe Cessationism is a lie, and they are deceived as to why the gifts ceased in the first place, and wrongly influenced by the widespread counterfeits and misuse of the gifts.

 

[Waiting on him]

Last night I watched a 2 hour video by Justin Peters and enjoyed every bit of it, except when he denied that tongues is for today. I told the Lord that I didn't believe a word of it, but I also said to the Lord that the way that Sid Roth getting a guy to speak in tongues was just pure nonsense. I am not smearing you as a person. I am just opposing Cessationist nonsense which depends on half a verse in 1 Corinthians 13.

I fully acknowledge that the main stream Charismatc movement has been its worst enemy and has in too many areas shot itself in the foot through its misuse of the Spiritual gifts. In actual fact, Calvin, whom I agree with in any ways, says that the gift of tongues ceased because of widespread misuse.

But this doesn't make Cessationist doctrine true when there is no clear Scriptural support for it. What interests me, is that in other areas of doctrine where there is no Scriptural support, Reformed Bible teachers are very quick to say it is not of God, but where tongues and prophecy are clearly taught in 1 Corinthians 14, and there is absolutely no Scriptures that speak of it being temporary, they accept Cessationist doctrine. Isn't that a contradiction?

I don't have to prove that continuist doctrine is true, because the Bible clearly states that the gifts are for the body of Christ, and Paul clearly teaches the right use of tongues and prophecy. But I have searched the whole of the New Testament very carefully and I see no Scriptures that support Cessationism.

I was surprised when those two excellent Bible teachers, John MacArthur and Justin Peters, read a whole lot of stuff into 1 Corinthians to describe their theory about how the Corinthians used the gifts and were so out of control and demonic in their services, when Paul said nothing of the sort! Yet these two men teach clearly that the Bible is the sole authority for Christian doctrine. How come they read into the literal text of 1 Corinthians that Paul never said?

That puzzles me, and the only explanation that I can give is that because those men have seen so much misuse of the gifts, and the invasion of the occult and pagan mind-control into the mainstream Charismatic movement, that they have become convinced that God decreed that the gifts should cease at the end of the Apostolic Age and that is the reason for the widespread misuse of them in the current mainstream Charismatic churches. But in reality, the misuse is mainly seen in the Faith movement conferences by those who have been brain-washed with prosperity, guaranteed healing, controlling of weather, name it and claim it Hindu mind control, and kundalini manifestations.

But in reality, there are testimonies all over the world from Pentecostals and Charismatics not remotely associated with the Faith movement, of healing of all sorts of medical conditions, fulfilled prophecies, and tongues being understandable languages unlearned by the tongues-speaker - two of which are verified occurrences in the very church I attended for seven years during the 1970s.

So along with the total absence of any Scripture that shows the spiritual gifts ceasing because of a decree from God, and the multitude of testimonies of people being healed, receiving fulfilled prophecies, words of knowledge and hearing tongues in their own rural village dialects. One remarkable testimony is that of African bush people, never having seen a European before, attending a Kenyan Pentecostal church, getting saved, baptised with the Spirit, and then speaking in tongues - the praises of God in clear Oxford unaccented English, impossible for an African.

That is why I believe Cessationism is a lie, and they are deceived as to why the gifts ceased in the first place, and wrongly influenced by the widespread counterfeits and misuse of the gifts.

Why do you believe it is only seen among one religious group. Why not lutherans, Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, etc,,,,,

 

[bbyrd009]

It is characteristic of demonic misuse of Scripture that it will quote a random verse or part-verse out of context, and it is the misquote half-verse in 1 Corinthians 13 that the lying demon has used to deceive godly people and Bible teachers, with the purpose of denying the full power and involvement of the Holy Spirit in the life of their churches.

well i'm sure that that is just how it was taught to us, most often? The way we repeat a v? I've heard many, many preachers "quote" "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," even though it ain't in There, yeh? And we surely all have demons, but i mean "saved" ppl arent allowed to admit that i guess right, that's part of the trap of claiming to be "saved" already imo

 

[bbyrd009]

When? Didn't Jesus say not to listen to people who say He has come already, and here He is, and there He is, and He is out in the desert? So I can safely ignore your post, on the instructions of Jesus.

well, "you will see Him come down the same way they saw Him go up," right?

 

[bbyrd009]

When Christ returns... never noticed before until today what Jesus told Peter when Satan wanted to sift Peter as wheat...one version says “when you are converted” another “when once you have turned again strengthen your brethren.”

Luke 22:32 Lexicon: but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

ha ok wow, pretty convincing imo
Return to Me and I will return to you

 

[bbyrd009]

Are you not implying that Jesus has already come back in person?

i would say implying that He likely never will? Christ is Spirit, right? And only Yah knows when one might see?

 

[bbyrd009]

I hear God's voice and He never contradicts scripture.

yikes

 

[bbyrd009]

Mat 12:31 I tell you that any sinful thing you do or say can be forgiven. Even if you speak against the Son of Man, you can be forgiven. But if you speak against the Holy Spirit, you can never be forgiven, either in this life or in the life to come.

ok well i can see how that might interpret to this,

There is only one unforgivable sin and that is calling the work of God the work of Satan.

but i can also see how the second part might be done innocently...and imo you can be forgiven for resisting when i Quote No son of man may die for another's sins or No one has ever gone up to heaven, basically. Someone might not realize that that "work of God" (arg) even is a work of Yah iow, and thus would not be guilty of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, at least imo

 

[Truther]

prolly not the best characterization of 1 Corinthians 13:8 Lexicon: Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. fwiw. Why would these "certain gifts" specifically be "done away" with, and not the others, iyo?
which you cannot Quote, yeh. For a really good reason, imo, which is why you are likely right, it is not debatable at all; you have just been deceived too, like the rest of us

All 9 gifts will be ended at the return of Christ.

Paul explained how some will be done away.

The Corinthian church understood.

Why don't you?

 

[Truther]

Yes and you would say probably that happened when all of the Bible was written. But I would say that for any of us it will not have happened until all of the Word of God required is written in our hearts.

"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:" Eph 4:13-15

Which Bible is... "that which is perfect is come"?

Shall we discard the Bible because it is written in our heart?

Did the 120 in the upper room etc, cease to speak with tongues when the word was written in their hearts?

 

[bbyrd009]

All 9 gifts will be ended at the return of Christ.

Paul explained how some will be done away.

The Corinthian church understood.

Why don't you?

ah, i'm just not near as amazing as you are i guess, my apologies, i'm not worthy :)
nonetheless, there are better characterizations for that verse imo, but who knows maybe not

 

[Truther]

ah, i'm just not near as amazing as you are i guess, my apologies, i'm not worthy :)
nonetheless, there are better characterizations for that verse imo, but who knows maybe not

I am not amazing, I just don't need all nine gifts explained as ceasing to get it, but half of them helps me get the picture Paul was getting at.

 

[bbyrd009]

I am not amazing, I just don't need all nine gifts explained as ceasing to get it, but half of them helps me get the picture Paul was getting at.

ok then, i get it, you get it completely, etc. I'm pretty sure i get like about <5% prolly, and i seem to know less as the years go by, instead of more! lol

 

[Timtofly]

Last night I watched a 2 hour video by Justin Peters and enjoyed every bit of it, except when he denied that tongues is for today. I told the Lord that I didn't believe a word of it, but I also said to the Lord that the way that Sid Roth getting a guy to speak in tongues was just pure nonsense. I am not smearing you as a person. I am just opposing Cessationist nonsense which depends on half a verse in 1 Corinthians 13.

I fully acknowledge that the main stream Charismatc movement has been its worst enemy and has in too many areas shot itself in the foot through its misuse of the Spiritual gifts. In actual fact, Calvin, whom I agree with in any ways, says that the gift of tongues ceased because of widespread misuse.

But this doesn't make Cessationist doctrine true when there is no clear Scriptural support for it. What interests me, is that in other areas of doctrine where there is no Scriptural support, Reformed Bible teachers are very quick to say it is not of God, but where tongues and prophecy are clearly taught in 1 Corinthians 14, and there is absolutely no Scriptures that speak of it being temporary, they accept Cessationist doctrine. Isn't that a contradiction?

I don't have to prove that continuist doctrine is true, because the Bible clearly states that the gifts are for the body of Christ, and Paul clearly teaches the right use of tongues and prophecy. But I have searched the whole of the New Testament very carefully and I see no Scriptures that support Cessationism.

I was surprised when those two excellent Bible teachers, John MacArthur and Justin Peters, read a whole lot of stuff into 1 Corinthians to describe their theory about how the Corinthians used the gifts and were so out of control and demonic in their services, when Paul said nothing of the sort! Yet these two men teach clearly that the Bible is the sole authority for Christian doctrine. How come they read into the literal text of 1 Corinthians that Paul never said?

That puzzles me, and the only explanation that I can give is that because those men have seen so much misuse of the gifts, and the invasion of the occult and pagan mind-control into the mainstream Charismatic movement, that they have become convinced that God decreed that the gifts should cease at the end of the Apostolic Age and that is the reason for the widespread misuse of them in the current mainstream Charismatic churches. But in reality, the misuse is mainly seen in the Faith movement conferences by those who have been brain-washed with prosperity, guaranteed healing, controlling of weather, name it and claim it Hindu mind control, and kundalini manifestations.

But in reality, there are testimonies all over the world from Pentecostals and Charismatics not remotely associated with the Faith movement, of healing of all sorts of medical conditions, fulfilled prophecies, and tongues being understandable languages unlearned by the tongues-speaker - two of which are verified occurrences in the very church I attended for seven years during the 1970s.

So along with the total absence of any Scripture that shows the spiritual gifts ceasing because of a decree from God, and the multitude of testimonies of people being healed, receiving fulfilled prophecies, words of knowledge and hearing tongues in their own rural village dialects. One remarkable testimony is that of African bush people, never having seen a European before, attending a Kenyan Pentecostal church, getting saved, baptised with the Spirit, and then speaking in tongues - the praises of God in clear Oxford unaccented English, impossible for an African.

That is why I believe Cessationism is a lie, and they are deceived as to why the gifts ceased in the first place, and wrongly influenced by the widespread counterfeits and misuse of the gifts.

When God's Word was complete, those gifts did cease that is not the issue. The church did not use God's Word, especially after adding so much extra to it. Thus those gifts had to creep back in.

I am not saying that your movement totally left the Word behind, but if you yourself deny the doctrine of the verse, your mind is set on the gifts only, because the Word is not complete in your mind. The Word of God does dispell the darkness even in deepest pagan lands. Gifts do dispell as well. If the Word is not made complete and one relies on gifts, then gifts are as far as we get. Which is a shame, because the Word gives way more benefit and complete transformation. The old adage: give a gift and you keep having to give gifts. Teach one how to give gifts, and they will always have gifts to give. Once all have the Word, gifts no longer are needed.

 

[bbyrd009]

Do not get how it becomes those things which remain, are those things to be removed?

?
the things that are shaken are removed, and the things that remain cannot be shaken?
may have been cleared up already though :)

 

[Waiting on him]

ok then, i get it, you get it completely, etc. I'm pretty sure i get like about <5% prolly, and i seem to know less as the years go by, instead of more! lol

And just when you thought you had knowledge of something.