entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

[Candidus]

Atonement - to appease, to make amends, to "cover up" to Provide reconciliation, To expiate or purge,

To: Appease is heathen atonement, throwing the virgin into the Volcano to appease God.

 

[bbyrd009]

I desire mercy, not sacrifice

 

[FollowHim]

lol

I read this, and I have to just shake my head

I am just trying to show you what John said

He said, If a person is living in sin, They have NEVER KNOWN GOD. period.. He did not say they knew God at one time and no for some reason do not know him. He said THEY NEVER KNEW GOD.

I never said WE can never know God. And why you would insinuate that I said that is beyond my comprehension.

I said what John said, A person who is living in sin has never known God Period

What about us who KNOW GOD (BECAUSE WE HAVE BEN ADOPTED INTO HIS FAMILY)?

John speaks of us to.

WE CAN NOT LIVE IN SIN, BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN BORN OF GOD

its not rocket science. Just take John at his word. and do not try to read into it something which is not there. And you will do fine.

"WE CAN NOT LIVE IN SIN, BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN BORN OF GOD"
This is not actually a very clear statement, because I can see too many conflicting interpretations.

No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
1 John 3:6

John is being very precise. Obvious sin, that which is blatant, like adultery, sexual immorality, theft, blasphemy, hatred, participating in the slave trade etc. It is about authority and who is teaching and who you can ignore because their foundation is rotten.

Now breaking mans laws, thoughts that are disturbing, causing offence by mistake etc. show sensitivity to doing the right thing but are not sinful of themselves, but need working through.

Now some hide their true theology, because we cannot live in sin, could mean all sin is forgiven, so even if we sin, it is forgiven, so we are not living in it, though in Johns sense we actually are. So one has the meaning of the words in a simple way or in a view of God as He looks at us through Jesus's blood.

Of course it is possible to add layers of meaning to anything and create a solution that keeps the words the same but changes totally their meaning. It is why sometimes these discussions are not discussions at all, but partial statements of someones belief system without declaring what it actually is. God bless you.

 

[Candidus]

I desire mercy, not sacrifice

Most here believe that God is not merciful, but demands a retribution payment.

Goes God have mercy? Does He withhold what we deserve?

Or,

Does He demand His pound of flesh and only accepts payment? If it's "paid" then there is nothing left to forgive.

It cannot be both.

 

[Candidus]

"WE CAN NOT LIVE IN SIN, BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN BORN OF GOD"
This is not actually a very clear statement, because I can see too many conflicting interpretations.

It's favorite verse for Gnostics and Christians that apply Gnostic assumptions.

The gist is, "Where do we not sin? In the Spirit! The Spirit inside of the believer cannot sin! We are white as snow in Jesus"

 

[FollowHim]

I remember coming at some verses and seeing a meaning that cut me to the heart.
Over time I saw the context and how within the whole revelation of scripture they fitted in.
And that is a problem, and a blessing. We need the whole revelation of scripture to see things correctly.

Paul I find interesting. The apostles agreed we should avoid food sacrificed to idols, yet Paul says as the idol is stone, it does not matter, if your faith can cope with this understanding. If not, then it is sin to eat such a thing, because you believe you are sinning and their condemn yourself.

So putting this into effect, when believers say they are sinning by speeding on the road, they are. If they feel God demands them to obey the speed limit, they are bringing dishonour to the Lord in their own consciences. Some will say, but we sin all the time, and one sin is the same as murder, so we are guilty and can never walk clean, so ignore it all. But this is like saying upsetting people can happen, so being rude to everyone does not matter or living a totally selfish life, because you are in Christ so safe, so its all just a game.

I would respond simply, if love was alive in ones heart, you by yourself would be hurt and broken by selfish actions. And this is not because you know Jesus, but because love has made its home in you. But being hard hearted and not caring, and it all just being rules of justification, demonstrate love has not yet broken in, and a heart is not free, truly forgiven, holy and purified, rejoicing in the beauty of life and being in the presence of the King.

To some just talking about following love is the law, is a burden, is impossible. And truly for them this is true, because Jesus has not touched them, has not healed them and stands where loneliness resides, and embraces them as a brother or sister. When you know the cross like this, it changes you, things are never the same again. Of what defence is required, of what thing one needs, for in Jesus we have everything, from the moment we wake up to the time we go to sleep, He is our all in all. Praise the Lord. Amen

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Typical evasion of your argument that the Atonement pays for sins.

Atonement has never been in debate, only Payment has.

Atonement MEANS payment

According to the law. The ONLY payment for sin was the atoning sacrifice

Argue it all you want, it does not negate that this is fact. the 2 verses I just shared proves that fact.

They are to make atonement for sin.. That is how redemption was made according to the law and was a picture of what CHrist would do as the lamb of God who would take the sin of the world and atone for their sins.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

To: Appease is heathen atonement, throwing the virgin into the Volcano to appease God.

And?

Thats what the word means

The passages I posted said these sacrifices were to make ATONEMENT for sin.

Make it whatever you want, These sins were to cover sin, That is the symbol of the blood being splattered on the mercy seat of the ark, to COVER the things God had against the jews (the commands which were broken, Arron's rod that budded, and the manna) so when the cherub looked, They saw the blood of the atoning sacrifice Not the things which proved the offenders (jews) guilty.

Its all in redemption.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I desire mercy, not sacrifice

We have mercy, Because of sacrifice

Justice can not just be set aside, Payment must be made.

If Gods love could satisfy his justice without payment, Jesus would have stayed in heaven.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Most here believe that God is not merciful, but demands a retribution payment.

Goes God have mercy? Does He withhold what we deserve?

Or,

Does He demand His pound of flesh and only accepts payment? If it's "paid" then there is nothing left to forgive.

It cannot be both.

Justice has a price..

The penalty of sin is death (spiritual)

Ths only DEATH can atone for sin.

If anyone think God is going to show them mercy because they play religion. They will be in serious trouble on judgment day

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's favorite verse for Gnostics and Christians that apply Gnostic assumptions.

The gist is, "Where do we not sin? In the Spirit! The Spirit inside of the believer cannot sin! We are white as snow in Jesus"

This Gnostic excuse is meaningless

John said a child born of God can not live in sin, BECAUSE he has been born of God (he gives the reason, He has been born empowered by God)

People who deny the power of being born of God, then blast people who not only understand it, But have experienced it, and seen it, as gnostics well,, thats just wrong

 

[marks]

I remember coming at some verses and seeing a meaning that cut me to the heart.
Over time I saw the context and how within the whole revelation of scripture they fitted in.
And that is a problem, and a blessing. We need the whole revelation of scripture to see things correctly.

Paul I find interesting. The apostles agreed we should avoid food sacrificed to idols, yet Paul says as the idol is stone, it does not matter, if your faith can cope with this understanding. If not, then it is sin to eat such a thing, because you believe you are sinning and their condemn yourself.

So putting this into effect, when believers say they are sinning by speeding on the road, they are. If they feel God demands them to obey the speed limit, they are bringing dishonour to the Lord in their own consciences. Some will say, but we sin all the time, and one sin is the same as murder, so we are guilty and can never walk clean, so ignore it all. But this is like saying upsetting people can happen, so being rude to everyone does not matter or living a totally selfish life, because you are in Christ so safe, so its all just a game.

I would respond simply, if love was alive in ones heart, you by yourself would be hurt and broken by selfish actions. And this is not because you know Jesus, but because love has made its home in you. But being hard hearted and not caring, and it all just being rules of justification, demonstrate love has not yet broken in, and a heart is not free, truly forgiven, holy and purified, rejoicing in the beauty of life and being in the presence of the King.

To some just talking about following love is the law, is a burden, is impossible. And truly for them this is true, because Jesus has not touched them, has not healed them and stands where loneliness resides, and embraces them as a brother or sister. When you know the cross like this, it changes you, things are never the same again. Of what defence is required, of what thing one needs, for in Jesus we have everything, from the moment we wake up to the time we go to sleep, He is our all in all. Praise the Lord. Amen

Hi FollowHim,

Good post!

The Law of Love, compared to the Law of Conscience, compared to the Law of Moses and the Prophets.

I think it's like, God made us to be children for Him to love, and to be servants who will carry His love to others. And that everything outside of His intent for my life - as an individual - is sin. Misses the target.

The Law of Conscience depends on the wholeness of our minds, and transparency of our hearts. I'm not convinced.

The Law of Moses and the Prophets legislated externally, but didn't provide for the needs of the spirit in making us a new creation. So that only regulates the old man. It does nothing toward the new man.

I would respond simply, if love was alive in ones heart, you by yourself would be hurt and broken by selfish actions.

This is so true!!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Most here believe that God is not merciful, but demands a retribution payment.

Goes God have mercy? Does He withhold what we deserve?

Or,

Does He demand His pound of flesh and only accepts payment? If it's "paid" then there is nothing left to forgive.

It cannot be both.

Interesting question!

This is how I see it.

The soul that sins shall die. No if ands or buts. It's what happens.

All have sinned, so all die. And after death comes judgment.

However, In Christ, God has provided a means by which we die, but death does not destroy us, and provides righteousness in the day of judgment.

Jesus, Who died but did not sin, has been provided to us, the Lamb of God, that we can be joined to Him in death, burial, and resurrection.

So then those who do not believe will end their natural life inherited from Adam as they end their terrestrial existance, departing this world.

Those who do believe, and in receiving Jesus Christ are born from above, end their natural life inherited from Adam as they begin an eternal life received from God, while still in this world. And this life does not end, does not die.

And so the mercy is found in Jesus Christ's death, that we can die, and yet live.

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

We have mercy, Because of sacrifice

Justice can not just be set aside, Payment must be made.

If Gods love could satisfy his justice without payment, Jesus would have stayed in heaven.

go with that then bam, Esau, with my blessing. No son of man may die for another's sins is not going anywhere though. And your bargain with death will be annulled...and you will be trampled prolly applies, shortly thereafter

i mean maybe just look at that characterization of Yah, as a capricious God that requires human sacrifice to overlook sins (complete anathema to Who told you that you were naked? right), and wasn't really serious when He Breathed I desire mercy, not sacrifice.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

go with that then bam, Esau, with my blessing. No son of man may die for another's sins is not going anywhere though. And your bargain with death will be annulled...and you will be trampled

i mean maybe just look at that characterization of Yah, as a capricious God that requires human sacrifice to overlook sins (complete anathema to Who told you that you were naked? right), and wasn't really serious when He Breathed I desire mercy, not sacrifice.

sorry friend, I do not understand what you said here

 

[FollowHim]

Atonement MEANS payment

According to the law. The ONLY payment for sin was the atoning sacrifice

Argue it all you want, it does not negate that this is fact. the 2 verses I just shared proves that fact.

They are to make atonement for sin.. That is how redemption was made according to the law and was a picture of what CHrist would do as the lamb of God who would take the sin of the world and atone for their sins.

Atonement is putting things right, re-establishing that which has been broken.
29 "This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny yourselves and not do any work-whether native-born or an alien living among you-
30 because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the LORD, you will be clean from all your sins.
Lev 16:29-30

11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.
Lev 17:11

4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God.
5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD.
Lev 18:4-5

Atonement is about cleansing and forgiveness of sins, to that as a Holy people one can obey Gods laws and decrees.
They act both together, because without cleansing, how could one obey and if one is cleansed but continues to sin, what is the point of cleansing as it is trampled on straight away.

'Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy.'
Lev 19:2

Peter says the same
15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
1 Peter 1:15-16

The principles of cleansing and holiness have not changed from the old to the new covenant.

 

[bbyrd009]

We have mercy, Because of sacrifice

Justice can not just be set aside, Payment must be made.

If Gods love could satisfy his justice without payment, Jesus would have stayed in heaven.

so maybe more like "if our lust for blood and vengeance could satisfy our sense of justice without payment..." right, i mean we are basically reiterating why the law was given in the first place now right

 

[bbyrd009]

Atonement is putting things right, re-establishing that which has been broken.

the natural assumption being that it is Yah Who stood separate, and needs something in order to be reunited, rather than us who separated, Who told you that you were naked? and hid at the sound of Yah. So iow Yah does not need to be appeased; our sense of justice and right does, hence why we hid in the first place right

 

[bbyrd009]

sorry friend, I do not understand what you said here

ive come to recognize that as a good sign, fwiw. the italics are Scripture, and i might be able to help with a more specific q tho. Or an interpreter might come through i guess. But imo eating the hidden manna like that is really the most important part!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Atonement is putting things right, re-establishing that which has been broken.
29 "This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny yourselves and not do any work-whether native-born or an alien living among you-
30 because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the LORD, you will be clean from all your sins.
Lev 16:29-30

11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.
Lev 17:11

4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God.
5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD.
Lev 18:4-5

Atonement is about cleansing and forgiveness of sins, to that as a Holy people one can obey Gods laws and decrees.
They act both together, because without cleansing, how could one obey and if one is cleansed but continues to sin, what is the point of cleansing as it is trampled on straight away.

'Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy.'
Lev 19:2

Peter says the same
15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
1 Peter 1:15-16

The principles of cleansing and holiness have not changed from the old to the new covenant.

I shared the definition of atonement, as taken from Hebrew dictionaries and lexicons.

It says these sacrifices are required for atonement. It days nothing about all the works you want to add. The reason we need to have sacrifice is we FAIL to keep the commands you say we need to keep.

As hebrews said, without the shedding of blood, THERE IS NO FORGIVENESS.