entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

[Eternally Grateful]

I wish I was promoting a legalistic works based atonement, because then my conclusions would be wrong.
My best analogy is rock climbing. Being given ropes, helmet, harness, nuts, supports etc. and then saying climbing is not necessary, you have arrived already, changes the story. Gods story is we have to climb by His rules, His way, the straight path, but He will make it possible. He will clean us up at the beginning and guide us along if we stay connected to Him to arrive where we need to go.

You appear to be saying we are transported to the top, with no equipment or need or change required, no lessons to learn, nothing to do, it is all just a gift.

Now it is fine that if this is your position, then I can continue to describe what I am saying God says, when He clearly says, obey and be blessed, disobey and be condemned. Now for as long as I live, I will read and declare His word and His revelation.

For me as I grow and minister to others, it all becomes more clear, and the more I walk the simpler it actually is.
I can almost just quote verses to make the points, without commentary. And to me that is so odd, because I am so used to getting it wrong, or thinking one thing, and finding the Lord takes a different view. But then the Lord desires we follow and learn, for which I praise His name, that He would call me His friend and His follower, and is willing to listen to my call, thank you Jesus

See thats the problem

Take your example. rock climbing, You were given all the tools right? But you have to WORK YOURSELF to get to the top. You here are basing your getting to the top on your works. (and you tell me you are not promoting works??)

Salvation is this way

Your dead. You can't climb anything! First you must be SAVED (made alive) THEN you are given the tools to do works. But before you do the works, YOUR ALREADY SAVED

 

[marks]

I have to confess, I gave up trying to work through all the positions individuals have, because they can always point out flaws, because each one has a slightly different emphasis or take.

Yes, it can take a lot of work sometimes.

Worse if this emphasis means the words, you do not understand anything I believe or liar, or slander or any number of things which imply ill will are used.

With little or no reward . . .

In that case I find it better to withdraw and realise the thorns and thistles are too quick to come out, and a more distant approach stating scripture seems more appropriate.

In the hope that will be heard . . .

But then truth seekers know both sides of this coin, as we can deceive ourselves and actually be wrong.

Having the extra time to pursue it is helpful, and this is one reason I like to understand exactly what a person thinks regarding the Gospel. I want to understand the various points of view, and many times, have gained in understanding for myself through doing so.

Even if I disagree with someone on one thing doesn't automatically mean I can't gain from their understanding of something else.

so everything is a learning process.

Just so. And I wish to apply myself to learning.

Much love!

 

[FollowHim]

See thats the problem

Take your example. rock climbing, You were given all the tools right? But you have to WORK YOURSELF to get to the top. You here are basing your getting to the top on your works. (and you tell me you are not promoting works??)

Salvation is this way

Your dead. You can't climb anything! First you must be SAVED (made alive) THEN you are given the tools to do works. But before you do the works, YOUR ALREADY SAVED

I find your analogy interesting. You obviously have never rock climbed.
Salvation is the trust in the instructor, upon whom ones life depends. As long as you listen you are safe.

You are implying getting to the top is irrelevant, or listening to the instructor or learning the skills required to get there.
Now that would be a very strange rock climb and if you started you would probably die.

The simple difference is dependency on survival by obedience.
I have tried to show as a born again believer our hearts desire to listen and follow, so we will climb as we should.
Something in you says I must be deceived and unsaved, a legalist to suggest Jesus intent is us to walk with real risk, you have a walk of a jolly party with no down side. This is not in scripture, rather the opposite, full of testing, questions, endurance, patience, pain and cost.

We are to follow Jesus's example, and His example led to the cross at the hands of sinners. That is truly costly.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I find you analogy interesting. You obviously have never rocked climbed.
Salvation is the trust in the instructor, upon whom ones life depends. As long as you listen you are safe.

You are implying getting to the top is irrelevant, or listening to the instructor or learning the skills required to get there.
Now that would be a very strange rock climb and if you started you would probably die.

The simple difference is dependency on survival by obedience.
I have tried to show as a born again believer are hearts desire to listen and follow, so we will climb as we should.
Something in you says I must be deceived and unsaved, a legalist to suggest Jesus intent is us to walk with real risk, you have a walk of a jolly party with no down side. This is not in scripture, rather the opposite, full of testing, questions, endurance, patience, pain and cost.

We are to follow Jesus's example, and His example led to the cross at the hands of sinners. That is truly costly.

how do you get this from scripture?

I need saved because I am dead.

a dead person can't do any works,

You cannot work UNTIL you are first saved

That is what worries me about you..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I wish I was promoting a legalistic works based atonement, because then my conclusions would be wrong.
My best analogy is rock climbing. Being given ropes, helmet, harness, nuts, supports etc. and then saying climbing is not necessary, you have arrived already, changes the story. Gods story is we have to climb by His rules, His way, the straight path, but He will make it possible. He will clean us up at the beginning and guide us along if we stay connected to Him to arrive where we need to go.

This really bothers me

it suggests only those who are strong enough to make it to the top of the hill or mountain will be saved.

While the weak, who can not make it, have no hope, Because they will fail to make it to the top, hence fail to be saved.

 

[FollowHim]

This really bothers me

it suggests only those who are strong enough to make it to the top of the hill or mountain will be saved.

While the weak, who can not make it, have no hope, Because they will fail to make it to the top, hence fail to be saved.

This is what the apostles grappled with. All the letters to the churches in revelation is a warning of not assuming anything. Much of the new testament letters warn of dangers, false teachers, people ship wrecking their faith. Paul wants confirmation he is on the right track. Jesus talks of fruit that lasts. Resisting sin unto death. Standing strong, being tested, proving ones faith, lasting to the end, holding the faith.
Analogies with those chosen but rejected for unbelief, those who knew it all but walked away. Yes the risks are real, but we will not be tested more than we can endure.
So yes, there is real risk to prove who we are.

 

[marks]

To me it comes down to this.

Are we working towards salvation? Or are we working out salvation?

Is our eternal salvation something we work towards, hoping to attain? Or is our eternal salvation given to us now, and from that we go on to do works?

IF we are working towards salvation, and salvation may be won or lost from our works, then our works are what determines our salvation, and justfication is meaningless.

If we are working out our salvation, then God is working in us, having justified us, and salvation is from faith and not works.

Much love!

 

[marks]

This is what the apostles grappled with. All the letters to the churches in revelation is a warning of not assuming anything. Much of the new testament letters warn of dangers, false teachers, people ship wrecking their faith. Paul wants confirmation he is on the right track. Jesus talks of fruit that lasts. Resisting sin unto death. Standing strong, being tested, proving ones faith, lasting to the end, holding the faith.
Analogies with those chosen but rejected for unbelief, those who knew it all but walked away. Yes the risks are real, but we will not be tested more than we can endure.
So yes, there is real risk to prove who we are.

But none of these allusions show a rebirth that can be undone, or might be undone.

We can look at them one by one if you like.

Much love!

 

[marks]

a legalist to suggest Jesus intent is us to walk with real risk, you have a walk of a jolly party with no down side.

This is a case of false alternatives. It's like standing in 31 Flavors saying to yourself, it can be either Black Cherry or Spumoni, no other flavors available. No down side? I think there is a down side to wasting one's life in profligate living. But that downside is not that you become unborn from God.

Either the burden for our salvation lies on us, or lies on Jesus, but not on both, so take your pick.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is what the apostles grappled with. All the letters to the churches in revelation is a warning of not assuming anything. Much of the new testament letters warn of dangers, false teachers, people ship wrecking their faith. Paul wants confirmation he is on the right track. Jesus talks of fruit that lasts. Resisting sin unto death. Standing strong, being tested, proving ones faith, lasting to the end, holding the faith.
Analogies with those chosen but rejected for unbelief, those who knew it all but walked away. Yes the risks are real, but we will not be tested more than we can endure.
So yes, there is real risk to prove who we are.

Yeah they did, because it’s a false teaching

God does not save the strong he rescues the weak.

as Jesus said, he came for the poor and the sick, people who could never make it up that hill your trying to climb

 

[FollowHim]

Yeah they did, because it’s a false teaching

God does not save the strong he rescues the weak.

as Jesus said, he came for the poor and the sick, people who could never make it up that hill your trying to climb

This is an interesting theory. Jesus came to save those who would listen to Him, who would respond, who He could empower to be overcomers.
This is so important, cowards are described as those who lose out.

The parable of the banquet is the invited guests did not want to come so the Lord sent out his servants to collect anyone they might find.
The word worthy of our calling comes to mind, not those who fail the calling and cannot be bothered.

Take the heroes of the faith.
Abraham who was tested about Isaac, who by offering him showed he feared God and was prepared to do anything.
Elijah who stood against 400 priests of Baal and trusted God would respond.
David who conquered the philistines and was the greatest king of Israel.
John the Baptist who shone a light, straightening the path ready for the beginning of the Kingdom come to earth.

These people were not strong in themselves by strong in God, while knowing their own flaws.
The point God makes is it is not how we start that matters but that we trust and know who He is and that he can provide for us.

The path Jesus is leading us on, is His path, and as such is not impossible, it is the path to life, and is where eternity lies.
Your testimony is unfortunately that this path is impossible, which must be the measure of what you think faith is.

My measure of faith is to know Jesus calls us to walk like Him, which is insane, unless, His love, His life, His reality changes us.
Now when I am in a house group with fellow believers, sharing the great words of the Lord, the insane thing is Jesus is there also.
And in this time we have victory in Him, as His Holy people, rejoicing and knowing and learning the walk.

What makes me laugh, is you cannot tell someone who knows the strength of the King, there is no strength, there is no victory, there in overcoming, because it only speaks to those of no faith and no experience of its reality. I sincerely wish you well, but the thing about testimonies and Gods word, is it is real, unbelief is for sinners and the lost. God bless you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is an interesting theory. Jesus came to save those who would listen to Him, who would respond, who He could empower to be overcomers.
This is so important, cowards are described as those who lose out.

The parable of the banquet is the invited guests did not want to come so the Lord sent out his servants to collect anyone they might find.
The word worthy of our calling comes to mind, not those who fail the calling and cannot be bothered.

Take the heroes of the faith.
Abraham who was tested about Isaac, who by offering him showed he feared God and was prepared to do anything.
Elijah who stood against 400 priests of Baal and trusted God would respond.
David who conquered the philistines and was the greatest king of Israel.
John the Baptist who shone a light, straightening the path ready for the beginning of the Kingdom come to earth.

These people were not strong in themselves by strong in God, while knowing their own flaws.
The point God makes is it is not how we start that matters but that we trust and know who He is and that he can provide for us.

The path Jesus is leading us on, is His path, and as such is not impossible, it is the path to life, and is where eternity lies.
Your testimony is unfortunately that this path is impossible, which must be the measure of what you think faith is.

My measure of faith is to know Jesus calls us to walk like Him, which is insane, unless, His love, His life, His reality changes us.
Now when I am in a house group with fellow believers, sharing the great words of the Lord, the insane thing is Jesus is there also.
And in this time we have victory in Him, as His Holy people, rejoicing and knowing and learning the walk.

What makes me laugh, is you cannot tell someone who knows the strength of the King, there is no strength, there is no victory, there in overcoming, because it only speaks to those of no faith and no experience of its reality. I sincerely wish you well, but the thing about testimonies and Gods word, is it is real, unbelief is for sinners and the lost. God bless you

Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, torepentance.”


jesus did not come to call the righteous to climb the mountain

he came to raise the dead (sick) so they can have life

I am not saying anything about you or your experience, only your words

you say you do not preach works, but every time you post it is about works, and deeds and climbing mountains?

sometimes we have to look inside and see our own flaws, before we can try to teach others

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, torepentance.”


jesus did not come to call the righteous to climb the mountain

he came to raise the dead (sick) so they can have life

I am not saying anything about you or your experience, only your words

you say you do not preach works, but every time you post it is about works, and deeds and climbing mountains?

sometimes we have to look inside and see our own flaws, before we can try to teach others

That passage is speaking pre conversion, the argument of the thread is post conversion. You might try some 2 Timothy 2:15 in your future argumentation because your proof texts are off topic. Not that I agree with a works salvation.

 

[FollowHim]

This is a case of false alternatives. It's like standing in 31 Flavors saying to yourself, it can be either Black Cherry or Spumoni, no other flavors available. No down side? I think there is a down side to wasting one's life in profligate living. But that downside is not that you become unborn from God.

Either the burden for our salvation lies on us, or lies on Jesus, but not on both, so take your pick.

Much love!

Here is the problem. There are weeds and there is good seed. Only God knows the true calling of His people.
He gives some real clues. His people hear Him, listen to His voice and follow.

Now the clue is there. Who are they following? Jesus. Because they believe He will lead them to victory over sin and death.
Now those who have no faith, who succumb to sins temptations and wiles will always say they are safe because they know Jesus and He would never throw out His children. The problem is, if they are not listening to Jesus and following Him, they are not His sheep, but they will shout and scream that they are the authentic reality, and the other group are the false hyprocrites claiming a reality that cannot exist, because Christ is just so sarcastic.

Now I encountered Jesus as a teenager, and was fascinated with His teaching and ways. I desired what He had to offer and have spent my life living in the world following His word. But to put this in context, this is Gods word from the heart, not pretend trying to be something I am not.

Internal truth is more important than external show, for our eternity rests on us getting this right in God.
After meeting too many believers, I realise to know Jesus through the core of who we are, is difficult. These forums declare loudly many are called but few are chosen. If anyone thinks love not lived out, is a believers life reality, are lost beyond hope. Hard hearts are not stirred or do they feel the touch when Jesus walks by, or His gentle calling to help another in need, or to give an encouraging word, or to lift a burden that another is finding too hard to bear.

There are many angry souls, who will shout and scream the worst of the faith are in churches. And the louder they shout, they do not see they are the very problem they are claiming to resolve, because the peace of God that passes understanding has not filled their hearts and minds in Christ Jesus, it is the passion to cleanse the body. God does not cleanse, He calls, He separates through fire and passion, through conviction and brokenness, through people seeing the truth of who they are before the cross and bowing in repentance and faith, to a loving Lord who picks them up and heals them.

Those who love Jesus, listen and follow, because to do anything else is to deny who He is.
Emotional unforgiveness, unrepentant hearts, closed rooms which cannot be entered, people and hurts never revisited and brought to glory, are impossible barriers, not just to the move of Jesus but to salvation, even though they claim they know Jesus, the door is closed.

But why if Jesus is love and He brings healing and joy, reconciliation and truth, the end to loneliness and betrayal, the end to abandonment and thinking no one loves you, why the closed doors in unbelief, why the doubting in His one can scale the mountain tops, like any other person created in Gods image. It takes faith and it takes sacrifice of who we are on the Lords altar, and trust we will become what He desires.
God bless you

 

[FollowHim]

Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, torepentance.”


jesus did not come to call the righteous to climb the mountain

he came to raise the dead (sick) so they can have life

I am not saying anything about you or your experience, only your words

you say you do not preach works, but every time you post it is about works, and deeds and climbing mountains?

sometimes we have to look inside and see our own flaws, before we can try to teach others

Do you read the bible?
The apostles tell the disciples to do things all the time, literally all the time. Do not follow the flesh, but put on the full armour of God, behave in a loving gentle way, be Holy, be pure.

If you claim this is preaching works, then the apostles preached works.
But these actions are not earning salvation but walking in it.

You are saved, but live an unholy sinful life. Opps. Then you cannot be saved, or else the reality would be you desire to walk in the ways of Jesus.
Jesus brought the Kingdom of heaven to earth, through the Holy Spirit dwelling in our hearts, as temples of God.
If we are not Holy temples, but sinners uncleansed and impure then we do not have the Holy Spirit and are not saved.

The great wonder is God cleanses us, and calls us to stay with Him and learn His walk of life.
In the parable of the seed and the sower the lost are those who forget the word, the seed, it dies and they go back to the world.
It cannot be clearer than this.

I love my wife, we have 3 kids, grown up now, and our life is different now than when we first met. Do I then throw this over for a younger model because pleasure matters more than sharing, love and intimacy? Was my love just for the good times, the times of youth, thrill and excitement? Or was my commitment to a life spent together, pulling and pushing along the way, growing and developing a deeper appreciation of who and what we are, a team, united and together, but different and individual at the same time.

So in Christ, is this covenant just a whim, a fancy, when things were good, or are the principles we would die for?
Now this could sound romantic heroism, but in truth life is only worthwhile based on love and sharing. So anyone who wishes to kill us, is offering something that is a denial of the very essence of life, then I would much rather be with Jesus than live in the forced insanity they are offering.

But for some their faith is just this flim flam of keeping themselves happy with pie in the sky, and if too costly, who cares, God will forgive them for giving up. Unfortunately the reality is we are what we do, because if we can shift so quickly, nothing really took in our hearts.

 

[FollowHim]

There is a strange reality I find myself in.
God declares me holy, pure, cleansed. I do not feel it, but through Jesus and the atoning sacrifice He has made me like this.
Now if I believe God, and His word, I must accept this is true.
So as part of Gods Holy people I must follow the path He lays out.

Now the dilemma we have as young believers this is all so strange and foreign, like children we need to learn a new way.
But as mature believers embedded in the word, knowing love and life, letting our hearts reach out and encourage and uplift others in words and deeds, we know this path is our path, this way is His Spirit in us, leading us on through the cross to victory.

Jesus is declaring in Him we are no longer victims but those who can apply His love to each and every situation we find ourselves in, and deal with it as if we were dealing with Jesus himself. So take each situation, and start committing it to God, and see what the Lord says to your heart in response. As part of Gods people, He will speak to you, and you will know the answer. That is what the Holy Spirit does to us, speaks Gods words straight to our hearts. But sadly many who claim to be born again never have been, and have no intention of following Jesus or His ways, just want the benefits with none of the change or cost. So to these folk, God bless you, get right with God now or one day you will meet Him and things will fall apart dramatically.

 

[Nancy]

Do you read the bible?
The apostles tell the disciples to do things all the time, literally all the time. Do not follow the flesh, but put on the full armour of God, behave in a loving gentle way, be Holy, be pure.

If you claim this is preaching works, then the apostles preached works.
But these actions are not earning salvation but walking in it.

You are saved, but live an unholy sinful life. Opps. Then you cannot be saved, or else the reality would be you desire to walk in the ways of Jesus.
Jesus brought the Kingdom of heaven to earth, through the Holy Spirit dwelling in our hearts, as temples of God.
If we are not Holy temples, but sinners uncleansed and impure then we do not have the Holy Spirit and are not saved.

The great wonder is God cleanses us, and calls us to stay with Him and learn His walk of life.
In the parable of the seed and the sower the lost are those who forget the word, the seed, it dies and they go back to the world.
It cannot be clearer than this.

I love my wife, we have 3 kids, grown up now, and our life is different now than when we first met. Do I then throw this over for a younger model because pleasure matters more than sharing, love and intimacy? Was my love just for the good times, the times of youth, thrill and excitement? Or was my commitment to a life spent together, pulling and pushing along the way, growing and developing a deeper appreciation of who and what we are, a team, united and together, but different and individual at the same time.

So in Christ, is this covenant just a whim, a fancy, when things were good, or are the principles we would die for?
Now this could sound romantic heroism, but in truth life is only worthwhile based on love and sharing. So anyone who wishes to kill us, is offering something that is a denial of the very essence of life, then I would much rather be with Jesus than live in the forced insanity they are offering.

But for some their faith is just this flim flam of keeping themselves happy with pie in the sky, and if too costly, who cares, God will forgive them for giving up. Unfortunately the reality is we are what we do, because if we can shift so quickly, nothing really took in our hearts.

There must be much change once we allow the seed to take root...we should be seeing everything in a different world view. And, in turn desire to please the Father in every way. I do fall short of this but, I can also say there has been tremendous change in my life and I know it was not done from my own strength.
He makes all things new

 

[Nancy]

There is a strange reality I find myself in.
God declares me holy, pure, cleansed. I do not feel it, but through Jesus and the atoning sacrifice He has made me like this.
Now if I believe God, and His word, I must accept this is true.
So as part of Gods Holy people I must follow the path He lays out.

Now the dilemma we have as young believers this is all so strange and foreign, like children we need to learn a new way.
But as mature believers embedded in the word, knowing love and life, letting our hearts reach out and encourage and uplift others in words and deeds, we know this path is our path, this way is His Spirit in us, leading us on through the cross to victory.

Jesus is declaring in Him we are no longer victims but those who can apply His love to each and every situation we find ourselves in, and deal with it as if we were dealing with Jesus himself. So take each situation, and start committing it to God, and see what the Lord says to your heart in response. As part of Gods people, He will speak to you, and you will know the answer. That is what the Holy Spirit does to us, speaks Gods words straight to our hearts. But sadly many who claim to be born again never have been, and have no intention of following Jesus or His ways, just want the benefits with none of the change or cost. So to these folk, God bless you, get right with God now or one day you will meet Him and things will fall apart dramatically.

So very glad that His Truth is not necessarily a "feeling"...

 

[Candidus]

That's not Gnosticism, if you mean to bandy about the historical term.

a prominent heretical movement of the 2nd-century Christian Church, partly of pre-Christian origin. Gnostic doctrine taught that the world was created and ruled by a lesser divinity, the demiurge, and that Christ was an emissary of the remote supreme divine being, esoteric knowledge (gnosis) of whom enabled the redemption of the human spirit.

Here is what a modern group says for themself:

GNOSTICISM IS THE TEACHING based on Gnosis, the knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of interior, intuitive means. Although Gnosticism thus rests on personal religious experience, it is a mistake to assume all such experience results in Gnostic recognitions. It is nearer the truth to say that Gnosticism expresses a specific religious experience, an experience that does not lend itself to the language of theology or philosophy, but which is instead closely affinitized to, and expresses itself through, the medium of myth. Indeed, one finds that most Gnostic scriptures take the forms of myths. The term “myth” should not here be taken to mean “stories that are not true”, but rather, that the truths embodied in these myths are of a different order from the dogmas of theology or the statements of philosophy.

In the following summary, we will attempt to encapsulate in prose what the Gnostic myths express in their distinctively poetic and imaginative language.

The Gnostic World View: A Brief Summary of Gnosticism

Obviously, you have not read up enough on Gnostic beliefs. It would be best to see their separation of the Physical and Spiritual worlds. If you had received Gnosis, you would have known this.

 

[Candidus]

I gave the definition of atonement and how it is accomplished.

What you are promoting here is legalistic works based atonement based on mans deeds, not on What God will accept

Legalism and mans deeds are not the issue that differentiates what the Bible says is Atonement, and the man-made commercial theory you force on it.