entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

[Eternally Grateful]

There must be much change once we allow the seed to take root...we should be seeing everything in a different world view. And, in turn desire to please the Father in every way. I do fall short of this but, I can also say there has been tremendous change in my life and I know it was not done from my own strength.
He makes all things new

Amen, He who began a good work will complete it

It is God who strengthens us and not only this but points us in the direction. And he also chastens us when we go astray, and leads us back to the correct path. As scripture says, His sheep know his voice and they follow..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Legalism and mans deeds are not the issue that differentiates what the Bible says is Atonement, and the man-made commercial theory you force on it.

Legalism is a term given to those who, by following a set of rules or guidelines and declaring that these things must be followed if one is to be saved.

I did not make up this term..

A good example would be the pharisees of Jesus day who followed the legalistic tradition of the law to earn their righteousness and ticket

A good example of a group we have today who would be representative of this would be the roman church and all of their sacraments.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I read on another forum a formula. It read you know deceivers if they say you can lose your salvation.

This is a faith within a faith. Scripture does not say guarantees to individuals but always it's in the Lord's hands. The elect will always stand, because His truth is their heart. Peter calls us to prove our calling. But get the picture, only love responds to this encouragement.
When we are hit around the head and told how dare you say you can follow Jesus, you vermin worse than murderers, our hearts respond, God bless you that you see our hearts, the flow of Jesus in our veins, His words that pour from us each day as we lift up His Holy name.

The lost hate God's people, because God's people shine a light on sin and failure, which is why the lost hate because they do not know Him but they know sin. You cannot hate those living the way of Jesus and be of Him.

For you to hear this, there is hope. This is eternal reality, life everlasting, the hardest thing in all creation, to pass from death to life. If you have never been here, then you need to come and bow, repent and give all to Him, and eternity will flood your soul. God bless you.

Question

You say here the elect will always stand

So if this is true

How can the elect ever lose salvation?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Paul never considered himself to have "arrived" at some supreme state of achievement:

"Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." (Philippians 3.14-15)

amen, and if paul never made it, Who are we to think we have ever made it

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There is the verse about the redemption of the purchased possession, although admittedly this is about the payment made for people, for sinners...

Look up the word redeem

The word redeem, a term used of someone who has had their freedom purchased or paid for. so they could be set free

 

[FollowHim]

Praise God yes, You should

Here is where you start to go off the path. You think you must, It is not because you want to. It because you think you must, If you do not. Then you will lose something, What can be lost. If you believe God made you pure and holy based on Gods atoning sacrifice. why do you continue to think you must make yourself Holy? Did God make you holy or not? it seems like you are Waring in your heart that you are not quite sure.

Amen again, you are spot on here

Where are these people Peter? I do not see them, Do You think I am one of them, because I reject that works must be done to earn salvation, But are a byproduct of one being saved?

There is an interesting reading into my words. I use the word must not in the sense I am forced against my will, but this is my desire, it is the thing that brings joy to my heart and soul that which pushes me on. I am though limited by time, distractions, temptations, and all the things that each day we need to do. And it is not because I will lose something, it is because this is the path of life, eternity.

Again, I do not make myself Holy, that is Gods work in us and He purifies us through faith, confession and dwelling in Him.
I am sad that my words are taken in this way, but then it must give you some reassurance to do this.

Clearly you feel yourself separate from the sharing of my heart, and need to see things differently. There are many who do not feel like you or react like you do. Are these your brothers and sisters in Christ or something else? And if I am so right in the Lord, why is it you need to change things as you do?

But why should I be grieved at your responses? Why should it affect me so? Because I have a heart for you, and the Lord laid it on me. I pray for you and your determination to turn my sharing into something it is not. When I love someone I desire to know them, as far as I can, and reach out to them where they are. To do this one does not change anothers words or perspective but tries to encompass it. Sometimes their sharing is encouraging and brings light of the Lord, sometimes it bring trauma and sadness.

We are quite different individuals, but then that probably is not something you see.
I suppose I could illustrate what I like doing most. I love computing, designing systems, helping people solve business problems. I love discussions and exploring ideas, at any level. I do a lot of fixing things, building structures, repairing cars, keeping the house working, plumbing etc. I used to cycle a lot, and do badmington, but not much now. I like science, of all sorts, and know quite a lot of medical and psychological knowledge. Now that is me. The Lord has blessed me in my fellowship, and I know through all the ups and downs, He is faithful to His people.
Now is this what you are like? If we are very similar, amen, but if not, which I suspect, projection is a dangerous thing.

And changing anothers intentions or sharing shows a need to make the world different than it actually is. Jesus left things alone, did not ruffle things, but let those who would listen to listen. God bless you.

 

[FollowHim]

But sadly many who claim to be born again never have been, and have no intention of following Jesus or His ways, just want the benefits with none of the change or cost. So to these folk, God bless you, get right with God now or one day you will meet Him and things will fall apart dramatically.

Where are these people Peter? I do not see them, Do You think I am one of them, because I reject that works must be done to earn salvation, But are a byproduct of one being saved?

In every situation we find ourselves in, there are people who have a set of beliefs, claiming the rights of being in Christ but have never entered in.
As a preacher this is a common occurrence, those born into the faith who take on the words but not the spiritual reality.

So many have testified that they were converted out of their denomination or tradition, because they knew religion in ceremonies, but not Christ speaking through it.

So if you have never met such people or see them, what gospel are you preaching and sharing? A universalist agenda?
Or is this just another expressing the opposite opinion for the sake of it, without any foundation. I know of almost nobody who has not met someone converted within the church who thought previously they were saved. So maybe you do not read or believe these things, or maybe this speaks more loudly than you can cope with.

 

[Joseph77]

www.biblehub.com/1_samuel/15-22.htm
Obedience is better than sacrifice, and submission is better than offering the fat of rams.

I desire mercy, not sacrifice

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There is an interesting reading into my words. I use the word must not in the sense I am forced against my will, but this is my desire, it is the thing that brings joy to my heart and soul that which pushes me on. I am though limited by time, distractions, temptations, and all the things that each day we need to do. And it is not because I will lose something, it is because this is the path of life, eternity.

Again, I do not make myself Holy, that is Gods work in us and He purifies us through faith, confession and dwelling in Him.
I am sad that my words are taken in this way, but then it must give you some reassurance to do this.

Clearly you feel yourself separate from the sharing of my heart, and need to see things differently. There are many who do not feel like you or react like you do. Are these your brothers and sisters in Christ or something else? And if I am so right in the Lord, why is it you need to change things as you do?

But why should I be grieved at your responses? Why should it affect me so? Because I have a heart for you, and the Lord laid it on me. I pray for you and your determination to turn my sharing into something it is not. When I love someone I desire to know them, as far as I can, and reach out to them where they are. To do this one does not change anothers words or perspective but tries to encompass it. Sometimes their sharing is encouraging and brings light of the Lord, sometimes it bring trauma and sadness.

We are quite different individuals, but then that probably is not something you see.
I suppose I could illustrate what I like doing most. I love computing, designing systems, helping people solve business problems. I love discussions and exploring ideas, at any level. I do a lot of fixing things, building structures, repairing cars, keeping the house working, plumbing etc. I used to cycle a lot, and do badmington, but not much now. I like science, of all sorts, and know quite a lot of medical and psychological knowledge. Now that is me. The Lord has blessed me in my fellowship, and I know through all the ups and downs, He is faithful to His people.
Now is this what you are like? If we are very similar, amen, but if not, which I suspect, projection is a dangerous thing.

And changing anothers intentions or sharing shows a need to make the world different than it actually is. Jesus left things alone, did not ruffle things, but let those who would listen to listen. God bless you.

so again, If you do not make yourself holy but God does it

Than how can you ever be unholy. and fall out of the adoption which you claim you have received? Would this not mean God failed?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In every situation we find ourselves in, there are people who have a set of beliefs, claiming the rights of being in Christ but have never entered in.
As a preacher this is a common occurrence, those born into the faith who take on the words but not the spiritual reality.

So many have testified that they were converted out of their denomination or tradition, because they knew religion in ceremonies, but not Christ speaking through it.

So if you have never met such people or see them, what gospel are you preaching and sharing? A universalist agenda?
Or is this just another expressing the opposite opinion for the sake of it, without any foundation. I know of almost nobody who has not met someone converted within the church who thought previously they were saved. So maybe you do not read or believe these things, or maybe this speaks more loudly than you can cope with.

yes I have met people who claim they are saved, But I do not think they are

but That was not my question,

I asked about people who claim they are saved, But have no desire to walk in Gods ways

Can you answer this question please.

 

[Episkopos]

Look up the word redeem

The word redeem, a term used of someone who has had their freedom purchased or paid for. so they could be set free

We have indeed been redeemed from the world...to enter into the training and selection process of God. We have entered into a race that is based on faith and faithfulness.

But few take the race seriously enough. Many will fail the grace of God. They figure they don't need to run because they are redeemed into the race. They don't realize that they have not yet made the grade....and refuse to press forward because of assumptions and presumptions.

Many will be disqualified from the race AFTER having been redeemed. Just like when the Israelites were redeemed from among the people of Egypt...but only to perish in the wilderness.

It's about OUR attitude. We will be judged based on that...and what we did with what we have been given.

 

[FollowHim]

Question
You say here the elect will always stand
So if this is true
How can the elect ever lose salvation?

The elect will never fail, which is why they are called the elect.
But we do not know who the elect are, though we can guess by the fruit of their hearts.

And for us, it does not matter, because we are called to love all and serve their needs like our own.
This is the meaning of agape love, sacrifice without judgement, love despite hurt and rejection.

Jesus showed this to Judas, even when Judas was about to betray Him.
False security is in belonging rather than being. We can belong to many groups, but being what we need to be, is the reality of Christ.

I suppose when a learner driver claims they can drive a car, but has not passed the test, they take control and set off, not seeing the accident that is going to happen, because they believed they had achieved something which they had not. So in teaching people arriving at faith, or a belief in Christ is eternity alone, leads to false faith and belief that has no value.

Sadly I have known groups, filled with the Holy Spirit, gifted and anointed, after 5 years are no more, and the people left the faith. Now this is odd, because they truly burnt with blessing of God and the Holy Spirit, but now are no more. I could say they are the elect, for that is how they appeared, yet there end seems to testify not so. It seems the experience of love and the Spirit was everything, until it went, and so did their faith.
God knows their end, and His judgement. But the Lords ways are to walk on, in love and into eternity.
God bless you

 

[FollowHim]

yes I have met people who claim they are saved, But I do not think they are

but That was not my question,

I asked about people who claim they are saved, But have no desire to walk in Gods ways

Can you answer this question please.

Salvation is desiring to walk in Gods ways. If one hates Gods ways, one hates God, because His will is the expression of who He is.
Jesus put it like this

If you love me, you will obey what I command.
John 14:15

What I find absurd is the line that some follow
23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
1 John 3:23

The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent
John 6:29

So belief is obeying Gods commands, that is all one has to do.
It is possible to create a cause and effect loop in this logic, except it excludes the problem of a selfish sinful heart and how we love from the heart in our walk with Jesus. Some of this discussion though is not helpful, because if anyone does not know what love is, in themselves, when they personally loves another, nothing that is shared will get through.

The Lord in my experience though is brilliant at getting us into this place where we see our love, our weakness and where His love and strength took Him, and pow, we get humbled and thankful, and praise lifts from our hearts to Him, for His forgiveness and grace to us through the cross.
Now every believer I have ever met knows this reality, it is our birth and foundation. So when I met others who claim many other things, I have to believe they do not know my Lord and Saviour at all.

God bless you

The ironic thing is you cannot lay a foundation in another, they either connect or they do not. And because you could say this is a mystical experience to be born of the Lord, it is not an argument, only a testimony. It is also true, when you share something you care about, some disengage and do not care at all, and others are struck to the heart. It is their choice. So I just praise the Lord, and know each individual has their walk to walk.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We have indeed been redeemed from the world...to enter into the training and selection process of God. We have entered into a race that is based on faith and faithfulness.

But few take the race seriously enough. Many will fail the grace of God. They figure they don't need to run because they are redeemed into the race. They don't realize that they have not yet made the grade....and refuse to press forward because of assumptions and presumptions.

Many will be disqualified from the race AFTER having been redeemed. Just like when the Israelites were redeemed from among the people of Egypt...but only to perish in the wilderness.

It's about OUR attitude. We will be judged based on that...and what we did with what we have been given.

we need grace because we have failed

it is troubling you think that you can earn it

 

[FollowHim]

Where in scripture does God say "Disobey me, I will forgive you, dishonour me and I will save you, hate my ways and I will give you everything you ever wanted."

There is a sense in which you can make a negative, do not do this, into a positive, its okay, I will sort everything out.
The key shift in logic is responsibility and consequences. Once responsibility is taken away, you are a person out of control, and consequences, the problems and suffering created will be cleaned up, then one can say, everything is fine, a negative, feeling bad about failure, can be a positive, belief that it is all sorted out and nothing bad individually will be a problem.

The line can then be taken, those who say we need to own our actions and their consequences are evil condemning people, because it creates guilt, bad feeling and a sense of rejection, which is unbelief that everything is actually sorted out, and therefore is the enemy of this kind of belief.

This all comes together with entire sanctification, because if salvation is resolution of ones life, by walking like Jesus, then there is true responsibility and true solutions. If on the other hand you believe responsibility and consequences are not ours to have, just belief, then this is the enemy speaking.

Not surprisingly then some will regard this proposition as the enemy. God bless you all.

 

[Joseph77]

Jesus says, on judgment day, begone from Me, I never knew you....
to a multitude of 'believers' already 'saved' today (they think), because they trust in a false gospel, a lie, and do not turn to God for the truth, they do not repent. They do not obey Jesus , they do not seek the Father, they do not seek God's True Kingdom.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The elect will never fail, which is why they are called the elect.

Amen, Thats why Eternal security, eternal life, OSAS, whatever you want to call it, is a proven Doctrine

But we do not know who the elect are, though we can guess by the fruit of their hearts.

True, But this does not determine who gets to heaven and who Does not. God knows who has true faith and who does not does he not?

And for us, it does not matter, because we are called to love all and serve their needs like our own.
This is the meaning of agape love, sacrifice without judgement, love despite hurt and rejection.

Jesus showed this to Judas, even when Judas was about to betray Him.

I agree, amen, this is how we are sanctified, By loving, as God loved us, This is how a child of God finds victory. And what empowers them to walk in his way, and keep running the race. But this is only empowered by our security in Christ is it not?

False security is in belonging rather than being. We can belong to many groups, but being what we need to be, is the reality of Christ.

Explain this. How can we being adopted into Gods family, and Given Gods spirit. Which god himself says is not a spirit of fear. but of sound mind, and a God which we can call our Abba, false security?

Is it false security to know you have been purchased, signed and sealed as a child of God. where God says he will NEVER forsake you

Or is it false security to think your belonging into Gods family is based on how good you are. or how many works you do. Always wondering, did I do enough, Does not God love me, I have done these bad things, how can my father love me?

Satan gets into our heads of how worthless we are. that is one of his goals. If he can either get us to think we are good enough, or to continually focus on how unworthy we are. He has us where he wants us, Self focused, and not God and other focused. Is this not more dangeorus that the knowledge you belong based on Gods love?

I suppose when a learner driver claims they can drive a car, but has not passed the test, they take control and set off, not seeing the accident that is going to happen, because they believed they had achieved something which they had not. So in teaching people arriving at faith, or a belief in Christ is eternity alone, leads to false faith and belief that has no value.

What?

Again you are looking at works again.

A dead person can not drive, Once that person is made alive, He is given the tools to learn to drive, If he follows God, he will be ok, When he decides to do it on his own, He will most likely fail. And either get lost. Make huge mistake or crash. (this is called sanctification or christian growth)

But of one is not saved, He does not even get to begin this process.

Sadly I have known groups, filled with the Holy Spirit, gifted and anointed, after 5 years are no more, and the people left the faith. Now this is odd, because they truly burnt with blessing of God and the Holy Spirit, but now are no more. I could say they are the elect, for that is how they appeared, yet there end seems to testify not so. It seems the experience of love and the Spirit was everything, until it went, and so did their faith.
God knows their end, and His judgement. But the Lords ways are to walk on, in love and into eternity.
God bless you

John said these people were never of us, If they were of us, they never would have left.

I know many people who appeared to be on fire Christians who walked away also

Where they saved? I must go with what God tells me, And he tells me they never were of us.. For me to guess would be to try to be God myself. I can not do that

 

[Joseph77]

Arguing something false is true, by stating what is false first, as a premise, is not kosher.

Amen, Thats why Eternal security, eternal life, OSAS, whatever you want to call it, is a proven Doctrine

 

[Joseph77]

For me to guess would be to try to be God myself. I can not do that

And yet you just either 'guessed', or posted knowing, that "osas doctrine" is not proven truth.

 

[FollowHim]

Jesus says, on judgment day, begone from Me, I never knew you....
to a multitude of 'believers' already 'saved' today (they think), because they trust in a false gospel, a lie, and do not turn to God for the truth, they do not repent. They do not obey Jesus , they do not seek the Father, they do not seek God's True Kingdom.

God does not change. Who are Gods friends and who are Gods enemies.

4 Even in darkness light dawns for the upright, for the gracious and compassionate and righteous man.
5 Good will come to him who is generous and lends freely, who conducts his affairs with justice.
6 Surely he will never be shaken; a righteous man will be remembered forever.
Psalm 112:4-6

5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.
6 You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors.
Psalm 5:5-6

17 But from everlasting to everlasting the LORD's love is with those who fear him, and his righteousness with their children's children-
18 with those who keep his covenant and remember to obey his precepts.
19 The LORD has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all.
Psalm 103:17-19

7 For the LORD is righteous, he loves justice; upright men will see his face
Psalm 11:7

8 the LORD gives sight to the blind, the LORD lifts up those who are bowed down, the LORD loves the righteous.
9 The LORD watches over the alien and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked.
Psalm 146:8-9

The Lord has always expressed His will to bless the righteous and judge sinners.
To claim that sinners are now safe, without change, without love, without being in Christ and walking in His righteous ways is to deny the very heart of God and His will.

But then sinners will always storm the gates and try and force their way in to get the reward they deserve, despite earning only judgement.