entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

[Candidus]

I agree that the way today we use gnosticism and the detailed secret knowledge the gnostics had are not the same.
The connection in simplistic terms is the belief that the body is innately evil and can never be regarded as holy or pure, but the spirit of a believer can be, and responsibility for behaviour of the body can be disowned by the spirit until its death of the body happens. This duality is linked by many commentators as a gnostic world view, and certainly I have met enough who 100% believe this, or even preach it on TBN.

One prophet said by just praying give me a new spirit to God, you became an eternal being, and were eternally saved, which they did on a TV show. It was for me very odd, because this had no correspondence with scripture or repentance and faith in the cross and dedication to walk the path of righteousness and reject evil, which is the hall mark of Christian belief from its beginning.

For this reason I call such believers gnostic, but one could invent a new term to describe it, as in it seems these ideas are a new creation. Some have suggested Augustine started it with original sin, and the calvanists amplified it in the reformation. Ofcourse to suggest this is a total new formulation would be difficult for such believers as it would disown what went before, though some would be happy to do this. God bless you

The world of Gnosticism, even in the days of the Bible was diverse. Several "gnostic" sects ran concurrently. Yet one thing in common with them was that they viewed the physical world as defective, and the special knowledge that the "select" would have revealed to them is that we are actually spirit. Matter is evil/ the spirit is pure.

You are correct that the Gnostic influence came into Christian acceptance with Augustine. How much his Manicheanism affected his doctrine of Original Sin, I don't know.

 

[Candidus]

@Candidus

Revelation 5:9 "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"

This would be a purchase, would it not?

Much love!

Jesus purchased sin? I don't think that you can find that in any Bible!

 

[farouk]

Paul never considered himself to have "arrived" at some supreme state of achievement:

"Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." (Philippians 3.14-15)

 

[farouk]

Jesus purchased sin? I don't think that you can find that in any Bible!

Pardon was purchased.

 

[Candidus]

Pardon was purchased.

I agree, yet people insist that the Bible says that Jesus "paid for sin," but continue to refuse to show any verse that says this! If sins are paid for, then there is nothing to pardon.

 

[farouk]

I agree, yet people insist that the Bible says that Jesus "paid for sin," but continue to refuse to show any verse that says this! If sins are paid for, then there is nothing to pardon.

Hebrews 1 says 'He by Himself purged our sins'; i.e., not the sins of all everywhere irrespective of faith, but of all who believe.

 

[farouk]

That passage is speaking pre conversion, the argument of the thread is post conversion. You might try some 2 Timothy 2:15 in your future argumentation because your proof texts are off topic. Not that I agree with a works salvation.

@Preacher4Truth There's always work to do for the justified believer, until the Lord calls us individually Home.

 

[farouk]

@Preacher4Truth PS: I know would agree with this, anyway...

 

[Candidus]

Paul never considered himself to have "arrived" at some supreme state of achievement:

"Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." (Philippians 3.14-15)

Paul never asked anyone to pray for any sins he was struggling with. What had Paul not "apprehended"/ It was not holiness, "You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed." It was not Perfection, “Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.”... it was Glorification, the resurrection from the dead. (Phil. 3:11).

 

[Candidus]

Hebrews 1 says 'He by Himself purged our sins'; i.e., not the sins of all everywhere irrespective of faith, but of all who believe.

I agree that He purged our sins... I still have never seen anything that said that He paid for our sins.

 

[farouk]

I agree that He purged our sins... I still have never seen anything that said that He paid for our sins.

There is the verse about the redemption of the purchased possession, although admittedly this is about the payment made for people, for sinners...

 

[Candidus]

There is the verse about the redemption of the purchased possession, although admittedly this is about the payment made for people, for sinners...

And.. it says absolutely nothing about a "payment for sins."

 

[farouk]

And.. it says absolutely nothing about a "payment for sins."

It's implied in the hymn:

"...Payment God will not twice demand
First at my bleeding surety's side
And then again at mine."

 

[Candidus]

The problem with "payment for sins" besides that it is not in the Bible, and that it is bad theology.... in that you can hardly listen to a sermon where this is not stated, and stated more emphatically than Scripture itself! People get so convinced from the repetition of the dogma that they actually believe it is Scripture itself!

 

[Candidus]

It's implied in the hymn:

"...Payment God will not twice demand
First at my bleeding surety's side
And then again at mine."

A lot a Hymns "imply" false doctrines.

 

[farouk]

A lot a Hymns "imply" false doctrines.

I actually don't think it's expressed unreasonably, in this case...

 

[Candidus]

I actually don't think it's expressed unreasonably, in this case...

They can state it any way they wish; it does not make it Biblical or true. In that case it is an example of why it is unreasonable, because it suggests that a payment made must result in the release from future punishment for the one who's sin was "paid for." Sin cannot be punished twice!

Allow me to demonstrate the logical outcome of making an unbiblical theory as equal or greater than what the Bible actually says:

Everyone will be saved! The Universalist rejoices! "And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 Jn. 2:2. Sin is already "paid for." Sin cannot be punished twice!

The Fatalist and Calvinist cheers for the inevitable predestination of the sheep alone! “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep." Jesus only "paid for" the Sheep, and they cannot ever be lost! Getting "saved" is just merely waking up to the fact that you have always been saved! Sin cannot be punished twice!

The Antinomian declares that they can sin with impunity because they believe that their "sins are paid for, past, present and future"! Sin cannot be punished twice!

There are three horns to impale yourself on with this dilemma. None are necessary, reasonable, or Biblical.

 

[FollowHim]

I read on another forum a formula. It read you know deceivers if they say you can lose your salvation.

This is a faith within a faith. Scripture does not say guarantees to individuals but always it's in the Lord's hands. The elect will always stand, because His truth is their heart. Peter calls us to prove our calling. But get the picture, only love responds to this encouragement.
When we are hit around the head and told how dare you say you can follow Jesus, you vermin worse than murderers, our hearts respond, God bless you that you see our hearts, the flow of Jesus in our veins, His words that pour from us each day as we lift up His Holy name.

The lost hate God's people, because God's people shine a light on sin and failure, which is why the lost hate because they do not know Him but they know sin. You cannot hate those living the way of Jesus and be of Him.

For you to hear this, there is hope. This is eternal reality, life everlasting, the hardest thing in all creation, to pass from death to life. If you have never been here, then you need to come and bow, repent and give all to Him, and eternity will flood your soul. God bless you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do you read the bible?
The apostles tell the disciples to do things all the time, literally all the time. Do not follow the flesh, but put on the full armour of God, behave in a loving gentle way, be Holy, be pure.

If you claim this is preaching works, then the apostles preached works.
But these actions are not earning salvation but walking in it.

You are saved, but live an unholy sinful life. Opps. Then you cannot be saved, or else the reality would be you desire to walk in the ways of Jesus.
Jesus brought the Kingdom of heaven to earth, through the Holy Spirit dwelling in our hearts, as temples of God.
If we are not Holy temples, but sinners uncleansed and impure then we do not have the Holy Spirit and are not saved.

The great wonder is God cleanses us, and calls us to stay with Him and learn His walk of life.
In the parable of the seed and the sower the lost are those who forget the word, the seed, it dies and they go back to the world.
It cannot be clearer than this.

I love my wife, we have 3 kids, grown up now, and our life is different now than when we first met. Do I then throw this over for a younger model because pleasure matters more than sharing, love and intimacy? Was my love just for the good times, the times of youth, thrill and excitement? Or was my commitment to a life spent together, pulling and pushing along the way, growing and developing a deeper appreciation of who and what we are, a team, united and together, but different and individual at the same time.

So in Christ, is this covenant just a whim, a fancy, when things were good, or are the principles we would die for?
Now this could sound romantic heroism, but in truth life is only worthwhile based on love and sharing. So anyone who wishes to kill us, is offering something that is a denial of the very essence of life, then I would much rather be with Jesus than live in the forced insanity they are offering.

But for some their faith is just this flim flam of keeping themselves happy with pie in the sky, and if too costly, who cares, God will forgive them for giving up. Unfortunately the reality is we are what we do, because if we can shift so quickly, nothing really took in our hearts.

See, Here you go again preaching works.

The apostles did tell them (CHILDREN OF GOD WHO WERE SAVED ALREADY) to put on the whole armor

Its like your mountain climbing example

They were dead because of sin, God raised them from the dead (spiritually) (and you, he made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sin Eph 2: 1) After which he gave them their mountain climbing tools (in your words, Being given ropes, helmet, harness, nuts, supports etc.) which is representative of the whole armor of God, and told to climb the mountain (work toward being Christlike Becoming like him, Being a light in the world. And drawing people to God) and you will be rewarded for what you accomplish (gold silver precious stone, wood hay and straw)

You have this all as working to earn salvation.. As I said, only the strong will be saved, the weak will have no hope. And the passage I showed you proves this, Jesus did not come for the strong, but for the weak.

Jesus did not come for people who are strong (think they can make it to the top of the mountain on their own)

But the weak (those who have become poor in spirit because they realize they are DEAD. and need saved

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There is a strange reality I find myself in.
God declares me holy, pure, cleansed. I do not feel it, but through Jesus and the atoning sacrifice He has made me like this.
Now if I believe God, and His word, I must accept this is true.

Praise God yes, You should

So as part of Gods Holy people I must follow the path He lays out.

Here is where you start to go off the path. You think you must, It is not because you want to. It because you think you must, If you do not. Then you will lose something, What can be lost. If you believe God made you pure and holy based on Gods atoning sacrifice. why do you continue to think you must make yourself Holy? Did God make you holy or not? it seems like you are Waring in your heart that you are not quite sure.

Now the dilemma we have as young believers this is all so strange and foreign, like children we need to learn a new way.
But as mature believers embedded in the word, knowing love and life, letting our hearts reach out and encourage and uplift others in words and deeds, we know this path is our path, this way is His Spirit in us, leading us on through the cross to victory.

Jesus is declaring in Him we are no longer victims but those who can apply His love to each and every situation we find ourselves in, and deal with it as if we were dealing with Jesus himself. So take each situation, and start committing it to God, and see what the Lord says to your heart in response. As part of Gods people, He will speak to you, and you will know the answer. That is what the Holy Spirit does to us, speaks Gods words straight to our hearts.

Amen again, you are spot on here

But sadly many who claim to be born again never have been, and have no intention of following Jesus or His ways, just want the benefits with none of the change or cost. So to these folk, God bless you, get right with God now or one day you will meet Him and things will fall apart dramatically.

Where are these people Peter? I do not see them, Do You think I am one of them, because I reject that works must be done to earn salvation, But are a byproduct of one being saved?