The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[FollowHim]

The Early Church Fathers were UNANYMOUS on their teaching of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, not a mere symbol. A symbol cannot give eternal life.

I wish I could believe the miracle you claim, except I cannot because other evidence suggests otherwise.

Jesus said we could ask anything and He would do it. Yet clearly this is not so child like and simple. Jesus always used metaphor and symbols. You take the symbol and make it miraculous. Jesus's emphasis was on the heart, love and our walk.
The Eucharist view changes this focus into a magic moment. Rather than deal with issues, get an innoculation against the consequences. Just not God's way. It becomes a recreation of the temple and sacrifices. I see why some take mass each day. The long life pill.

 

[Grailhunter]

I wish I could believe the miracle you claim, except I cannot because other evidence suggests otherwise.

Jesus said we could ask anything and He would do it. Yet clearly this is not so child like and simple. Jesus always used metaphor and symbols. You take the symbol and make it miraculous. Jesus's emphasis was on the heart, love and our walk.
The Eucharist view changes this focus into a magic moment. Rather than deal with issues, get an innoculation against the consequences. Just not God's way. It becomes a recreation of the temple and sacrifices. I see why some take mass each day. The long life pill.

No life in you and Christ will not raise you....so you tell me what it means.

 

[FollowHim]

No life in you and Christ will not raise you....so you tell me what it means.

Who is our father in the faith? Abraham.
It is belief that saves us, applied acting on gift of faith God gives us in Christ.

Self sacrifice is a difficult concept, to die to self and live to Christ.
Living in Jesus's way and love is the focus, and the centrality of its expression, the cross.

Turning this into some magical eating flesh and drinking blood, misses the point. The bread does not have to be actually Jesus's body to convey the meaning or the wine actually Jesus's blood. We are to behave as if these things are true, to show the honour and loyalty we have to the cross and the sacrifice.

The whole of history centres on this expression of love, the cross and its importance. The temple is removed, the atoning sacrifice has been offered, once for all, to bring forgiveness of sins to ourselves through faith. The focus on the sacrifice is fantastic, missing the significance of self sacrifice and the emotional and spiritual change within us, not so.

A sacramental view of life, is we are as we are, and if we perform the sacraments we will obtain salvation. This can become a view similar to easy believism, where external ceremonies replace the change of ones heart and have love embedded and working in our lives.

This common approach lead to the impact of being born again, when people came to a realisation of their personal sin and being cleansed and forgiven outside of the sacraments. So the question in their minds was then, what mattered more, the spiritual reality or the sacraments?

One lady I met described this as being converted out of their church. My own experience is similar as I grew up in an anglican church, but it was through faith and its expression that I found life and spiritual reality. God bless you

 

[Grailhunter]

Who is our father in the faith? Abraham.
It is belief that saves us, applied acting on gift of faith God gives us in Christ.

Self sacrifice is a difficult concept, to die to self and live to Christ.
Living in Jesus's way and love is the focus, and the centrality of its expression, the cross.

Turning this into some magical eating flesh and drinking blood, misses the point. The bread does not have to be actually Jesus's body to convey the meaning or the wine actually Jesus's blood. We are to behave as if these things are true, to show the honour and loyalty we have to the cross and the sacrifice.

The whole of history centres on this expression of love, the cross and its importance. The temple is removed, the atoning sacrifice has been offered, once for all, to bring forgiveness of sins to ourselves through faith. The focus on the sacrifice is fantastic, missing the significance of self sacrifice and the emotional and spiritual change within us, not so.

A sacramental view of life, is we are as we are, and if we perform the sacraments we will obtain salvation. This can become a view similar to easy believism, where external ceremonies replace the change of ones heart and have love embedded and working in our lives.

This common approach lead to the impact of being born again, when people came to a realisation of their personal sin and being cleansed and forgiven outside of the sacraments. So the question in their minds was then, what mattered more, the spiritual reality or the sacraments?

One lady I met described this as being converted out of their church. My own experience is similar as I grew up in an anglican church, but it was through faith and its expression that I found life and spiritual reality. God bless you

Turning this into some magical eating flesh and drinking blood, misses the point. The bread does not have to be actually Jesus's body to convey the meaning or the wine actually Jesus's blood. We are to behave as if these things are true, to show the honour and loyalty we have to the cross and the sacrifice.

Turning this into some magical eating and drinking blood….
Are you suggesting Yeshua was a witch?

This is His own words. Obviously extremely important and necessary. He knew this would be sacrilegious to the Jews and His own disciples and Apostles. He gave them no choice. He risked losing His own Apostles they were so appalled! The meaning was clear and disturbed everyone present. The scriptures indicate His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. He could have lost His Apostles! He even asked them, You do not want to go away also, do you? Regardless if they stayed or left, He was not going to deny the truth.

His own explanation, His own words… He will not abide in you and you will not abide him….no life in you….you will not be raised in the last day. You want to make fun and scoff at this! You are on shaky ground!

Then He performed the ritual….at no point did He suggest that it was symbolic….This is my blood….This is my body. So…do you think He lied? Do you think He was mental? Do you think He was just getting off pretending people were drinking His blood and eating His body? Who are you to correct Christ!

People quibble over the most vague and short scriptures….this was from Christ Himself and takes up more than a page, and still people do not get it.

Salvation is about the blood of Christ. In this world where even baptism is thought to be merely and declaration that an individual has chosen a religion, faith has become very shallow and unbelieving, to the point that people have the audacity to correct the words of Christ. They pick and choose what they think should be taught in Christianity and disregard the very words of Christ. The anti-Christs declare they know the Gospel better than Christ!

Young Christians, be sure to know that the words of Christ are true! Do not let the anti-Christs preach a false Gospel to you. Believe in Christ and believe in the miracles of Christ!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The point is eternal is a promise not a thing or object. Life eternal can be stopped because it exists if not stopped. One could miss this. A past event cannot be changed, it has happened.

Part of the theory of salvation event is it cannot be undone. If salvation is about faith and realisation which is counted as acceptance, if faith goes, realisation evaporates, then salvation is lost. The dried dead branch.

If it can be stopped. IT IS NOT ETERNAL

If it can be stopped IT IS CONDITIONAL

WHy can people not see this.

ps. Yes it is a thing.. It is called a gift. A gift is a thing

"the wage of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life in Jesu"

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Early Church Fathers were UNANYMOUS on their teaching of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, not a mere symbol. A symbol cannot give eternal life.

Agree it is not just a symbol

But if the eucharist Gave it, Then the one who eats, as jesus said in john 6 will never die. and have eternal life

 

[Grailhunter]

The anti-Christs have been around for awhile….an army of little demons that make a mockery of the Gospels. Twist the words of Christ so people do not understand. Some start religions that deny the deity of Christ. Other preach that God has all the characteristics of Satan. That God has denied all of mankind free-will and has created planet of puppets. That God has damned some people before the creation of the world and has provided Satan a guaranteed quota of souls. Some preach that miracles ceased at the end of the biblical era. That all that happens at baptism is you get wet. That the bread and wine ritual is a lie, that it means nothing and does nothing. Others preach that they are sinless.

Beware of the anti-Christs that preach that the sacrificial death of Christ only provides a very flimsy salvation.

Young Christians study what Christ said closely and look at what He did. What was His attitude when He dealt with sinners like the prostitute that kissed His feet and the adulterous that was brought before Him and the woman at the well? What was His attitude towards the legalists?

Know the truth. The religion of Christianity is about morality, but service to Christ does not end there. The good boy that sits like a bump on a log waiting to go to heaven is in service to himself and is of no service to Christ…he has taken his talent and buried it! Look at the Parable of the Goats and the Sheep and story of the Good Samaritan Look at what Christ did in the Gospels. In the story of the woman at the well, He took a sinner and used her to take the Gospel to the Samaritans.

Young Christian do not let the anti-Christs twist the scriptures to make you think you have to be perfect to be a Christian. Take up the banner of Christ, love God and love one another. Have compassion for one another and help those you can. Leave the judging, the condemning, and the gossiping to the little demons. Leave the legalistic nature to the self-righteous. Be confident in the saving grace of Christ and be in service to Him. Walk with Christ everyday and if you trip up, He will be there to pick you up.

 

[FollowHim]

If it can be stopped. IT IS NOT ETERNAL

If it can be stopped IT IS CONDITIONAL

WHy can people not see this.

ps. Yes it is a thing.. It is called a gift. A gift is a thing

"the wage of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life in Jesu"

I think this is the point I am making.
Giving eternal life is a promise, it is not a thing.

I can give you a ticket to fly to europe, but it only has value when you get on the plane and fly. If the flight never takes place, it is just a bit of paper. We have life today, which in Christ goes on forever.

Until it stops it is eternal. Or to put this another way, everyone will die, as far as we know, but equally everyone is eternal, until they die. Another aspect is when you jump off a building it is the impact with the ground that kills you not the fall.

The promise is the gift, the freedom from the second death. And this promise is conditional, it always has been, because God is a conditional God. If we see His face we will die. It we are not transformed, we will be destroyed when we see Him. It is this transformation that people are arguing about, or even if it is necessary. And part of this transformation is communion with Jesus. Without this we are nothing, just chaff.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You haven't "proven" anything of the kind.

As I showed you - The Bread of Life Discourse in John 6 corresponds with ALL of the Last Supper narratives in Matt. 26:26–28, Luke 22:19–20, Mark 14:22–24, and 1 Cor. 11:23–25.
There is NO escaping the fact that John 6:22-71 leads up to the Last Supper, where Jesus give the Sacramental prescription for the Eucharist.

the only thing "hard to understand" here is how somebody can read all of these passages and STILL be blind to the truth . . .

No. You showed me what you THINK it means

You have not resolved the issue that one is to be taken often, and is a physical meal. and promises nothing the other promises

And the other is a spiritual food. Which endures to eternal life. Which gives the one who eats all Jesus promised

Until you resolve those issues

You have nothing to offer me.

 

[Candidus]

Wrong

If it could be lost. ITS NOT ETERNAL. ITS CONDITIONAL

You can have your conditional life.. I will wish you well

Bad logic. If its eternal, it cannot have a beginning either... so if you did not always have it before you existed, you can never get it!

Everyone has eternal existence (called life) in the sense of that our lives do not end at physical death. So there is really nothing special about the distinction of "eternal" unless it speaks of a quality of life as it does about a life being without time.

Scripture presents Eternal Life as result of Present Tense faith/belief on Christ. You can pretend that there are no conditions, but that will never make it true. You can force your circular logic on Scripture to make it say what you want, but you will have neither truth or Biblical Christianity.

When you key in on the word "eternal," you fail to see that the quality of "everlasting" is connected to "life" and not to our "having" it or "possessing" it! The "life" is "eternal," and not the believer! Having Eternal Life does not mean that we have an irrevocable possession of it! Whether we accept Christ and the gift of eternal life or not, has no bearing on the quality of the gift, "eternal life." The gift stays eternal whether we possess it or not! The quality of the "life" is "eternal," whether anyone would ever believe on Christ or not.

If I receive an eternal Pearl of great price as a gift, it is mine; I "have" an eternal Pearl. It is something that I should cherish and rejoice in! But what if I trade it in for something I would rather have? What if I no longer cherish the gift or the One that gave it to me. What if I then become careless and then I lose it somewhere? Even if I cast it away, the Pearl remains eternal! It just ceases to be my possession! According to the Bible, you only "have" Eternal Life on the condition of a present tense faith. The Bible also says that there are several results of a saving faith. It repents, it confesses, it changes the nature of the believer through regeneration, conversion, the New-Birth and sanctification. They are not the same. They bear much fruit because they were created in Jesus Christ unto good works. The condition of "Belief" is more than a whim.

Building a foundation on how you want to define things is no different that the people I know that say that "God is a God of Love; He would never send anybody to Hell, because that would not be LOVE!" Their argument, while supremely convincing to them, is no more as sure a foundation for finding Biblical truth as using a single word "eternal" to create a doctrine.

 

[Candidus]

Eternal security.....
Like Christ said, The process of salvation I have for you is a gift, but it is a gift that is easily lost and many Christians will be in hell. I am sorry I could not do better. Your salvation is dependent on how perfect you are.

Your argument is based on how you feel... not Scripture fact.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

CORRECT.

So, tell me, @Eternally Grateful - WHY do you suppose this is the case??

Why would I care?

I care about what the word of God says, Not Men.

Tell me @BreadOfLife Why do you insist on following men not the Bible

 

[Candidus]

Like I said, believe what you want

You want to earn your salvation feel free

But do not tell me your not working for your salvation.

The answer to the Bible and what it clearly and always says is....

"I don't care what the Bible has to say; I have a theory!"

 

[Eternally Grateful]

mailmandan said: ↑

If you believe that salvation is by works (at least in part) then you believe it’s earned (at least in part). Either we are saved by trusting or we are saved by working. Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can’t have it both ways.​

First, mailman confuses redemption (Christ did it all) with salvation. Second, we use biblical/historical definitions for terms like "faith", "believe" and "works" and a host of other terms. Anti-Catholics don't speak the same language, and until we get the biblical/historical definitions ironed out, and avoid the political definitions of the 16th century, these kinds of discussions go nowhere.
BTW, post 3775-6 are excellent summaries refuting mailmandan's false dichotomy.

First

We are saved BECAUSE of redemption.

If we are not redeemed we are not saved.

so in essence they are interelated. ie, if we are redeemed we are saved, if we are not redeemed, we are still dead in our sins.

Instead of worrying about what people thought about in the 3rd or 16th century, lets try to figure out what they meant in the early 1st century, since that is when the bible was written. And we have those words in our hands to study? Do you not think that would be the smarter thing to do?

 

[Candidus]

If it can be stopped. IT IS NOT ETERNAL

If it can be stopped IT IS CONDITIONAL

WHy can people not see this.

ps. Yes it is a thing.. It is called a gift. A gift is a thing

"the wage of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life in Jesu"

If it can be stopped IT IS CONDITIONAL...

You mean it was fated to certain people from before time (eternity) and they have nothing to do? No faith, no belief, no Jesus, no conditions?
Good luck on finding that in the Bible!

If it can be stopped. IT IS NOT ETERNAL...​

If it starts... IT WAS NEVER ETERNAL!

Strange... I never hear you make that inevitable conclusion!
​

I wonder why people can not see this.​

 

[Candidus]

First
Instead of worrying about what people thought about in the 3rd or 16th century, lets try to figure out what they meant in the early 1st century, since that is when the bible was written. And we have those words in our hands to study? Do you not think that would be the smarter thing to do?

Yes! Let's go to the First Century!

Not a single Early Church Father taught OSAS or Eternal Security!

We finally found agreement!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I think this is the point I am making.
Giving eternal life is a promise, it is not a thing.

If you think this, then I can not agree with you. Because again, it is a gift. A promise.

If God says you HAVE eternal life. Yet in reality, you may still die, Then you do not have eternal life. You have what would be called conditional life.

I can give you a ticket to fly to europe, but it only has value when you get on the plane and fly. If the flight never takes place, it is just a bit of paper. We have life today, which in Christ goes on forever.

Until it stops it is eternal. Or to put this another way, everyone will die, as far as we know, but equally everyone is eternal, until they die. Another aspect is when you jump off a building it is the impact with the ground that kills you not the fall.

The promise is the gift, the freedom from the second death. And this promise is conditional, it always has been, because God is a conditional God. If we see His face we will die. It we are not transformed, we will be destroyed when we see Him. It is this transformation that people are arguing about, or even if it is necessary. And part of this transformation is communion with Jesus. Without this we are nothing, just chaff.

You continue to make it all about you. (you need to buy the ticket, You need to get on the plane..etc etc

You need to make it all about God..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Bad logic. If its eternal, it cannot have a beginning either... so if you did not always have it before you existed, you can never get it!

Another one who did not read the three possible definitions of eternal

Please go read them and come back to me.. Eternal does not mean we have to have a beginning.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Your argument is based on how you feel... not Scripture fact.

Same could be said for you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The answer to the Bible and what it clearly and always says is....

"I don't care what the Bible has to say; I have a theory!"

Yes, you have a theory

Your theory does not fit with what the bible says.

I will stick to what the bible says

if Jesus tells me to search for food which endures forever. which I can take, and in doing so I will not die. That I can eat and drink this food and never hunger or thirst. That if I eat it. I will have eternal life. and be assured i will be raised BY HIM, not delivered TO HIM

Then I am going to take him at his word.