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Featured The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Zachary, Jan 6, 2020.

  1. GISMYS_7

    GISMYS_7 Well-Known Member

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    Those that are saved will want to do good works Not in order to be saved but because the ARE saved!!
     
  2. mailmandan

    mailmandan Well-Known Member

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    Amen! Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and also not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. We are saved FOR good works (Ephesians 2:10) and NOT BY good works.
     
  3. Candidus

    Candidus Well-Known Member

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    "For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children." Romans 8:14-16.

    The inverse is also true; what if you are not led by the Spirit of God? The question for anyone to ask themselves is... does the witness of the Spirit testify that I am a Child of God?
     
  4. mailmandan

    mailmandan Well-Known Member

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    Easy believism is a derogatory term used by opponents of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. (John 3:16; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 1:16 etc..) Such people will use licentiousness as a straw man argument and prefer hard believism, which is attached to performance based works salvation -- salvation by faith and works.

    There are people who may have made an emotional response and given mental assent to contents of the gospel, recited the sinner's prayer and were misled to believe they were saved (simply because they "recited" a prayer as if reciting those words automatically saved them, like it's a magical formula) yet such people remain unchanged apart from repentance/faith. (Acts 11:17,18; 20:21)

    Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ. (vs. 1)

    Amen! :)

    Amen! That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6) Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith. :(
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
    Eternally Grateful likes this.
  5. FollowHim

    FollowHim Well-Known Member

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    Easy believism is a name based on the idea
    "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"
    Acts 2:21

    Can we put conditions on the Lord how and why He saves us? No, but easy believists do.

    5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
    Rom 4:5

    I believe we are 100% reliant on Gods grace to turn us from being wicked into the righteous.

    4 Persistence in doing good, following the moral law
    3 Circumcision of the heart, a seal of righteousness
    2 Faith - grace giving righteousness
    1 Jesus and the cross

    It is Gods grace that covers our sin, that resolves our failures, that works on what needs to change.
    It is unbelief that stops at grace and does not see in faith the transformed, redeemed and justified believer and saint.
    Our seal is righteousness, walking in Gods ways because we love Him.
    Because we are transformed we persist in doing good and following the moral law, because that is our hearts.

    Without faith we have nothing.
    Listen to the believer who says Christ died for them, yet will hurt everyone around them.
    Yes like a doctor who give you medicine it stops the illness but you live as you choose to. Being in Christ is so much more than this, it is setting the prisoner free from emotional bondage to behaviour that is killing them into a place of freedom and loving expression of the glory Christ has brought them. Amen

    Now hard hearted people are touched by no one, because they care zero about anyone around them. Of course then Jesus and His ways bounce off like sponge bullets fired at a target. Nothing bad is going to happen, they have it sorted, heaven here we come........
     
  6. FollowHim

    FollowHim Well-Known Member

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    I like your picturing of the two groups. My fear is doubled that both are right and both wrong.
    Our dilemma is we are caught in inappropriate reactions to situations which we know are not of God but seem powerless to change. Equally we cannot be murdering maniacs cutting everybody up, but neither total righteousness or total evil work.

    The baptist and holiness movement compromise is to say grace covers our failures and sanctification covers our progress to righteous walking.
    In a world of prosperity and great times of relaxation and being able to use the internet, it is easy to think our isolation means things are static and simple. In truth we are either growing in grace towards God and His ways or we are sowing to the flesh and dying.

    The measure of it all is our own personal grace and judgementalism towards others. There is often trauma that guides our fears of some beliefs and over emphasis on others. So it is the trauma that needs healing before the emphasis changes. It is why I am fascinated how I am pictured either as a blessed believer sharing the good news or a demon possessed work of evil bringing condemnation.

    Emotional conclusions are powerful things, but also can be changed. They just signal where we are now in relation to the people and situation, but in faith God can take us to a new place. And the reason is because the resurrection and love of Christ is the emotional conclusion once alive in our hearts that conquers all. God bless you
     
  7. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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    I do not put conditions on God so once again your basis of understanding is based on a false understanding of what others believe
     
  8. FollowHim

    FollowHim Well-Known Member

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    I do not know what you believe, so are you saying you are an example of easy believism, so hold the mantle?

    There is an interesting point I have now seen. If I say I believe someone and have faith in them, not just a point they are making, or a position they are holding, but literally they are my all in all, nothing left out, then whatever they desire and call for I must follow.

    So if Jesus our all in all and says if we love Him, which is the point of putting our trust and faith in Him, we will obey His commandments, then that is what we are called to do, and tell others who put their all in Jesus to do likewise. As Paul says we are slaves to righteousness, but because of faith not justification. An interesting analogy of layers of belief, if obedience to the law comes below grace, then we can be lawless and saved, but if grace comes below the law of righteousness, then our heart is to walk righteously.

    Now it makes perfect sense if you hold as a Jew to be justified you had to obey the law, then that is a foundation, over which Jesus laid grace.
    Why this does not add up, is because the outcome is lawlessness in grace is Gods way and is the result of grace.

    Paul argues in Romans that no, Abraham was a man made righteous through faith not works, so it has always been a work of grace over which the law is laid. And this is why sacrifices for failure are part of sanctification, as is repentance for the believer when they stumble, because grace has washed them clean, but still the wrinkles and aberrations need working through. It is also why Israel though stiff necked and disobedient where given time and space to work things out, even when they saw God and all His wonders. Korah is still such a lesson on jealousy and power, which is resolved not by seeking the Lord, but by judgement and example. Even with Moses there is a period of grace, an opportunity to work things out, to back down. Why would one stand against Moses? Why would Korah be better? Who would want to stand this close to God?

    This seems to be the nature of pride, arrogance and domination. It starts small and grows, until grumbles seem to justify something new, as if this is a power game. Korahs argument was this
    "The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the LORD is with them. Why then do you set yourselves above the LORD's assembly?"
    Num 16:3

    Now after the Lord had swallowed Korah and his followers, family etc. and fire had burnt up the other levites, the people said this
    "You have killed the LORD's people"
    Num 16:41

    God declares He will kill them all, but Moses gets Aaron to put a censer between those with the plague and those not yet judged.
    14,700 people died.

    The Lord then instituted a staff for each tribe, and Aarons budded, had branches and produced almonds, to show Aaron was Gods chosen.
    It is something we tend to do all the time, see our place and want more, how dare so and so know more than me, get more honour etc.
    In the end the Israelites got the message

    We will die! We are lost, we are all lost
    Num 7:12

    Now this is grace at work through the law, not the law at work through grace. Grace works through our flaws, but we are called to obey and follow because that is life, our created reality. God bless you
     
  9. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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    you know

    1. your right you do not know me, which is odd concerning all of the conversations we have had
    2. You claim you do not know what I am saying then judge me as an easy believist and tell me to hold the mantle

    you have problems
     
  10. FollowHim

    FollowHim Well-Known Member

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    I asked you if you were an easy believist as you claimed I was miss appropriating them as you where implying you were one.
    Now it is semantics, but this is how you used your language.

    As I have repeatedly emphasised this is a forum for discussion of positions, not defining things as if there is one definitive definition of anything. It is part of the reason for discussion, to clarify different ideas, what really works and what fails.

    It helps me to see grace in Gods approach, and the law and its beauty. It is no minor issue bringing the two together, and in love we often struggle even in our lives to honour and live to the glory of our King. But that is our calling, as Paul and Peter encourage us to do.

    God bless you.

    And I hope you do not feel judged by my, for I cannot judge you, I was just clarifying your sentences.

    Easy believism is an approach to faith, that is clearly shown in churches, whether people want to admit or not. On forums converts have declared clearly they have been converted out of such situations. But the defence or denial of such things, suggests people identify themselves as representatives of such positions, and so their view on faith should also be taken as a definitive position. This obviously miss-understands how discussions work. God bless you
     
  11. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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    You have not changed a bit

    you still define things according to whatever you think

    maybe one day you will define things the way they are. And in doing so stop accusing others

    I never stated I was an easy believer, that is your accusation, which is false.
     
  12. FollowHim

    FollowHim Well-Known Member

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    I am glad we cleared that up then. God bless you.
    The great thing about debates and discussions is they are open ended, and we share how we see things.
    You will begin to realise soon that everyone sees things in their own unique way, so our differences are not so much a hinderance as a celebration of diversity.

    The theme of this thread is very important. For me the important issue is what is sin and what is holiness. Layered on top of this is how this very subject causes people such upset and defensiveness, yet in Jesus we have been set free, for there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

    If this is a spiritual reality, and peoples consciences are clean, then you would expect Amen, halleluyah for the Lord.
    But there arises a host of people who say God accepts me, how dare you say I have problems and issues I need to resolve.

    But in these discussions actually it is our own personal walks we are sharing and our struggles in various areas. If this raises issues that need resolution Jesus lays the healing solution, repentance and faith in accepting the forgiveness through the cross that He provides. I have become more convinced linear thought processes and emotional conclusions rule our lives. As such God changes both our logical conclusions and our emotional conclusions to bring glory unto Him. And this is less about theology and more about love and caring for those around us in a free and open fashion. God bless you
     
  13. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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    The theme of this thread is to destroy grace thinking, and make everyone who claims we can not earn or maintain salvation easy believists,

    the thread from what I have seen has failed to do this
     
  14. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    I think they are trying to say "easy believe-ists" skipped Acts.
     
  15. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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    What is an easy believist? Since they claim anyone who denies works as a means of earning salvation is an easy believists.
     
  16. FollowHim

    FollowHim Well-Known Member

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    By this definition I am an easy believist. My personal adventure is to risk all and engage in love and sharing.

    If by this Jesus is lifted up and people encouraged, amen. Paul says we are a sweet fragrance to those who are being saved. Purity and holiness are part of our lives, yet for some this is like poison. Little wonder God's word is so dry and bitter, and not life and rejoicing.

    Scripture talks about persecution and not giving in to sin. If some laugh at this idea because sin has never been cleansed, the conversations are going to be very short. ... God bless you
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
  17. FollowHim

    FollowHim Well-Known Member

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    you have problems

    I have both problems in myself and solutions in Jesus. That is why I desire to share and praise Jesus's wonderful name.
    When christians faced Saul there was great anxiousness because this man could get the authorities to turn ones life upside down.

    But this enemy became a friend. A great apostle and leader of believers, a shinning example of Christ on this earth.
    We desire in Christ to grow and become like Him, it is our daily walk, the wonder of glory unto glory.

    So however you respond I wish you well, God bless you
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
  18. mailmandan

    mailmandan Well-Known Member

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    Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ (vs. 1).
     
  19. mailmandan

    mailmandan Well-Known Member

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    Works of merit includes works in general. Salvation is by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and not by grace through faith and works. Your premise in regards to "obedience to the will of God" culminates in works salvation.

    There is a difference between obedience to the will of God IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

    AND obedience to the will of God AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
     
  20. FollowHim

    FollowHim Well-Known Member

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    Are you still agreeing with EG though I know his antagonism against your positions?
    I remember you used to talk about false teachers very emphatically, have you mellowed in the grace God has given you?
     
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