Grace is NOT unmerited favor!
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Randy Kluth
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What is so disrespectful of you is that you changed my words to confuse the meaning of what I did say. I said: "So *in effect* we are choosing to do good works all the time in order to qualify for Salvation. But we only produce good works out of this new nature by electing to receive the new nature from Christ 1st!"
Before I answer any criticism from you, you need to quote me properly, to clarify just what it is you're complaining about!
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. I do worry about using the wrong words sometimes, knowing that some will misconstrue how I'm applying a particular word. Some words I just need to stay away from in certain environments!
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I don't know what you mean? Of course we choose to opt for doing good all the time when we convert to Christ! That's why I repented of my sins when I wandered away from God. He convicted me of my sins, and I realized that the only way I could stop sinning was to give my whole life to Him.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
No, I'm trying to untangle the knot created by those who think no works are involved and those who think works are involved. There are genuine Christians on both sides, and they just haven't figured out the language to use to describe it. I'm obviously not doing much better!
Again, let me be clear. I do *not* believe in self-justification. I do not believe our works, Christian or otherwise, can ever earn our Salvation! We come to Christ to receive a new nature--something we cannot earn, but must ask for in the sincerity of a repentant heart.
On the other hand, to deny works are involved in the process of getting saved is to fail to understand the difference between self-justifying works and works that involve choosing salvation.
It is indeed confusing, but some people just need to say it right. We actually do participate in our own salvation only in the sense we choose to accept the conditions. If we don't choose to repent, we don't get saved--that simple!
We accept that whatever we can do without the new nature has already been condemned by God and cannot earn salvation. And so we must accept that we must agree to give up our own ways for Christ's ways--otherwise, lacking the new nature, we can only be condemned.
This is a choice for both Christ's righteousness and for a new nature that exhibits Christ's works all the time. It is a choice *for* good works--good works that are produced by the new nature that only Christ can give us.
In choosing for good works we actually acquire the new nature by which we may exhibit those good works. This is how good works play a role in our salvation. It is the thing we aspire to but must depend on Christ to exhibit through the new nature he gives us.
I doubt you can ever accept this formula because you don't seem to be willing to get past the language divide. It would put you into the same position I'm in, which is making myself subject to misinterpretation and opposition.
@Randy Kluth and @justbyfaith
The keys to salvation are repentance and making Jesus the Lord of your life. He'll take it from there.
The keys to salvation are repentance and making Jesus the Lord of your life. He'll take it from there.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
It may be a little different for me, having been raised up a Christian. When I gave my life to Christ, I had already known Christ. I just had to realize that he wanted *all of me.* I was failing because I had reserved certain parts of my life for sin. When I gave all of myself to him, I acquired full control, because I then yielded to my Christian nature, and was no longer divided.
I don't know what it's like coming to Christ for the 1st time. Sorry--I don't. But I do know the key is to accept the gift of a new nature that Christ wants us to live by--not a set of rules or a list of good works, but a new nature.
I strongly believe that nonChristians can do good before they are saved. There is no special grace needed to obey God--it is built into who God made us to be. We are made in God's image--we can live in God's image. All we have to do is respond to God's voice inside our conscience, and we can do it. God said to Cain that he could overcome sin if he wanted. No special grace there!
But it does require a special grace in order to have the new nature and to naturally want the good. I agree with you there. But the initial choice to accept Christ is part of the old man, which obviously can make the good decision to embrace Christ.
We can legitimately opt for receiving the new nature from Christ without being born again prior. We are able to make good choices even before we are saved.
We do opt to do good works, but even more, we opt to have the good nature by which we naturally want to do the good works all the time, and to *be good!* All this happens *before* we are saved!
I grew up in the Church; however I wasn't saved for 30 years! And I did a lot of good, but in my own power.
Yes learn of Him, go to Him and He will teach you, really. Sin will no longer have any consequence and one for you.
Mat_5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
See you do sin like every one else.
You did NOT answer what Jesus freed us from. Be brave and honest and tell me what you read in the two scriptures I gave you.
The consequence of Sin, be brave accept grace why do you despise it so much??? Too much bible not enough Christ. Any one who says he does not sin is a liar and therefore a sinner.
You cannot escape it, none will boast not even you.
Now you are not brave enough to even tell the truth and be honest.
Let's look at what the subject is.
John 8:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. (Free from what? SIN!!!)
1 John 3:5
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. (Not condemnation while we still sin!)
Seeing as you obviously are hiding in dishonesty and need to be taught, here is another one to help free your mind from false teachings. Note, the first verse has a condition to no condemnation that you have overlooked; possibly a faulty modern Bible.
Romans 8:1-9
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
You don't need to answer with another lie; just study this.
That was before His death you are living in the past, why dont you do as you said, and "go and learn of Him" instead of studying it gets men onto trouble. Just look at this forum, that is teh consequence of too much study too much bible and not enough,
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
and so many do not have His life
Rev_3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
and so few will let Him in.
Prophecy also says what the Messiah will be doing, and it isn't making a mockery of God's holiness.
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness
NOTHING about freeing us from condemnation so we can sin with impunity.
The point of that passage in Romans 4 is to teach the justification that comes through faith and has nothing to do with works. And if justification has nothing to do with our works, then works don't play a part.
And so works justify us before man but not before God Who sees the heart, Who knows whether we've trusted Him, sought Him, Who knows those who are His children. Who have been justified by faith, and now are justified away from sin, being a new creation, born of God.
Much love!
What do you want to sin to impunity, no one does, but you are not perfect you can go on by denying it but you cant hide behind scripture. Do you even know what sin is??? You know that bit about, being honest,,
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