How should the church service be structured

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BreadOfLife

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But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you...
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
...not by the pope, but the original Apostles.

....which foundation the RCC has ripped apart with commentary.
Ummmmmm. . . WHERE is Sola Scriptura in that verse??
WHERE does it say that the Scriptures are our "SOLE Authority??

It doesn't, Einstein - and that's your biggest problem.
YOU bet ALL of your chips on a 16th century man-made invention that has NO place in the very Scriptures YOU purport to be your "Sole" Authority . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
....this verse is extremely upsetting to most status quo Christians, which depicts Jesus having a God right now while he is in heaven.
That's just because YOU don't know how to properly read Scripture and discern its truth.

In light of your blasphemous charge that Jesus is NOT God - explain the following verse:
Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

This should be interesting . . .
 
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Illuminator

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RE-WRITING JUDAISM
The biblical sense of the word "memorial" is not the same as it is in English. (see Webster's Dictionary)
The “sacrifice” is the “memorial” or “reminder.”. It is not a mere commemoration of a past event, but a reality made in the present time. In this verse, “remembrance” refers to a sacrifice, not just a symbolic memorial. So Jesus’ command to offer the memorial “in remembrance” of Him demonstrates that the memorial offering is indeed a sacrifice currently offered. It is a re-presentation of the actual sacrifice made present in time. It is as if the curtain of history is drawn and Calvary is made present to us.
We see proof of how the word "memorial" is used in Numbers 10:10
Also at your times of rejoicing-your appointed festivals and New Moon feasts-you are to sound the trumpets over your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, and they will be a memorial for you before your God. I am the LORD your God."
The “sacrifice” is the “memorial” or “reminder.”. Here's more proof:

Lev. 24:7 You must put pure frankincense on each row, and it will become a memorial portion for the bread, a gift to the Lord.
The word “memorial” in Hebrew in the sacrificial sense is “azkarah” which means to actually make present.
Lev. 2:2 Then he must bring it to the sons of Aaron, the priests, and the priest must scoop out from there a handful of its choice wheat flour and some of its olive oil in addition to all of its frankincense, and the priest must offer its memorial portion up in smoke on the altar—it is a gift of a soothing aroma to the Lord.

Lev.2:9 Then the priest must take up from the grain offering its memorial portion and offer it up in smoke on the altar—it is a gift of a soothing aroma to the Lord.

Lev.2:16 Then the priest must offer its memorial portion up in smoke—some of its crushed bits, some of its olive oil, in addition to all of its frankincense—it is a gift to the Lord.;

Also, Lev.5:12; Lev. 6:5; Num.5:26 where “azkarah” refers to sacrifices that are currently offered and thus present in time). Jesus’ instruction to offer the bread and wine (which He changed into His body and blood) as a “memorial offering” demonstrates that the offering of His body and blood is made present in time over and over again.

The biblical use of the word "memorial" is much deeper than the English definition.

Here is more proof:

Mal. 1:10-11 – Jesus’ command to his apostles to offer His memorial sacrifice of bread and wine which becomes His body and blood fulfills the prophecy that God would reject the Jewish sacrifices and receive a pure sacrifice offered in every place. This pure sacrifice of Christ is sacramentally re-presented from the rising of the sun to its setting in every place, as Malachi prophesied.

11 For from the east to the west my name will be great among the nations. Incense and pure offerings will be offered in my name everywhere, for my name will be great among the nations,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.
?pure offerings" does not mean a mere commemoration but a past event made present. It's a mystery, not a math problem. It transcends human reason but doesn't go against it either. Christians have faith that Jesus multiplied food for multitudes, but some lack supernatural faith required to accept the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. It's there for the asking and cannot be received by arguing in forums.

Objectors are forced to change the biblical usage of the word "memorial", thus re-writing Judaism.


 
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Marymog

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The RCC promotes literal drinking of blood.

How ghastly.
I’m truly truly in good company since Christ and the Apostles were “ghastly” and apparently Catholic

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood,
 

BreadOfLife

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That is akin to the ghastly taste of the chalky wafer that the RCC cooks somehow, then saying it is Christ's literal body that came out of the industrial press.
Once again - since you refuse our Lord in the Eucharist - why should you concern yourself with the taste??

YOU should be more concerned with how you will answer Him when He asks you WHY you refused Him . . .
 
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DPMartin

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Marksman and I have been looking into the value (or not) of the structure of the typical church service, in which a central leader delivers a sermon. I'm hesitant to dismiss the pastor, the sermon, and most of the churches in America and across the world. But I do take seriously the point marksman raised, that sermons are often weak. And I do think there could be important changes made in the structure of the service, to make ministry more efficient.

If you have any ideas, I'd love to hear them. Or, if you have an experience that may contribute to understanding the good or bad in this, please speak up!

I've had a long and varied experience in church, but of course, I'm limited by my own upbringing and experience. My own experience with the traditional sermon has not been that good on many occasion. But I don't wish to place the blame on pastors, who have simply been raised up and taught by a system that placed too much weight on them as an individual. See Exodus 18:25.

As I said elsewhere, as the main paid minister in a church, the pastor is expected to do the business of the church as well as provide the ministry of the word. This kind of administration is more than what I see the Bible as specifying. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit gives a diversity of gifts as He wishes.

So let me know what you think?


who said there were rules for church services, God or man?
 

Truther

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Once again - since you refuse our Lord in the Eucharist - why should you concern yourself with the taste??

YOU should be more concerned with how you will answer Him when He asks you WHY you refused Him . . .
I don't like chalk taste.

Now, if they could make Jesus taste like a candy bar, I could eat that.

Could you order that for me?

Let's call it the "body of Jesus" bar.

Forget the manufactured chalk wafer.
 

Truther

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I’m truly truly in good company since Christ and the Apostles were “ghastly” and apparently Catholic

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood,
Question....does the blood of Jesus that is ingested get digested?
 

Truther

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That's just because YOU don't know how to properly read Scripture and discern its truth.

In light of your blasphemous charge that Jesus is NOT God - explain the following verse:
Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

This should be interesting . . .


12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
....this verse is extremely upsetting to most status quo Christians, which depicts Jesus having a God right now while he is in heaven.



In which the verse upset you too. You saw the verse as blasphemy.

Fact is, the son of God, which was made God by default when he was raised from the DEAD, was afterward made an omnipresent quickening spirit to be fully indwelled of every bit of what his God consists of, bodily.(Col 2:9)

Now, Jesus is God by default, so he, which is a human with his God "Fathering" us from inside his body, is allowed to address his God as his God.
 

Truther

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Ummmmmm. . . WHERE is Sola Scriptura in that verse??
WHERE does it say that the Scriptures are our "SOLE Authority??

It doesn't, Einstein - and that's your biggest problem.
YOU bet ALL of your chips on a 16th century man-made invention that has NO place in the very Scriptures YOU purport to be your "Sole" Authority . . .
The foundation is your sole authority.

You guys have built your doctrine from peeling paint.
 

Truther

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Nope - I don't speak in tongues, that's not my gift.
You see, Einstein - The Bible tells us that not ALL of the body have ALL of the same gifts.

1 Cor. 12:27-31
Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. Are ALL apostles? Are ALL prophets? Are ALL teachers? Do ALL work miracles? Do ALL possess gifts of healing? DO ALL SPEAK IN TONGUES? Do ALL interpret? But earnestly desire the higher gifts.

STUDY your Bible . . .
You skipped Acts fella!

You tossed it out and went straight to the Epistles(letters to those that obeyed Acts).

You are a mail thief!

Worse than that, you stole the saints mail and gave it to others just like you.

Despicable!
 

Truther

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In other word - you simply cannot refute the historical fact that it was the Catholic Church who copied the Scriptures down through the centuries.

That's what I thought . . .
The RCC has a ghastly history.

It is best you don't bring it up, but enjoy your modern commentary coming from the Vatican.

They were sadists, not just the great whore of Revelation.
 

BreadOfLife

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12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
....this verse is extremely upsetting to most status quo Christians, which depicts Jesus having a God right now while he is in heaven.

In which the verse upset you too. You saw the verse as blasphemy.

Fact is, the son of God, which was made God by default when he was raised from the DEAD, was afterward made an omnipresent quickening spirit to be fully indwelled of every bit of what his God consists of, bodily.(Col 2:9)

Now, Jesus is God by default, so he, which is a human with his God "Fathering" us from inside his body, is allowed to address his God as his God.
I'm not "upset" by the verse you presented. Scripture doesn't upset me.
In fact - I'm laughing out loud because you don't understand it. Ummmm, were you going to explain Heb. 1:8 - or would you simply like to concede defeat??

I'm also noting your additional blasphemy in stating that there are TWO Gods.
Jesus didn't "become" God at the Resurrection. He ALWAYS WAS God (John 1:1).

TWO perversions in ONE post.
Good job . . .
 
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BreadOfLife

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The foundation is your sole authority.

You guys have built your doctrine from peeling paint.
Showing your ignorance yet again . . .

Scripture is authoritative - but NOWHERE does Scripture itself claim to be our "sole" Authority. That is a man-made invention of your 16th century Protestant Fathers.

No, son - the Bible tells us that our FINAL earthly Authority is Christ's CHURCH:

Matt 16:18-19

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a letter from us."

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."


Nothing like Biblical truth to disprove Sola Scriptura . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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You skipped Acts fella!
You tossed it out and went straight to the Epistles(letters to those that obeyed Acts).
You are a mail thief!
Worse than that, you stole the saints mail and gave it to others just like you.
Despicable!
And NOWHERE does the Book of Acts make the claim that ALL followers of Christ MUST speak in tongues.

Scripture doesn't contradict itself, so quoting 1 Cor. 12:27-31 doesn't contradict ANYTHING in Acts, Einstein. The only thing "despicable" is your abject ignorance.

STUDY your Bible . . .
 

quietthinker

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And NOWHERE does the Book of Acts make the claim that ALL followers of Christ MUST speak in tongues.

Scripture doesn't contradict itself, so quoting 1 Cor. 12:27-31 doesn't contradict ANYTHING in Acts, Einstein. The only thing "despicable" is your abject ignorance.

STUDY your Bible . . .
The responses you guys shoot off to each other are like those of unruly children!
 

BreadOfLife

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Ever try Lawry's on your Christ cookie?
It may help you digest the King of Kings better too.
When you defecate Him the next day, do you have a solemn time on the pot, like when you ate Him?
Yup - I HOPE they have popcorn at the Judgement.
Watching YOURS out to be fun . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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The responses you guys shoot off to each other are like those of unruly children!
No - I always respond with Scripture or some other historical or linguistic roof.
@Truther's posts, on the other hand are usually immature taunts or sophomoric toilet remarks . . .
 
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BreadOfLife

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The RCC has a ghastly history.
It is best you don't bring it up, but enjoy your modern commentary coming from the Vatican.
They were sadists, not just the great whore of Revelation.
In other words - you cannot refute the fact that it was the Catholic Church that copied the Scriptures down through history.
Which brings up an interesting point.

Can you quote Matt. 6:13?
Please post what your Bible says it is.