WHAT IS THE SIN UNTO DEATH?

[amadeus]

Neither of us believe that. Not in the way you are saying.

Actually, I do believe that, but not in a way that you agree with. The one born of God cannot sin. That's all of us who are born of God. The new man. The one born of God.

Much love!

But then for as long as you remain double minded which part in running the show? You get to choose, do you not?

 

[amadeus]

Yes, never quench the Spirit. That is a command. So we should practice what we preach.

Amen!

 

[marks]

But then for as long as you remain double minded which part in running the show? You get to choose, do you not?

I'm not sure what you mean.

Or, maybe I do know. If we are coddling the flesh mind, then we are being double-minded, is that you you mean?

Let me go back to the passage . . .

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

OK, so I'll correct myself . . . the double minded man, here, is the one who does not fully believe that God will keep His promise. And that man should not expect to receive from God.

8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

The one who isn't trusting God will take things into their own hands, and allow the flesh mind to express itself. Double minded - in truth! Both the mind of Christ and the mind of the flesh trying to rule the roost!

Purify your hearts, ye double minded.

How do we do that, would you say?

Much love!

 

[marks]

And then what did these words of John the Baptist mean?

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

Certainly John the Baptist knew that his ministry was one of regression, as he took the attention that he had focused onto himself, and now was to refocus it onto Jesus. "I am not the Christ", and, "Behold, the Lamb of God Who bears away the sin of the world."

John didn't save them, Jesus is the Savior.

We can take the example into our lives, knowing that we have an old man, and we are a new man. The new man, which is created in God's pattern, righteous and holy, we're to put this one on, and put off the old man.

That mind of the flesh, this must decrease, the mind of Christ, this must increase.

The old man is not our life, Jesus, in the new man, is our life.

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

1 John 5:16 Say's to me that, there IS a point of no return for some. NOT that God would not yet, still extend His Amazing Grace grace to a repentant sinner but, if their consciences have been eroded over time, I can see why one should not waste their precious prayers for someone who will not receive. Must keep our hearts softened!!!

Interesting. 1 Cor. 5:5 say's to give the sinning believers "up to Satan"...so at least their souls would be saved even if they die physically so, was it God who struck them dead or did He just simply allow Satan to kill them, I wonder. Then I think of Priscilla and Aquila...

I think "sin unto death" is willful and ongoing... sin without repentance of any kind, or IOW - "living IN sin" rather than "IN Christ/The Spirit", carnal, fleshy, or perhaps it can be when someone's conscience's become 'seared' and there is no turning back?
God calls His children to be holy (1 Peter 1:16), and He corrects us when we sin. We aren't "punished" for our sin in the sense of being eternally separated from God, but we are disciplined. "The Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son" (Hebrews 12:6)."

So, I suppose...REJOICE when you are being chastened by God because, if He did not love us, He would not chasten and test us.

1 John 5:16 is a tough one for me, and I know I am not understanding it perfectly...yet!
But, I cannot see Christians being sent to, whatever Hell is, for "falling" but not "living" in sin. IOW - STOP, repent and, move on in growing in The Lord.

Sometimes it seems to me that, sin itself is not dealt with inside the Church as it should be. Too many make assumptions (thus, judge) and not enough will bother to get to know you personally. Many are gossips and believe every word.
The Church is about as broken as the world IMO.
God help us all!

So, anybody like to chime in about 1 John 5:16 specifically the sins "unto and not unto death".

Thanks
Nancy

they had an actual law of sin and death then, so a "sin unto death" would most likely be in accordance with that prolly?

 

[amadeus]

I'm not sure what you mean.

Or, maybe I do know. If we are coddling the flesh mind, then we are being double-minded, is that you you mean?

Let me go back to the passage . . .

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

OK, so I'll correct myself . . . the double minded man, here, is the one who does not fully believe that God will keep His promise. And that man should not expect to receive from God.

As long we receive a temptation in our mind after we have met Jesus , that is a 2nd part of our mind, the old part which ruled the roost in us while we were dead in sin. It wants to regain its dominant position in us. When we have overcome all temptations so that it no longer assails us at all and we no longer ever has any desire to succumb to temptations taking them that next step back into sin, we would no longer be double minded. We will be an overcomer like Jesus. As we grow closer to God, stronger in Him and weaker in us, then He is increasing in us and we [the old man of us] are decreasing in us. This is the right direction. The wrong direction is when God is losing ground in us against the temptations. The middle ground in which probably too many people work is a terrible place to be where God will not tolerate us indefinitely. If at the end of our course [our allotted time] we are in the middle, in that lukewarm place, God will spit us out.

A person may not yet have overcome every single obstacle yet, but if he but he is progressing winning more battles than he is losing against the ways of the old man then along that is right overcoming pathway.

But, we cannot win those battles all by ourselves. This is why not quenching the Spirit is so important. The Spirit in us, the Holy Spirit that is, never loses battles, but when we quench the Holy Spirit in us and move along on our own, we will lose which means we will sin again... Too much of this and like the children in wilderness, we will be shut out from our Promise!

8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

The one who isn't trusting God will take things into their own hands, and allow the flesh mind to express itself. Double minded - in truth! Both the mind of Christ and the mind of the flesh trying to rule the roost!

Purify your hearts, ye double minded.

How do we do that, would you say?

Much love!

We do that by continuing to ask for help to Not quench the Spirit and to Not let ourselves fall out of love with Truth so as Not to be led into delusion. Everyday talk to God and ask Him to help in these things. The battles continue, but when we are not deluded and when we are not quenching the Spirit we by the Holy Spirit in us are winning every one of the battles. No partial or halfway measures.

Remember this taught to me by a man of God when I was brand new to the Holy Spirit:

It is hard to live for God easy; it is easy to live for God hard!

Jesus went through the same battles as a man of flesh, but he never lost any battles at all. But He did have an advantage. But God will take up the slack for us if we don't quit and if we keep on asking for help and we continue along this Way!

 

[amadeus]

Certainly John the Baptist knew that his ministry was one of regression, as he took the attention that he had focused onto himself, and now was to refocus it onto Jesus. "I am not the Christ", and, "Behold, the Lamb of God Who bears away the sin of the world."

John didn't save them, Jesus is the Savior.

We can take the example into our lives, knowing that we have an old man, and we are a new man. The new man, which is created in God's pattern, righteous and holy, we're to put this one on, and put off the old man.

That mind of the flesh, this must decrease, the mind of Christ, this must increase.

The old man is not our life, Jesus, in the new man, is our life.

Much love!

John the Baptist became the example of what was coming. He lost his physical head. A new Head was becoming available, that Head being Jesus and we being the Body of Christ. We need to lose our own head, which has been our boss while we were immersed in sin. We must allow Jesus to always be our leader, our Head. Jesus completed the work necessary to become the Head. Jesus is ready to attach Himself as the Head of a new Body, but each part in that new Body must be ready. At the start we come as we are, but then before we are ready some work on us by the Holy Spirit must be done:

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48

"For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" Eph 4:12-13

 

[CharismaticLady]

@Waiting on him

I thought you would like to see the sentence a murderer (Eddie Ray Routh) received for killing a killer (Chris Kyle). Chris Kyle's funeral had to be held at the Cowboy stadium.

Click here:
Eddie Ray Routh | Texas Prison Inmates | The Texas Tribune

 

[CadyandZoe]

1 John 5:16 Say's to me that, there IS a point of no return for some. NOT that God would not yet, still extend His Amazing Grace grace to a repentant sinner but, if their consciences have been eroded over time, I can see why one should not waste their precious prayers for someone who will not receive. Must keep our hearts softened!!!

Interesting. 1 Cor. 5:5 say's to give the sinning believers "up to Satan"...so at least their souls would be saved even if they die physically so, was it God who struck them dead or did He just simply allow Satan to kill them, I wonder. Then I think of Priscilla and Aquila...

I think "sin unto death" is willful and ongoing... sin without repentance of any kind, or IOW - "living IN sin" rather than "IN Christ/The Spirit", carnal, fleshy, or perhaps it can be when someone's conscience's become 'seared' and there is no turning back?
God calls His children to be holy (1 Peter 1:16), and He corrects us when we sin. We aren't "punished" for our sin in the sense of being eternally separated from God, but we are disciplined. "The Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son" (Hebrews 12:6)."

So, I suppose...REJOICE when you are being chastened by God because, if He did not love us, He would not chasten and test us.

1 John 5:16 is a tough one for me, and I know I am not understanding it perfectly...yet!
But, I cannot see Christians being sent to, whatever Hell is, for "falling" but not "living" in sin. IOW - STOP, repent and, move on in growing in The Lord.

Sometimes it seems to me that, sin itself is not dealt with inside the Church as it should be. Too many make assumptions (thus, judge) and not enough will bother to get to know you personally. Many are gossips and believe every word.
The Church is about as broken as the world IMO.
God help us all!

So, anybody like to chime in about 1 John 5:16 specifically the sins "unto and not unto death".

Thanks
Nancy

I like reading your posts and your threads because they raise interesting, relevant points with a bit of humility and insight.

Here is my take on 1 John 5:13-16.

13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John is addressing a pressing question, common among Christians. According to the Gospel, Jesus saves. We get that. What we really want to know is, "will Jesus save ME in particular." And it isn't a simple matter of giving mental ascent to the doctrine. So, John says, "I'm writing this to you who believe so that YOU may know that YOU, in particular, have eternal life. John is speaking to those who lack confidence in their eternal status.

14 This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.

This is John's confidence building answer. God has promised to grant eternal life to all sinners who repent with contrition and honesty, and become disciples of Jesus Christ, walking in the way he taught us. Asking for forgiveness, and pardon, and restoration, and eternal life are all according to God's will. And if we ask God for these things, under those conditions, then we can be sure we have them.

16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death.

Here John helps those who can't bring themselves to ask God for forgiveness on their own. In rare cases, someone might say, "I don't deserve his love or forgiveness. Will you pray with me? or, "will you pray for me?" John gives us permission to pray for them, giving us assurance that God will respond to such a prayer. Some people are so filled with self-loathing that they just can't take the first step without help.

There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

Here John is speaking to the case whereby a person has decided to reject the whole idea of God, religion, and everything. Jesus refereed to this attitude as the unforgivable sin. Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit isn't merely calling the Holy Spirit a liar. It is that; but the sin leading to death, is any act of rebellion that signals an irreconcilable hostility against God, a willful antipathy to God, or even a complete lack of interest.

John makes no promises with regard to these people. We can pray for them out of love and concern, but we can't have the same confidence with these prayers that we have for our other prayers.

Thanks again for your posts. I enjoy reading them.

 

[Enoch111]

they had an actual law of sin and death then, so a "sin unto death" would most likely be in accordance with that prolly?

The "law of sin and death" was simply expressed as "The wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23). Which simply means that the penalty for sin is death (and in fact includes both the first and the second deaths). This is the law of consequences.

"The sin unto death" is strictly applicable to Christians who persist in their sin(s) and refuse to repent. That produces premature physical death, but not the second death.

 

[bbyrd009]

The "law of sin and death" was simply expressed as "The wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23). Which simply means that the penalty for sin is death (and in fact includes both the first and the second deaths). This is the law of consequences.

"The sin unto death" is strictly applicable to Christians who persist in their sin(s) and refuse to repent. That produces premature physical death, but not the second death.

swing/miss, but ty

 

[bbyrd009]

But then for as long as you remain double minded which part in running the show? You get to choose, do you not?

yup!
Weapon of Choice

 

[Nancy]

I like reading your posts and your threads because they raise interesting, relevant points with a bit of humility and insight.

Here is my take on 1 John 5:13-16.

13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John is addressing a pressing question, common among Christians. According to the Gospel, Jesus saves. We get that. What we really want to know is, "will Jesus save ME in particular." And it isn't a simple matter of giving mental ascent to the doctrine. So, John says, "I'm writing this to you who believe so that YOU may know that YOU, in particular, have eternal life. John is speaking to those who lack confidence in their eternal status.

14 This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.

This is John's confidence building answer. God has promised to grant eternal life to all sinners who repent with contrition and honesty, and become disciples of Jesus Christ, walking in the way he taught us. Asking for forgiveness, and pardon, and restoration, and eternal life are all according to God's will. And if we ask God for these things, under those conditions, then we can be sure we have them.

16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death.

Here John helps those who can't bring themselves to ask God for forgiveness on their own. In rare cases, someone might say, "I don't deserve his love or forgiveness. Will you pray with me? or, "will you pray for me?" John gives us permission to pray for them, giving us assurance that God will respond to such a prayer. Some people are so filled with self-loathing that they just can't take the first step without help.

There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

Here John is speaking to the case whereby a person has decided to reject the whole idea of God, religion, and everything. Jesus refereed to this attitude as the unforgivable sin. Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit isn't merely calling the Holy Spirit a liar. It is that; but the sin leading to death, is any act of rebellion that signals an irreconcilable hostility against God, a willful antipathy to God, or even a complete lack of interest.

John makes no promises with regard to these people. We can pray for them out of love and concern, but we can't have the same confidence with these prayers that we have for our other prayers.

Thanks again for your posts. I enjoy reading them.

Thank you!
A very kind thing to say
It all really boils down to faith...true blue, unadulterated complete faith, Amen!

"John makes no promises with regard to these people. We can pray for them out of love and concern, but we can't have the same confidence with these prayers that we have for our other prayers."

Understood. And, I will say that I do love all of your post and agree with it all as well, how bout that?!!

"Some people are so filled with self-loathing that they just can't take the first step without help."

Oh yes, for sure! We can do a number on ourselves even without Satan's influence. Self loathing can be difficult to come out of, but then there is nothing impossible for our God

Thank you again @CadyandZoe for your great reply and kind words.
All In His Name,
Nancy

 

[amadeus]

yup!
Weapon of Choice

Actually there a lot of switch hitters going back and forth between hot and cold. Is it similar to an honest roulette wheel being a pure game of chance or is it possible to choose to shift the heavier weights onto the hot side of the scale?

 

[bbyrd009]

Actually there a lot of switch hitters going back and forth between hot and cold. Is it similar to an honest roulette wheel being a pure game of chance or is it possible to choose to shift the heavier weights onto the hot side of the scale?

wish i knew

 

[amadeus]

wish i knew

God does know, which is why for everyone who does not [like you and me] it is a very good idea to get on His side and stay there.

 

[bbyrd009]

God does know, which is why for everyone who does not [like you and me] it is a very good idea to get on His side and stay there.

weird to me, but hot and cold both suggest a like a lack of humility, for some reason? So i guess i need better defs for those prolly

 

[amadeus]

weird to me, but hot and cold both suggest a like a lack of humility, for some reason? So i guess i need better defs for those prolly

"And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein." Isaiah 35:8

Going down the highway too close to the right or the left edge is dangerous as there likely to be is a bottomless pit or an unfathomable polluted sea on either side. So looking at it like that it seems that it would be better to stick always to the very middle of the road, but when I mentioned hot and cold I had in mind this verse:

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." Rev 3:15-16

Should we from that presume that the middle is evil while either cold or hot is good? Probably the lack of humility comes into play when we choose hot or cold or middle ourselves:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

So then don't choose which part of the road to walk because we as carnal men are blind. Alone or following another blind man the result will be equally problematic.

"O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!" Ps 119:5

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Matt 13:13-15

"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." Rev 3:18

 

[CharismaticLady]

I like reading your posts and your threads because they raise interesting, relevant points with a bit of humility and insight.

Here is my take on 1 John 5:13-16.

13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John is addressing a pressing question, common among Christians. According to the Gospel, Jesus saves. We get that. What we really want to know is, "will Jesus save ME in particular." And it isn't a simple matter of giving mental ascent to the doctrine. So, John says, "I'm writing this to you who believe so that YOU may know that YOU, in particular, have eternal life. John is speaking to those who lack confidence in their eternal status.

14 This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.

This is John's confidence building answer. God has promised to grant eternal life to all sinners who repent with contrition and honesty, and become disciples of Jesus Christ, walking in the way he taught us. Asking for forgiveness, and pardon, and restoration, and eternal life are all according to God's will. And if we ask God for these things, under those conditions, then we can be sure we have them.

16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death.

Here John helps those who can't bring themselves to ask God for forgiveness on their own. In rare cases, someone might say, "I don't deserve his love or forgiveness. Will you pray with me? or, "will you pray for me?" John gives us permission to pray for them, giving us assurance that God will respond to such a prayer. Some people are so filled with self-loathing that they just can't take the first step without help.

There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

Here John is speaking to the case whereby a person has decided to reject the whole idea of God, religion, and everything. Jesus refereed to this attitude as the unforgivable sin. Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit isn't merely calling the Holy Spirit a liar. It is that; but the sin leading to death, is any act of rebellion that signals an irreconcilable hostility against God, a willful antipathy to God, or even a complete lack of interest.

John makes no promises with regard to these people. We can pray for them out of love and concern, but we can't have the same confidence with these prayers that we have for our other prayers.

Thanks again for your posts. I enjoy reading them.

Add verse 18.

 

[icxn]

weird to me, but hot and cold both suggest a like a lack of humility, for some reason? So i guess i need better defs for those prolly

The person who loves God and does His will is the one who is hot. He who hates (is cold towards) sin, but is not yet perfected in love is the one who is cold. Both are acceptable to God. He who still loves something of the old man (sin), even though he may do a few good deeds on occasion, i.e. he mixes the two and is therefore lukewarm, is detestable to God.