Is that what your church has been doing? No wonder you left it...
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People can say a lot of things over the Internet. Am I suppose to just take someones word that I've never met before as fact?
That's just as naive as people believing Perry Stone when he talks about the "Meal that Heals" as he wears eye glasses.
You may contact the father, Dr. Richard Steenland and ask him if you like. He's an anesthesiologist and was working at Jersey Shore Medical center at the time in Monmouth county, New Jersey. I haven't spoken with him in over a decade but he used to reside in Spring Lake, New Jersey. There's a pastor named Andrew Rappaport currently living in PA who was a friend and seminary student at the time, an avid proponent of John MacArthur, and would probably recall the wonder of the event, but I think he would agree that Apostolic signs had ceased. He'd be easy to contact as he is actively involved with social media and has assisted ministries with web site set ups, blogging and the like (he had some technical expertise from his former vocation prior to entering full time ministry.)
It doesn't do any good to provide information/proof that they ask for because they won't follow through with it. They just want to be sounding brass to be heard.
Do people really search things out anymore? Questions are not bad. Investigating is not bad. Believing everything you read and hear as fact is.
I would suggest you stop believing what you read and hear then because it is leading you astray. Best thing to.do is pray and seek Him for the truth.
I came from the word of faith background. You don't ever question these "preachers" when you clearly hear them state something that is out there? Not sure who you listen to or if you listen to any of the major word of faith preachers, but you don't have to search long to find issues.
I'm not going to be spiritual fed by a pastor who says that the biggest failure in the Bible is God (Kenneth Copeland)
I've heard of the word of faith movement, but have no direct knowledge of any doctrines they support or works they claim. My own background was originally in Roman Catholicism (which I rejected at the age of 13 because of nonbiblical teaching). Born again through the ministry of a former Jehovah's witness turned Charismatic born again Christian. Member at one Baptist church, attended at a few others and one newer church spawned off the teaching of Chuck Smith (Who I was not in full agreement with.)
I didn't ask for a prophetic ministry, but there isn't a single church that I attended where it wasn't necessary to confront or counsel a pastor about a serious concern that was being missed or neglected by the Pastor or elders. At least one of those churches failed and closed their doors forever because the Pastor was more interested in story telling than preaching the word (that was Avon Baptist church in Avon, New Jersey.)
What if they are simply answers to prayers? God does indeed do miracles in answers to prayers. And James says that the prayer of faith shall heal the sick (James 5).
Christians should STOP focusing on signs, wonders, and miracles, since they can also be Satanic. But the preaching of the pure, true, and full Gospel of Christ for the salvation of souls should be the focus of all churches, missionaries, and Christians (Romans 10).
THE GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION
For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek... Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my Gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. (Rom 1:16;16:25-27)
I get it, there are a lot of churches that have names that they are alive, but are dead. There are centuries of false doctrines introduced by free masons into the traditional protestant churches as well as over a millennia of strange doctrines introduced by the Roman Catholic church. The devil didn't need to raise up Islam to bring Jihad to Europe as the organized church was already full of factions, some ready to execute dissenters as heretics. The kingdom of heaven upon Earth is bloated, puffed up like a loaf of leavened bread, with false doctrines, unbelieving "believers", unaddressed sin, even the tares sown by the adversary, but apparently there is no longer a need for spiritual and sign gifts because everyone that has a bible reads it, believes it, and trusts it as God's sole representative, upon earth. The just shall live by faith, but a wicked generation seeks a sign. Given the times, the signs will be forthcoming.
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
I wish you all would stop using "Ramen". I like Ramen". Take the beef ramen and add an onion, fresh basil, and some fresh tabasco peppers and dinner is served.Majority of the theology here is Ramen
Don't even get me started on Vienna sausages (Armor brand only). That'd be a threadworthy topic itself.I would not say theology is lacking, there are just many differences. Add to that the idea of "spiritual truth" and the gap even widens.
The most spiritually gifted and mature person I have personally encountered had horrible theology. Ask her a question and her response was "I do not know, but Jesus died for me and I live for Him". She has passed now, but her life was dedicated to sharing the gospel (a simple gospel) in both word and deed.
I had an encounter on an online forum (not this one) where a member took exception to something I had said (I can't recall exactly what, but it started with my adherence to the Caledonian Creed and my belief that redemption is a triune work of God). He adopted an agenda to discredit me because I disagreed with him. There was no truth in what he said. Rather than responding in a Christ-like manner I responded by insulting him for lying about me. And the "war" began. There was nothing of spiritual value in my responses either.
But God used that experience to refine how I interact with others. He used that in my life to bring an awareness to my own sinfulness and the things I need to take care of. I was pointing to the splinter in the eye of that man (his false accusations about me) while ignoring the log in my own eye (my insults in response). My words towards him reflected a spiritual deficit. And God used that board and those interactions to move me spiritually, to produce spiritual growth.
This was not a change in doctrine (I still believe that Christ's divinity and humanity are inseparable yet without mixture). But it was a very significant change in my own life. Sure, it reinforced and applied Scripture. But the change was so much more than an acceptance of doctrine. It was a spiritual application of what I had already accepted yet for some reason not fully applied.
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
You see, the problem here is you assume people you are talking to are somehow unfamiliar with such things. I studied the stuff 25 years ago, and departed from the errors in it so long ago that I don't even remember half of it anymore. Why would I go back and "search" for it now? But yet you said the same things to me, saying, "Years ago I use to be a supporter of the whole charismatic / word of faith / movement... So, I can understand why someone (by implication me) wouldn't want to continue the conversation and truly investigate and hold these 'pastors / prophets' accountable for the lies they're sharing."
Your biggest problem is that virtually everything you say is based upon assumptions, either about who you are talking to or what they are saying, and you appear to think that all you know now is the limit of what a man can know on the subject. How do you ever expect to grow spiritually if your ears are so dim of hearing? There is more than what you know, as is the case with every Cessationist I've ever read.
Btw, regarding John Macarthur whom you cite in your signature - as interpreters go he's relatively solid, though that unfortunately isn't saying much - you do realize that he is currently worth around $15,000,000.00, yes? If you are opposed to "prosperity teachers," what are you doing promoting a man who hoards that kind of wealth? By the same token that Heart2Soul should be able to heal every living soul on the planet in the next 10 minutes if she truly had any spiritual gift, why isn't MacArthur distributing his excessive wealth to the poor Christians around the world? (James 2:14-17).
Seems that would be easier, and yet he isn't doing so, and you hold him up as an example.
Thank you for your wisdom, but you seem to have missed some very important points in scripture, not explicitly stated, but shown through example: Signs are for unbelievers and scoffers. The works of Jesus were signs fulfilling scripture as the described works of God and His anointed/holy one and Son. The spiritual gifts, including healings and prophesy, were for the ministry of the church. (And the latter is explicitly stated in scripture.)
Do you believe the gifts were ever exercised without prayer?
I didn't know that my ministry was a prophetic one as a new believer. I thought it was just letter writing to share scriptural truth with those in error. At the time I believed the gospel and prayed to receive His Spirit, I wasn't even attending any church, but spent the first three years just reading the same bible, repeatedly, front to back (an inexpensive King James Version that I had to discard when the pages started falling out.) I'd written letters about concerns to a few of our Presidents before believing the gospel, so after being born again and reading through an article about a movement in the RCC to elevate Saint Mary to the title of coredemtrix, it seemed reasonable and I felt compelled to write a letter to Pope John Paul as a "brother in the Lord" addressing obvious doctrinal error in the church, warning of further dividing the body of Christ, and calling for repentance. I wrote by hand and made no copies so I'm unsure of the exact date but it was sent to the Vatican somewhere around 1998 or 99. I expected that it would be read by some Secretary or assistant and possibly just thrown out, but I was unaware at that time that John Paul's health was failing and I suspect that he not only read the letter, but took it to heart. It wasn't long after the letter that John Paul made an apology for the errors of the RCC throughout its 2000 year history (and upset quite a few of the cardinals) and called for a restoration of "pure vision" in the church.
Was that God's work or just the coincidence of a fanciful overweight communications technician living in New Jersey?
I sometimes wonder if the Vatican locked my letter away in some draw in some dark closet in the basement or simply tossed it. I was confirmed at the age of 13 (which is why my father restrained my mother from disallowing my "adult" choice to stop attending masses), but to my knowledge I've never been excommunicated.
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Having wealth is not a sin. The teaching ministry of MacArthur is not built on the backs of poor and sick people that Word of Faith preachers prey upon. You will never hear MacArthur say that the purpose of life is health, wealth, and prosperity.
Also in my signature is the quote in neon green, one that many should think about.
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
I think one of the reasons Christians may seem to focus on signs and wonders so much is because Cessationists seem to be constantly drawing attention to it. I think they they do most of the freaking out over it. Most people I know who move in genuine gifts aren't drawing attention to themselves over it, or being "consumed" with it. They are just flowing in it without giving it much thought one way or the other. And most conversations with Cessationists just causes things to stagnate. Instead of discussing constructive ways to cast aside the bad and hold to the good (1 Thessalonians 5:19-22), the discussion is always over throwing every bit of it out, lock, stock and barrel.
Attention will be drawn to it when places like Bethel church, Todd White, and other false teachers deceive people.
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Do you think the unsaved are buying his books and paying his salary, or do you think Christians are? Or do you think only "rich" Christians are doing so? If it's not the purpose of his life then why is he doing so? Is he unaware of how massing that kind of wealth and hoarding it to himself looks in the eyes of the Christian poor in other countries?
And again, why should Heart2Soul be expected to raise the dead in an entire cemetery or heal the stick in an entire hospital when no one in either the OT or the NT did so, including the Lord Jesus Christ Himself? Doesn't that again sound like standing in the office of the Accuser despite claiming to serve and speak for the Lord?
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