Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[marks]

It's okay if you don't quote all of the verses that seem to refute what I'm saying. I've already read all of the verses (and studied them, hehe). I've seen this topic debated ad nauseam. I would be very careful about taking the position you're taking because of scriptures like these:

Matt 25:45-46--“Then He will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me either.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

1 Thes 2:7-10--This will take place at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful angels, taking vengeance with flaming fire on those who don’t know God and on those who don’t obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from His glorious strength in that day when He comes to be glorified by His saints and to be admired by all those who have believed, because our testimony among you was believed.

Won't "eternal punishment" amount to eternal suffering??
.

That same word used in Matthew, eternal punishment, is the same word used by John, He who fears is not made perfect in love, because fear has torment.

When we stick to defining things by Scripture, this is what we have. Fear has torment. And these show go into everlasting torment. And we can either believe it or not.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

It's okay if you don't quote all of the verses that seem to refute what I'm saying. I've already read all of the verses (and studied them, hehe). I've seen this topic debated ad nauseam. I would be very careful about taking the position you're taking because of scriptures like these:

Matt 25:45-46--“Then He will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me either.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

1 Thes 2:7-10--This will take place at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful angels, taking vengeance with flaming fire on those who don’t know God and on those who don’t obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from His glorious strength in that day when He comes to be glorified by His saints and to be admired by all those who have believed, because our testimony among you was believed.

Won't "eternal punishment" amount to eternal suffering??
.

I think that we are influenced by Western artists like Dante. It was once a practice to try to frighten people to go to church and the like.

Eternal punishment is not being burned forever. It is eternal separation from God. God is not a sadist.

People who claim to be saved...but without any connection to God...will simply get their wish. If people are happy to live in darkness now...then they will simply reap as they have sown. But their true condition will become apparent to all.

 

[marks]

“Where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched”

I forget which targum I read this in, that this "worm" that never dies, they thought of that as "what is left of a man whom God had destroyed".

It reminds me of Psalm 22 where Jesus says, But I am a worm and not a man, on that cross.

Much love!

 

[charity]

There is an eternal conscious punishment (albeit not physical torment) in the bible. Outer darkness...being a castaway...banished from the face of God. And this is an eternal destiny. Not like heaven and hell...which are places but not destinies.

So there is so much confusion in modern religious thinking between places now at present...and eternal destinies. This oversimplification has filled the churches with people...but has done nothing to bring people to any kind of actual knowledge or experience with God. And is NOT preparing people for any kind of good end.

But did I mention that it's popular?

Hello @Episkopos,

I have not found it to be popular by any means. The study that I have made is a personal one, and a very thorough one, therefore I am in no doubt as to it's conclusion. It is not an oversimplification, but a statement of fact, expressed in simple terms.

Thank you
With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[2 Chr. 34:19]

I forget which targum I read this in, that this "worm" that never dies, they thought of that as "what is left of a man whom God had destroyed".

It reminds me of Psalm 22 where Jesus says, But I am a worm and not a man, on that cross.

Much love!

Mark 9:48
I was told that the worm could be a persons conscience, after death

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I think that we are influenced by Western artists like Dante. It was once a practice to try to frighten people to go to church and the like.

Eternal punishment is not being burned forever. It is eternal separation from God. God is not a sadist.

People who claim to be saved...but without any connection to God...will simply get their wish. If people are happy to live in darkness now...then they will simply reap as they have sown. But their true condition will become apparent to all.

I'm basing my beliefs on the scriptures I quoted, not on Dante as you have supposed. I don't like the idea of eternal punishment, but this is what Jesus said would happen. And punishment is not pleasant even for the children of God, who scourges every son whom He receives (Heb 12:6). And yes, this punishment will involve eternal separation from God in hell where there is nothing good because only God is good.

 

[justbyfaith]

Ah, the straw man rears its ugly head. Now, you may say 'twas I who made the man of straw, but coupled with my remark about the status quo... the straw man becomes hyperbole. Just relax, it'll come out all right. Even if millions believe you can scare a man into loving God.

How's this for a deterrent to sin?

The love of God as an incentive to love Him back.

Realizing what He has saved me from produces within me great gratitude; which might be less great if what He had saved me from were a less horrible fate.

 

[Waiting on him]

“Where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched”

What did a worm ever do to God?

 

[Waiting on him]

That same word used in Matthew, eternal punishment, is the same word used by John, He who fears is not made perfect in love, because fear has torment.

When we stick to defining things by Scripture, this is what we have. Fear has torment. And these show go into everlasting torment. And we can either believe it or not.

Much love!

Luke 8:28 KJV
[28] When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

 

[Waiting on him]

I forget which targum I read this in, that this "worm" that never dies, they thought of that as "what is left of a man whom God had destroyed".

It reminds me of Psalm 22 where Jesus says, But I am a worm and not a man, on that cross.

Much love!

The Crimson Or Scarlet Worm » Alpha Omega Institute

 

[Waiting on him]

The Crimson Or Scarlet Worm » Alpha Omega Institute

Could be he’s never received as having died for them

three time in mark their worm dieth not.

 

[BarneyFife]

Realizing what He has saved me from produces within me great gratitude; which might be less great if what He had saved me from were a less horrible fate.

Problem is, rationalism doesn't establish orthodoxy.

 

[Truman]

One day years ago I was thinking about eternal torment. I thought, "If God knowingly created many people knowing they would end up burning in the agony of fire forever, how is He not worse than all the Hitlers, Stalins, and Maos put together? The worst these madmen did was to prematurely end lives. So if eternal punishment is real, doesn't that make God a monster?
I know God and He is my Abba Father. He isn't like that. So I got out my bible and concordance and started looking up the word or words from which the word fire was translated from. After going through many examples of fire, I found they all came from the same root word. And then just before I ran out of words to search, I found a different root word. I looked into it and soon realized that this root word from one example of fire was talking about the eternal fire, a spiritual fire.
Due to the inconsistency of eternal torture with the nature of God, I decided that when I read about the punishment of eternal fire or the eternal punishment of fire, I was to adhere to the former. I just didn't know that anyone else believed this way.
Where I'm at now, I believe that any human who gets thrown into the lake of fire will quickly cease to exist. Physical fire does not affect fallen angels and demons as I've seen them flying into active volcanoes, the flames from a rocket, like the Space Shuttle, from power flashes caused by tornadoes, explosions like Beirut, structures like those found on Venus and Mercury, etc. These evil beings are spirit and are not affected by this type of fire.
I suspect that books like Dante's Inferno inspired paintings of horrible torture which in turn caused people to be afraid of God. Isn't this what fear means? No. 500 years ago the word fear meant to have reverence and respect for someone. Today the word fear means to be afraid. In attempting not to change scripture, keeping this word has done just that: changed the meaning of scripture. I would replace this word with the term reverential awe. Shalom.

 

[justbyfaith]

Problem is, rationalism doesn't establish orthodoxy.

Right...the word of the Lord is what establishes orthodoxy...and it clearly teaches everlasting torments as punishment in hell (then the lake of fire).

 

[justbyfaith]

Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:49, So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Understanding these verses together, I find that there is a punishment involving conscious torment in fire, that is everlasting in nature.

 

[BarneyFife]

Right...the word of the Lord is what establishes orthodoxy...and it clearly teaches everlasting torments as punishment in hell (then the lake of fire).

I've found that when folks have to use words like "clearly" and "obviously," there's likely some slight angst or vulnerability brewing in their cases.

 

[justbyfaith]

I've found that when folks have to use words like "clearly" and "obviously," there's likely some slight angst or vulnerability brewing in their cases.

Is there something wrong with vulnerability? I find it to be a virtue...

There is certainly no angst on my part.

 

[BarneyFife]

I have never heard of this Mr. Fudge, but I generally go with annihilationism.

"The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish." Psalm 1:4-6

There was a movie about his life. "Hell And Mr. Fudge." I think they owe me some royalties from my "Ghost And Mr. Chicken" movie. lol

 

[amadeus]

There was a movie about his life. "Hell And Mr. Fudge." I think they owe me some royalties from my "Ghost And Mr. Chicken" movie. lol

Thanks! I read the article you linked to his writing. I have similar understandings and writings on my computer from many years ago. Annihilation for me filled in some of the blanks or question marks in my understanding of God and His Way according to scripture. Is it at an AT for me?

Some of the answers on this thread [and unfortunately others on other subjects] continue to bring home how people really have been indoctrinated to where they will not even consider other possibilities. God showed me years ago [but many years after I began to serve Him] to be slow to affirm that something is an AT [Absolute Truth] and not simply something held in faith. I only began to use the expression, AT, when I saw our friend @bbyrd009 using it on this forum a few years ago. He helped me understand better what I really already believed on that point... that I should not too quickly regarding Him solidifying it to the point where even God was left the outside a closed and locked door to my heart.

I believe that there are ATs in us along with some strongly held beliefs. I believe that most [all?] of us do not know which ones are which...

I hope you receive some of those owed royalties soon!

 

[Truman]

I think that if we are honest with ourselves we will admit that it is not necessarily the word of God that we know, but rather our interpretation of the word that we know. And we may have it right. To teach me what He means regarding doctrine, He has taught me to seek Him for understanding until I lay hold of it. I understand that most don't have the time or energy to do this which is one reason why I dig as I do.
I never expect anyone to take my word for it as I'm fallible and though I give it my best effort, I sometimes miss it. I constantly ask God to quickly show me if and when I make mistakes. And He does. I model a stance that has worked for me and though God may work in another differently, He always agrees with His word. If my belief contradicts the word at any point then there is something wrong with my understanding.
In running my race, there are hurdles that I need to jump over and not get hung up on so I can complete my race successfully. The clearer my doctrine the smoother my race will go.
My doctrine says that Christ died once though I take up my cross daily and often use it. This is the tricky part. I was at a retreat once and during a discussion, it dawned on me that when I use my cross, the repented sin goes to the time when Jesus hung on the tree. I said, "Is it possible that when I sin and repent, taking it to my cross, could it increase the suffering that Jesus went through?" As if waiting for this question, the immediate response was, "do you want to take that chance?"
My goal is not to cause anyone to feel guilty about repenting, it's just something to ponder. When we repent He is faithful and just to forgive us. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. To me, this is something like time traveling which I believe God can and does do. I hope this will clear the air about this issue. "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings." Proverbs 25:2 NIV Shalom