Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[Waiting on him]

@ReChoired, that is a lot of effort put forth to deny some very sound teaching in holy scripture; and what I found was that many of the verses you quoted actually teach the concepts that you have been denying.

I will point out concerning one of your contentions, that a day is coming when all who do wickedly shall be as stubble and shall be burned up completely; but that there is a day coming afterward in which those same wicked people will be resurrected and judged and then cast into the furnace of fire where there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth; and that this shall be everlasting punishment for them.

And to attempt to diminish the doctrine of eternal torments in the lake of fire is to diminish its deterring effect so that people will not be deterred from going there and will find themselves in for a hard shock when they finally end up in everlasting torments.

They may say on that day, "But I was not deterred from sinning as I should have been; because @ReChoired taught me that the wicked will only be annihilated and that therefore I did not have to fear everlasting punishment."

And God will say to them, "he will have the consequences for teaching you that false doctrine; and your judgment is not deferred."

Therefore, you, @ReChoired, will be held accountable in the justice of God for the fate of those people who will end up in everlasting torment because they trusted in your teaching about annihilation. For they will in fact cry out to God for justice against the one who deceived them in this matter.

So God is going to resurrect flesh that’s been dead for thousands of years, so He can torture them forever?

 

[Waiting on him]

I’m trying to rap my mind around this concept, does He God resurrect sinful flesh, or does He resurrect glorified sinners, or does He only resurrect their soul. Which would by the way suggest the soul had died in order for it to be resurrected?

 

[Brakelite]

It’s not the body of man, which is temporal, that will burn forever, but the soul, which is immortal. @Enoch111 quoted several verses showing that the Lake of Fire is eternal.

Except you cannot prove this from scripture. Scripture does not show the lake of fire as being eternal at all. Scripture says it can't be put out. Well, the fires here in Victoria couldn't be put out either. Many of them went out by themselves because they ran out of fuel. Not being able to put it out doesn't mean they last forever and ever and ever.

It says the punishment (noun), not punishing (verb) is eternal, and it says there will be no resurrection after the second death, therefore that death is eternal. Thus death is the eternal punishment. Not life. Death. Just as scripture says numerous times everywhere...the wages of sin is death etc etc. It takes no little amount of mental agility to make death mean precisely the same as eternal life (albeit in torment).

 

[Waiting on him]

@ReChoired, that is a lot of effort put forth to deny some very sound teaching in holy scripture; and what I found was that many of the verses you quoted actually teach the concepts that you have been denying.

I will point out concerning one of your contentions, that a day is coming when all who do wickedly shall be as stubble and shall be burned up completely; but that there is a day coming afterward in which those same wicked people will be resurrected and judged and then cast into the furnace of fire where there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth; and that this shall be everlasting punishment for them.

And to attempt to diminish the doctrine of eternal torments in the lake of fire is to diminish its deterring effect so that people will not be deterred from going there and will find themselves in for a hard shock when they finally end up in everlasting torments.

They may say on that day, "But I was not deterred from sinning as I should have been; because @ReChoired taught me that the wicked will only be annihilated and that therefore I did not have to fear everlasting punishment."

And God will say to them, "he will have the consequences for teaching you that false doctrine; and your judgment is not deferred."

Therefore, you, @ReChoired, will be held accountable in the justice of God for the fate of those people who will end up in everlasting torment because they trusted in your teaching about annihilation. For they will in fact cry out to God for justice against the one who deceived them in this matter.

And also if I were God and knew I had billions of souls trapped in torment I don’t believe I’d ever have a clear conscience, in fact I’d feel like a real ass even incapable of forgiveness?

 

[Brakelite]

Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:49, So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Understanding these verses together, I find that there is a punishment involving conscious torment in fire, that is everlasting in nature.

I'm not much of a wordsmith or English grammatical expert, but I think what you have posted above would be called a false equivalence. Allow me to demonstrate...
I drove my car into the wreckers, with spluttering and belching smoke and grinding of parts....there to abide forever.
It doesn't mean that my car continues to splutter, belch smoke, and grind parts. It gets wrecked. And it dies. To deduce from my analogy an understanding that my car shall continue to make gurgling noises for all eternity would be a false equivalence.

So also with sinners. They are judged guilty, and with grinding teeth, screams of fear and trepidation, wailing and profusions of profanity and cursing of God and man, according to the time it takes the fires to devour them and silence them. They die. They are not raised to life again. Their punishment is as scripture describes...they die. Perish. They become ashes. Burnt up. Destroyed. They are not immortal, never were. Even the righteous will depend on the tree of life to live in the new earth. How can sinners live separated from the only Source of Life?

 

[Brakelite]

And also if I were God and knew I had billions of souls trapped in torment I don’t believe I’d ever have a clear conscience, in fact I’d deal like a real ass even incapable of forgiveness?

My greatest objection to eternal torment as a concept is the picture it provides as to the character of God. And it offends me greatly that Christians who would in any other context promote God as loving and gracious, merciful and just, in this particular context cast Him off as a tyrant with a character infinitely worse the the basest of despots ever to cast a shadow on this planet, all of whom we rightly condemn, but give God not just a free pass, but attempt to justify the eternal torment concept by claiming it as justice. It baffles me that Christians of otherwise good standing and repute, can think so little of the God they purport to honor.

 

[Waiting on him]

My greatest objection to eternal torment as a concept is the picture it provides as to the character of God. And it offends me greatly that Christians who would in any other context promote God as loving and gracious, merciful and just, in this particular context cast Him off as a tyrant with a character infinitely worse the the basest of despots ever to cast a shadow on this planet, all of whom we rightly condemn, but give God not just a free pass, but attempt to justify the eternal torment concept by claiming it as justice. It baffles me that Christians of otherwise good standing and repute, can think so little of the God they purport to honor.

Well I believe it to be a projection of who they are and not who He is?

 

[Waiting on him]

Sorry if this offends anyone.

 

[Giuliano]

And also if I were God and knew I had billions of souls trapped in torment I don’t believe I’d ever have a clear conscience, in fact I’d feel like a real ass even incapable of forgiveness?

And Satan would be laughing, saying, "See, I told you creating those humans was a bad idea. I knew it wouldn't work." That can't be right!

 

[bbyrd009]

hell is for other ppl

Nice Paradox, there.

seems like anyway, huh

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Except you cannot prove this from scripture. Scripture does not show the lake of fire as being eternal at all. Scripture says it can't be put out. Well, the fires here in Victoria couldn't be put out either. Many of them went out by themselves because they ran out of fuel. Not being able to put it out doesn't mean they last forever and ever and ever.

It says the punishment (noun), not punishing (verb) is eternal, and it says there will be no resurrection after the second death, therefore that death is eternal. Thus death is the eternal punishment. Not life. Death. Just as scripture says numerous times everywhere...the wages of sin is death etc etc. It takes no little amount of mental agility to make death mean precisely the same as eternal life (albeit in torment).

Death is a state of separation.

People are born spiritually dead, separated from our Creator because of the first Adam's disobedience. When we die physically, our souls are separated from our bodies. When a lost person dies physically, they will be separated from God for all eternity.

WADR, what you're saying about "punishment" and "punishing" sounds like semantics to me. You and I will not reach an agreement on this.
.

 

[Brakelite]

Well I believe it to be a projection of who they are and not who He is?

And an ongoing mindset inherited from the dark ages when those who believed such things thought it appropriate to give heretics a "taste" in order to deter them from continuing in their "apostasy". Tis a scary thing when we consider that the christ they believe in is the one whom they seek to emulate.

 

[bbyrd009]

@ReChoired, that is a lot of effort put forth to deny some very sound teaching in holy scripture; and what I found was that many of the verses you quoted actually teach the concepts that you have been denying.

I will point out concerning one of your contentions, that a day is coming when all who do wickedly shall be as stubble and shall be burned up completely; but that there is a day coming afterward in which those same wicked people will be resurrected and judged and then cast into the furnace of fire where there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth; and that this shall be everlasting punishment for them.

And to attempt to diminish the doctrine of eternal torments in the lake of fire is to diminish its deterring effect so that people will not be deterred from going there and will find themselves in for a hard shock when they finally end up in everlasting torments.

They may say on that day, "But I was not deterred from sinning as I should have been; because @ReChoired taught me that the wicked will only be annihilated and that therefore I did not have to fear everlasting punishment."

And God will say to them, "he will have the consequences for teaching you that false doctrine; and your judgment is not deferred."

Therefore, you, @ReChoired, will be held accountable in the justice of God for the fate of those people who will end up in everlasting torment because they trusted in your teaching about annihilation. For they will in fact cry out to God for justice against the one who deceived them in this matter.

who told you that you were naked, jbf?

which do you think is worse, being ignorant and forgiven, or knowing better and being forgiven anyway?

 

[Waiting on him]

And Satan would be laughing, saying, "See, I told you creating those humans was a bad idea. I knew it wouldn't work." That can't be right!

Well, I’ve had people do some pretty horrific things to me, but I’d hope myself as well as God has forgiven all.

 

[Brakelite]

Death is a state of separation.

People are born spiritually dead, separated from our Creator because of the first Adam's disobedience. When we die physically, our souls are separated from our bodies. When a lost person dies physically, they will be separated from God for all eternity.

WADR, what you're saying about "punishment" and "punishing" sounds like semantics to me. You and I will not reach an agreement on this.
.

You still haven't yet shown from scripture that humans are immortal...and to separate soul from body is unbiblical...even Greek paganism. And in any other context semantics would be "proof text". Maybe we won't agree. I feel sorry for you that the God you believe in is capable of what you are claiming. I do not believe that god exists. And it certainly should not be the god we present to the unbeliever. Its false.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

You still haven't yet shown from scripture that humans are immortal...and to separate soul from body is unbiblical...even Greek paganism. And in any other context semantics would be "proof text". Maybe we won't agree. I feel sorry for you that the God you believe in is capable of what you are claiming. I do not believe that god exists. And it certainly should not be the god we present to the unbeliever. Its false.

Greek paganism??? My beliefs are as far from that as you can get! I find your assertions about me in this post to be generally bizarre and offensive, but I forgive your misrepresentation of my beliefs.

This scripture is what I base my beliefs on, not SDA doctrine.

Matt 25:45-46--“Then He will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me either.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[Waiting on him]

The things done to the body not so hard, but the soul wounds they are hard to work through, but he is faithful!

praise God!

 

[Waiting on him]

Greek paganism??? My beliefs are as far from that as you can get! I find your assertions about me in this post to be generally bizarre and offensive.

This scripture is what I base my beliefs on, not SDA doctrine.

Matt 25:45-46--“Then He will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me either.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Well, I’ve withheld love when it was in my power to give.

May God forgive me.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Well, I’ve withheld love when it was in my power to give.

May God forgive me.

And this means what??

 

[Waiting on him]

And this means what??

He, is full of Mercy, full Of Grace, Mighty to Save, I wish I were more a model of this.

nothing implied towards you.