Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[Waiting on him]

So, you guys don't exist in the same physical body?

Absolutely not.

 

[BarneyFife]

Then how is it that when a believer "dies," he lives on in heaven?

The question is, how can he live on in Heaven when he's dead?

 

[Earburner]

The ONLY fire that is Eternal, is the all consuming Fire of God Himself.
Therefore, when all of that which can burn and will burn, even the earth itself, will eventually stop burning, due to lack of fuel in that of itself.
So no, there is no eternal burning "Hell" , as you "religiously" understand it.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

The question is, how can he live on in Heaven when he's dead?

Are you saying that believers don't die physically, that our bodies don't die?

When humans "die," our souls separate from our bodies. Depending on whether or not we are saved, I believe that our souls either go to heaven or hell. At the resurrection of the dead, I believe that believers will receive bodies of glory as Jesus had when resurrected. As Paul said, we will be changed in a moment....

1 Cor 15:50-58--Brothers, I tell you this: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and corruption cannot inherit incorruption. Listen! I am telling you a mystery:
We will not all fall asleep,
but we will all be changed,
in a moment, in the blink of an eye,
at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound,
and the dead will be raised incorruptible,
and we will be changed.
For this corruptible must be clothed
with incorruptibility,
and this mortal must be clothed
with immortality.
When this corruptible is clothed
with incorruptibility,
and this mortal is clothed
with immortality,
then the saying that is written will take place:
Death has been swallowed up in victory.
Death, where is your victory?
Death, where is your sting?
Now the sting of death is sin,
and the power of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory
through our Lord Jesus Christ!
Therefore, my dear brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the Lord’s work, knowing that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

 

[Waiting on him]

The question is, how can he live on in Heaven when he's dead?

It’s what is refined that enters and lives.

 

[Waiting on him]

The chafe/dross is blown away.

 

[Waiting on him]

Are you saying that believers don't die physically, that our bodies don't die?

When humans "die," our souls separate from our bodies. Depending on whether or not we are saved, I believe that our souls either go to heaven or hell. At the resurrection of the dead, I believe that believers will receive bodies of glory as Jesus had when resurrected. As Paul said, we will be changed in a moment....

1 Cor 15:50-58--Brothers, I tell you this: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and corruption cannot inherit incorruption. Listen! I am telling you a mystery:
We will not all fall asleep,
but we will all be changed,
in a moment, in the blink of an eye,
at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound,
and the dead will be raised incorruptible,
and we will be changed.
For this corruptible must be clothed
with incorruptibility,
and this mortal must be clothed
with immortality.
When this corruptible is clothed
with incorruptibility,
and this mortal is clothed
with immortality,
then the saying that is written will take place:
Death has been swallowed up in victory.
Death, where is your victory?
Death, where is your sting?
Now the sting of death is sin,
and the power of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory
through our Lord Jesus Christ!
Therefore, my dear brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the Lord’s work, knowing that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

Notice it is at the last trumpet.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Notice it is at the last trumpet.

And what is your disagreement with what I said in that post?

 

[BarneyFife]

I know it's been mentioned already, but the King James lends itself to an eternal torment interpretation. It's still my favorite, BTW.

 

[Waiting on him]

And what is your disagreement with what I said in that post?

Nothing, I believe this is when the walls fall.

 

[amadeus]

It could be that some people will burn until they stop relishing the idea of others burning in pain eternally and until all impure ideas about God are consumed in the flames. (He who digs a pit shall fall into it?)

Me? I see the fires of hell favorably. They burn away what isn't worth saving. I think a saint, if perfected, could walk through hell without the least problem. I think the fire in hell are actually flames of Love -- which the sinful nature experiences as painful. As long as the sinful nature resists Love, it burns and feels pain, and wastes away. God is Love, but unfortunately some people experience His Love as painful.

Yes, they burn away all that is not worth saving! Will there be any, who in the end of the matter, have nothing at all, in the eyes of God, worth saving? Too bad our @Helen is not here to respond to this. A little touch [or more than a little?] of universalism? No, I am not a universalist!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

What exactly does this have to do with eternal Hell? It is most unwise to take things out of context.

only that they could not bear for being consumed with the fire of His presence. Pleading with Moses, maybe wrong but imo they being fully aware of the need of one coming... ‘I come to not destroy but to save. I come that they may have Life’, this even seen in the fiery furnace seven times hotter
Fire and brimstone ...what do you say is Fire and brimstone? That is what they lake prepared for destruction of the flesh and everything false and a lie

Isaiah 30:33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

Topheth, from Heb. toph "a drum," because the cries of children here sacrificed by the priests of Moloch were drowned by the noise of such an instrument; or from taph or toph, meaning "to burn," and hence a place of burning, the name of a particular part in the valley of Hinnom. "Fire being the most destructive of all elements, is chosen by the sacred writers to symbolize the agency by which God punishes or destroys the wicked. We are not to assume from prophetical figures that material fire is the precise agent to be used. It was not the agency employed in the destruction of Sennacherib, mentioned in Isa 30:33...Tophet properly begins where the Vale of Hinnom bends round to the east, having the cliffs of Zion on the north, and the Hill of Evil Counsel on the south. It terminates at Beer 'Ayub, where it joins the Valley of Jehoshaphat. The cliffs on the southern side especially abound in ancient tombs. Here the dead carcasses of beasts and every offal and abomination were cast, and left to be either devoured by that worm that never died or consumed by that fire that was never quenched." Thus Tophet came to represent the place of punishment.

Do not know if any of that is true as it is google but it is interesting.

Luke 12:47-51 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. [48] But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. [49] I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? [50] But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! [51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:


Luke 3:16-17 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: [17] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

 

[amadeus]

yes the concept where a consuming fire burns away everything about me that is unfavorable in the eyes of God.

"...Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire,...Dan 3:24-25

 

[Waiting on him]

only that they could not bear for being consumed with the fire of His presence. Pleading with Moses, maybe wrong but imo they being fully aware of the need of one coming... ‘I come to not destroy but to save. I come that they may have Life’, this even seen in the fiery furnace seven times hotter
Fire and brimstone ...what do you say is Fire and brimstone? That is what they lake prepared for destruction of the flesh and everything false and a lie

Isaiah 30:33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

Topheth, from Heb. toph "a drum," because the cries of children here sacrificed by the priests of Moloch were drowned by the noise of such an instrument; or from taph or toph, meaning "to burn," and hence a place of burning, the name of a particular part in the valley of Hinnom. "Fire being the most destructive of all elements, is chosen by the sacred writers to symbolize the agency by which God punishes or destroys the wicked. We are not to assume from prophetical figures that material fire is the precise agent to be used. It was not the agency employed in the destruction of Sennacherib, mentioned in Isa 30:33...Tophet properly begins where the Vale of Hinnom bends round to the east, having the cliffs of Zion on the north, and the Hill of Evil Counsel on the south. It terminates at Beer 'Ayub, where it joins the Valley of Jehoshaphat. The cliffs on the southern side especially abound in ancient tombs. Here the dead carcasses of beasts and every offal and abomination were cast, and left to be either devoured by that worm that never died or consumed by that fire that was never quenched." Thus Tophet came to represent the place of punishment.

Do not know if any of that is true as it is google but it is interesting.

Luke 12:47-51 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. [48] But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. [49] I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? [50] But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! [51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:


Luke 3:16-17 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: [17] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

I for one am glad He is merciful to ignorance.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

What exactly does this have to do with eternal Hell? It is most unwise to take things out of context.

Numbers 11:1-3 And when the people complained, it displeased the Lord : and the Lord heard it ; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the Lord burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp. [2] And the people cried unto Moses; and when Moses prayed unto the Lord, the fire was quenched. [3] And he called the name of the place Taberah: because the fire of the Lord burnt among them.


The amazing name Taberah: meaning and etymology


Consumption, Burning, Cleaning Out


Isaiah 28:22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord God of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

 

[Waiting on him]

"...Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire,...Dan 3:24-25

2 Timothy 4:17 KJV
[17] Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.
Vickie shared this with me the other day.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Leviticus 26:15-16 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant: [16] I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

2 Corinthians 5:11-12 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. [12] For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

 

[amadeus]

You are still equating life and death as similes instead of opposites. That second death... What is it...
KJV Revelation 20
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecc 9:5

 

[amadeus]

Death is a state of separation.

Adam and Eve were separated from fellowship with God THAT DAY, meaning they died spiritually. Their biological clocks began to wind down toward death THAT DAY as they were prevented from eating from the Tree of Life.

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecc 9:5

 

[VictoryinJesus]

"...Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire,...Dan 3:24-25

‘walking’
2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them ; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


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