Shall we discuss this?

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Truther

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I didn't want to say Michael incarnated into Jesus. You see many believe Jesus is God incarnate, I don't. JW don't believe Jesus to be God incarnate.


When the Word “became flesh” he was no longer a spirit creature. Indeed, he had to be a man in the real sense to fulfill this scripture: “We behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor.” If Jesus had been a God-Man, he could not have been really “lower than angels.” Nor is it reasonable to think that the great Sovereign of the universe, of whom it is written that “at no time has anyone beheld God,” would take up human form and be “lower than angels.” HEB.2:9; 1John 4:12

There were times when angels appeared as men, as when two angels appeared to Lot. Genesis 19:1 Such would be a case of true incarnation. It is noteworthy that the angels visiting Lot materialized as full-grown men, not as babies. If Jesus had been a mere incarnation, then it would not have been necessary for God to transfer his life to an embryo in the virgin’s womb and to have Jesus born as a helpless infant, subject to human parents; he could still have remained a spirit person and materialized a fully developed fleshly body just as the sons of God did in Noah’s day and as the angel Gabriel did before Mary.

One of the cardinal teachings of the Bible is the ransom. Sin and death came upon mankind when a perfect man, Adam, transgressed Jehovah’s law. For obedient mankind to be released from the condemnation of sin and death, a ransom must be paid. It must be the exact equivalent of the perfect man Adam, for God’s law requires exactness: “You must give soul for soul, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.” So for Jesus to provide the ransom he must be a perfect man, no more, no less. Further, if Jesus had been a spirit garbed in flesh he could not really have died at man’s hands; and if he did not really die, again we see that the ransom could not have been provided. But the Bible is clear that Jesus did provide the ransom and that he was a man, not God clothed in flesh: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.” Ex.21:23, 24; 1Timothy 2:5, 6

But now what of 1Timothy 3:16 which says in the King James Version that “God was manifest in the flesh”? This is not an accurate text. In fact, nearly all the ancient manuscripts and all the versions, including the Latin Vulgate, have in their text “He who” instead of “God.” Most modern translations choose “He.” Thus the New World Translation renders it properly: “He was made manifest in flesh,” meaning the Word, who became the man Christ Jesus.

So what have I learned? This has become overwhelmingly clear: (1) The Council of Chalcedon, instead of rejecting the bad, mixed the error that Jesus was God with the truth that he was man, thus winding up with “distilled nonsense”; (2) Jesus in his prehuman existence was not God but God’s Son, “the beginning of the creation by God”; (3) Jesus had to be a real man, not a God-Man, to be “lower than angels”; (4) if Jesus had been a spirit masquerading in human flesh, there would have been no need for him to be born a baby, and (5) to provide the ransom sacrifice Jesus had to die a perfect man, nothing more, nothing less.

The inevitable conclusion is that God’s Word does not teach that Jesus was a God-Man. It teaches that on earth he was a perfect man, a perfect human organism. Those who teach that he was a God-Man teach false religion. They violate the rule set down by the apostle of Christ: “Do not go beyond the things that are written.” 1Corinthians 4:6
Do you see how blunt I am about my beliefs?

I am asking you to be so blunt.

Listen....all faiths have 'secret doctrines" they are embarrassed of, so when they create a convert, they slowly teach them the details.

I will tell the truth to a sinner.

I teach Jesus was made God, to the dismay of Christendom.

You need to be the first JW that teaches openly to sinners etc., that Michael was made Jesus.

You can shock the Christian world and tell the truth of what the JW's teach.

I am a rare first...howbout you?
 
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Truther

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Well that might be how you see it, but not me. I don't think arguing and debating are the same. I also believe that those who do believe they are the same will never win hearts for the The True God Jehovah. I understand being a champion for the truth about Jehovah God who he is and his Word and way that Jehovah God will undo everything Satan has done
Which he is using his Only Begotten Son to undo what Satan has done. I think a debate is a discussion and arguing isn't.
....says the man that is in a religion that goes door to door every Saturday arguing with strangers.
 

amadeus

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Do you see how blunt I am about my beliefs?
I am asking you to be so blunt.
Listen....all faiths have 'secret doctrines" they are embarrassed of, so when they create a convert, they slowly teach them the details.
I will tell the truth to a sinner.

I teach Jesus was made God, to the dismay of Christendom.
I guess God wanted me to see this. There are so many threads and posts these days, I skim through them reading sometimes only the OP and many times only the first line of the OP... especially if it is long and/or complex.

I gave you a 'like' for your apparent honesty on this issue, but I also actually lean toward agreement with the phrase I highlighted in blue and underlined.

I do believe that Jesus is God, but the following verse describes the direction in which I lean...

"Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.
And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See, I have set thee over all the land of Egypt." Gen 41:40-41

I use the word, "lean", rather than believe because while I am much clearer on other things, on this one I really do see through darkened glass. God knows what He is, but to how many people has He revealed himself with regard to this? How important is it to believers? To some the Trinity or Oneness, Jesus Only doctrines are very important. To many it seems essential that we join the "3" group or the "1" group. Perhaps that is really where they are by 'faith', but I cannot live for God by someone else's faith, can I?

To me it is not important enough to stand up and continuously argue with people about it. When people have come on strongly in favor of a Trinity, I have asked them about a verse which would might support a Multipicity [John 17:11, 21] and no one has come back with even an explanation that resolved the issue. Most of them pass it by.

People for the most part get into these discussions to convince someone that they are wrong and that they should change since they, of course, already have the 'truth'... or so it seems to me.
 
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kcnalp

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....by him and THROUGH HIM.....don't forget that verse.
Same thing. He was there in the beginning. John 1!
Be nice or I will post verses that say the FATHER made everything.
And I will agree.

Gen 1 God said let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness.
Father, Son and Holy Spirit, ONE God!

Matt 28 ... baptizing them in the NAME (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

A man CANNOT be "MADE" into the infinite God of the Bible. You must be joking!
 

kcnalp

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....by him and THROUGH HIM.....don't forget that verse.

Be nice or I will post verses that say the FATHER made everything.
You just admitted that Jesus created everything IN THE BEGINNING!

Gen 1 God created the Heavens and Earth ...
 

Truther

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I guess God wanted me to see this. There are so many threads and posts these days, I skim through them reading sometimes only the OP and many times only the first line of the OP... especially if it is long and/or complex.

I gave you a 'like' for your apparent honesty on this issue, but I also actually lean toward agreement with the phrase I highlighted in blue and underlined.

I do believe that Jesus is God, but the following verse describes the direction in which I lean...

"Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.
And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See, I have set thee over all the land of Egypt." Gen 41:40-41

I use the word, "lean", rather than believe because while I am much clearer on other things, on this one I really do see through darkened glass. God knows what He is, but to how many people has He revealed himself with regard to this? How important is it to believers? To some the Trinity or Oneness, Jesus Only doctrines are very important. To many it seems essential that we join the "3" group or the "1" group. Perhaps that is really where they are by 'faith', but I cannot live for God by someone else's faith, can I?

To me it is not important enough to stand up and continuously argue with people about it. When people have come on strongly in favor of a Trinity, I have asked them about a verse which would might support a Multipicity [John 17:11, 21] and no one has come back with even an explanation that resolved the issue. Most of them pass it by.

People for the most part get into these discussions to convince someone that they are wrong and that they should change since they, of course, already have the 'truth'... or so it seems to me.
Your perspective is very wise.

It is true, as a oneness teacher, I had to "come clean" with some of the verses and passages I did not want to deal with.(Mostly John's writings).

I felt some deep annoyance when I "glanced over" his writings about certain statements of Jesus and kept teaching my beliefs.

God eventually stopped me, then made me focus on all of it.

I had a few doctrinal doubts in the old days, but I am really seeing stuff that is inaccurately taught(as was my past).

I hit RESET.

I went back to being a first century disciple.

I banned all commentary, whether ancient or modern.

I bolstered my KJV only stance to pick a Bible I can call the word of God.

I am completely done with supporting ministries that ignore the passages that I once ignored, and when my friends ask me what I think, I explain it to them and let them sort it out per their curiosity.

My sole prayer is that Jesus will come quickly for a church that preaches and teaches the 1st century, book of Acts truth.

I want to be part of it also.

God bless you for your open mindedness....
 

Truther

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Same thing. He was there in the beginning. John 1!

And I will agree.

Gen 1 God said let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness.
Father, Son and Holy Spirit, ONE God!

Matt 28 ... baptizing them in the NAME (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

A man CANNOT be "MADE" into the infinite God of the Bible. You must be joking!
No joke bro.

Jesus was made a quickening spirit after he was ressurected from the DEAD, per 1 Cor 15.

A spirit that raises the dead is God.

He was made God.
 

Truther

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You just admitted that Jesus created everything IN THE BEGINNING!

Gen 1 God created the Heavens and Earth ...
Yes, God did all His creating through the man Christ Jesus in the beginning. He still does today.

Are you implying that God had/has nothing to do with creating stuff, only 1 person did it all?
 

Truther

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God CANNOT stop nor start being God. You are so confused!
If God takes all of His omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience and enters into the body of an omnipresent spirit man, He makes the man, God by default.

You see, you cannot circle around Jesus to get to God anymore...you must go directly THROUGH Jesus.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Do you see how blunt I am about my beliefs?

I am asking you to be so blunt.

Listen....all faiths have 'secret doctrines" they are embarrassed of, so when they create a convert, they slowly teach them the details.

I will tell the truth to a sinner.

I teach Jesus was made God, to the dismay of Christendom.

You need to be the first JW that teaches openly to sinners etc., that Michael was made Jesus.

You can shock the Christian world and tell the truth of what the JW's teach.

I am a rare first...howbout you?

I find in Scripture that Jesus who is the greatest teacher ever wasn't at all that blunt. He gave them knowledge when they were ready for it and when he gave that knowledge he taught it clearly so they would understand but he didn't blunt out knowledge they were not ready to hear.
 

kcnalp

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No joke bro.

Jesus was made a quickening spirit after he was ressurected from the DEAD, per 1 Cor 15.

A spirit that raises the dead is God.

He was made God.
1 Corinthians 15:47 (NKJV)
47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
 

kcnalp

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Yes, God did all His creating through the man Christ Jesus in the beginning. He still does today.

Are you implying that God had/has nothing to do with creating stuff, only 1 person did it all?
Again you admit that Jesus was there in the beginning.
John 1:1-3 (NKJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
 

kcnalp

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If God takes all of His omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience and enters into the body of an omnipresent spirit man, He makes the man, God by default.

You see, you cannot circle around Jesus to get to God anymore...you must go directly THROUGH Jesus.
John 1 The Word was God.
God cannot stop nor start being God. Jesus is God the Creator.
 

mjrhealth

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We give a message, if they don't want to hear it we leave
Yes i know I have spoke to many JW;s it always ends teh same, but than He must have a church. no sorry its not yours. Last time i spoke to one who thanked me for letting his family in my home because as he put it few do, I told him the problem is all you have to offer men is your religion, go find Christ , when you find Him than you will
have something to offer them and people might listen. The truth you have is all head knowledge and you like all religions preach your chuches doctrines and like all religious men, are unwilling to leave to find Him who is the truth, just like our SDA friend. So few are willing, that path is narrow few find it,
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Yes i know I have spoke to many JW;s it always ends teh same, but than He must have a church. no sorry its not yours. Last time i spoke to one who thanked me for letting his family in my home because as he put it few do, I told him the problem is all you have to offer men is your religion, go find Christ , when you find Him than you will
have something to offer them and people might listen. The truth you have is all head knowledge and you like all religions preach your chuches doctrines and like all religious men, are unwilling to leave to find Him who is the truth, just like our SDA friend. So few are willing, that path is narrow few find it,

What we have I believe is the truth that's in the scriptures just as you believe what the truth is. We honestly don't believe that those other religious organizations(churches) that teach the Trinity among other doctrines are teaching the truth which is in the scriptures. So many people today talk about how they have found Christ Jesus. The problem with that is these are people who believe in the Trinity which means basically they haven't found Christ Jesus, even though they honestly believe they have. Too many people care to much about their Trinity Doctrine and not what is actually in the scriptures. The scriptures tell us not to go beyond what is written yet those who do believe in the Trinity do. Even those who consider themselves the best experts on the Trinity admit the doctrine isn't in the scriptures. So they go beyond what is written in the scriptures to teach what they say they believe is the truth.
 

Truther

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I find in Scripture that Jesus who is the greatest teacher ever wasn't at all that blunt. He gave them knowledge when they were ready for it and when he gave that knowledge he taught it clearly so they would understand but he didn't blunt out knowledge they were not ready to hear.
That's Jesus, not you and I.

The disciples did not have any "private" doctrines to spring on the converts, they just laid it all out there...no advanced classes.
 

Truther

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1 Corinthians 15:47 (NKJV)
47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
Yes, he will return from heaven. That is where he is known to be(present tense).