Jesus isn't Catholic

[BreadOfLife]

Nope.

You haven't answered my contention in the slightest.

You have to deal with the word everlasting and what it means if you are going to make your point.

From your pov, Jesus said something like this, in John 6:47...

"Verily, verily, I say to you, He who believeth on me hath everlasting life...but it might only be temporal based on you...so it might not be everlasting...so scratch that part about verily, verily."

Thing is, Jesus didn't add in that last part. What He said was,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

If life is everlasting it cannot come to an end.

Because if it ever comes to an end, it was temporal rather than everlasting.

Therefore if I have everlasting life, my life cannot come to an end...because the nature of my life is that it is everlasting...which means it will last for ever.

You are completely dishonest – and that’s why discussions with you are fruitless.

I challenged YOU and a few others here by giving you about 9 or 10 Scriptural refutation of OSAS. You never even attempted to answer them. ALL you did was to ask me questions about other verses. When I addressed ALL of your questions – you STILL say that I “never” addressed them.

Your point about “everlasting” life was already addressed. I told you that this verse and ALL of the other verses you presented were CONDITIONAL on our cooperation – then I gave you the Scriptural proof for that. We DO have everlasting life – as long as we REMAIN FAITHFUL, as the Scriptures admonish us.

NOW – how about addressing the verses I gave to YOU?

 

[APAK]

It’s pathetic that you fancy yourself a Bible scholar – yet in the depths of your ignorance, you failed to see that “Epignosis” is not used even ONCE in Acts 28. NOBODY here is being addressed like born-again believers in Heb. 10:26-27 who have an “Epignosis” of Christ.

I now see WHY you haven’t addressed the verses of Scripture that I have repeatedly posted which destroy your OSAS fallacy. Because you CAN’T . . .

BOL: over a few years now I've asked you why you think, using your short-sighted view of the Greek term epignosis that it only applies to a 'born-again' audience as in Heb 10:26-27. And then you must also believe that the entire Hebrews, Chapter 10 must also address only born-again folks. Why?

And why are you so interested in those born-again folks as your religion tells you that no one knows they are saved until after death. And again you still insist that Heb 10:26-27 does....why?

Can you provide Paul's audience and context in your answer of Hebrews 10. As well as how epignosis is used in this context. It should also reveal why he accented epignosis and faith to his audience. And yes, Paul also used this type of language in Acts 28:23-28. He did not use the term epignosis explicitly there but replaced it more directly with its specific meaning. The audience is very similar indeed. And are these that Paul addresses Acts 28 also all born-again believers? Read even Romans 1:28 and this together with all the other scripture reviews should also reveal that 'epignosis' is not just what you think or define it? Epignosis is used about 20 times in the NT...to different audiences, not all born-again folks.

Thanks

APAK

 

[BreadOfLife]

BOL: over a few years now I've asked you why you think, using your short-sighted view of the Greek term epignosis that it only applies to a 'born-again' audience as in Heb 10:26-27. And then you must also believe that the entire Hebrews, Chapter 10 must also address only born-again folks. Why?

And why are you so interested in those born-again folks as your religion tells you that no one knows they are saved until after death. And again you still insist that Heb 10:26-27 does....why?

Can you provide Paul's audience and context in your answer of Hebrews 10. As well as how epignosis is used in this context. It should also reveal why he accented epignosis and faith to his audience. And yes, Paul also used this type of language in Acts 28:23-28. He did not use the term epignosis explicitly there but replaced it more directly with its specific meaning. The audience is very similar indeed. And are these that Paul addresses Acts 28 also all born-again believers? Read even Romans 1:28 and this together with all the other scripture reviews should also reveal that 'epignosis' is not just what you think or define it? Epignosis is used about 20 times in the NT...to different audiences, not all born-again folks.

Thanks

APAK

First of all – I never said that ALL of the people being written to in Hebrews were “saved”.
I said that the WARNING in Hebrews was to those with an Epignosis of Christ.

Furthermore – I have presented AMPLE scholarly evidence that my view of “Epignosis” is anything but “short-sighted”. MOST of the evidence I presented was from Protestant scholarly sources.

And, finally – NO – Paul didn’t use this term in Acts 28. Not sure why you think I implied that every use of this word must be used when addressing born again believers. “Epignosis” can be used when writing to ATHEISTS – but not about atheists. The warning in Hebrews is ABOUT born-again believers . . .

 

[APAK]

First of all – I never said that ALL of the people being written to in Hebrews were “saved”.
I said that the WARNING in Hebrews was to those with an Epignosis of Christ.

Furthermore – I have presented AMPLE scholarly evidence that my view of “Epignosis” is anything but “short-sighted”. MOST of the evidence I presented was from Protestant scholarly sources.

And, finally – NO – Paul didn’t use this term in Acts 28. Not sure why you think I implied that every use of this word must be used when addressing born again believers. “Epignosis” can be used when writing to ATHEISTS – but not about atheists. The warning in Hebrews is ABOUT born-again believers . . .

So again, why do you think Hebrews 10 is about born-again believers? Without placing words into your mouth, so epignosis of Christ to you means born-again folks? right?

 

[APAK]

@BreadOfLife Hint: Hebrews and Acts 28 and other areas are all about those that that faithfully practiced and believed in their inadequate/incomplete Laws of the OT. Paul insists they keep this faith to Christ and not faint or lack faith in Christ, fall away in this NEW faith and thus willfully sin. He begs them to now continue in the epignosis of Christ etc in faith and BE saved. If not they/those that discard their epignosis when it is received, in their hearts, face the wrath of God as other heathens and shall never BE SAVED (future tense) or see the Kingdom as explicitly said in Acts 28.

check mate and game @BreadOfLife !

 

[Philip James]

This NT word, as Translated means to be "one with"....."joined".

Which is exactly what happens when we receive the Eucharist.
The Groom giving Himself to His bride, and she receiving Him..
The two made one flesh...

'this is a great mystery, but I speak of Christ and His Church'

Peace be with you!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

 

[BreadOfLife]

So again, why do you think Hebrews 10 is about born-again believers?

Without placing words into your mouth, so epignosis of Christ to you means born-again folks? right?

I see you're NOT big on paying attention - are you?
I'm not sure HOW many time I need to define Epignosis or present scholary evidence on the meaning of Epignosis for you to understand the implications of this word.

This isn't about what I think - it is a Biblical and linguistic reality that Epignosis can ONLY be attributed to truly converted, born-again believers.
YOUR simplistic rejection of this reality doesn't "magically" change its meaning . . .

@BreadOfLife Hint: Hebrews and Acts 28 and other areas are all about those that that faithfully practiced and believed in their inadequate/incomplete Laws of the OT. Paul insists they keep this faith to Christ and not faint or lack faith in Christ, fall away in this NEW faith and thus willfully sin. He begs them to now continue in the epignosis of Christ etc in faith and BE saved. If not they/those that discard their epignosis when it is received, in their hearts, face the wrath of God as other heathens and shall never BE SAVED (future tense) or see the Kingdom as explicitly said in Acts 28.

WRONG - but thank you for illustrating your complete ignorance of "Epignosis".

The Epignosis spoken of in both Heb. 10:26-27 and 2 Pet. 2:20-22 is NOT spoken of in Acts 28. It is NEVER mentioned in Acts 28.
Perhaps you need to read the Protestant scholarly definitions of Epignosis for it to sink in. Only then, might you understand that Epignosis is NOT something you have on the way to having faith and being justified. It defines a person who HAS true faith and is justified.

Richard Chenevix Trench
“In comparing epignosis with gnosis, the “epi” must be regarded as an intensive use of a preposition that gives the compound word a greater strength than the simple word alone possesses” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

Quoting Culverwell, he writes, “Epignosis and gnosis differ. Epignosis is the complete comprehension after the first knowledge (gnosin) of a matter. It is bringing me better acquainted with a thing I knew before; a more exact viewing of an object that I saw before afar off. That little portion of knowledge which we had here shall be much improved, our eye shall be raised to see the things more strongly and clearly” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

He goes on to say on the same page, “All Paul’s uses of epignosis justify and bear out this distinction. This same intensive use of epignosis is confirmed by similar passages in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It also was recognized by the Greek fathers. Thus Chrysostom stated: ‘You knew (egnote), but it is necessary to know thoroughly (epignonai).”

J.B. Lightfoot
“The compound epignosis is an advance upon gnosis, denoting a larger and more thorough knowledge...Hence also epignosis is used especially of the knowledge of God and of Christ, as being the perfection of knowledge” (St. Paul’s Epistles to the Colossians and Philemon, page 138).

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words
“epignosis, akin to A, No. 3, denotes "exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition,"

The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (page 237):
1. Precise and correct knowledge
2. Knowledge of things ethical and divine
3. Of God, especially knowledge of His holy will and of the blessings which He has bestowed and constantly bestows on men through Christ
4. Of Christ, i.e., the true knowledge of Christ’s nature, dignity, benefits
5. Of God and Christ, i.e., to keep the knowledge of the one true God which has illumined the soul

Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25:
1. Knowledge as recognition of the will of God that is effective in the conduct of the one who knows God
2. Christian faith


Get it, NOW?

 

[APAK]

My contention really is not about your epignosis or what you think epignosis means. I believe we are over that by now, or you should be. It is about how you apply it in particular scripture, beyond the many ways you are proud to define it. Move beyond the definition of epignosis and concentrate on what it is attached to ......what audience and what other things such as faith, lack of faith, willfully sinning etc and these all HAVE TO match and be in congruence. This is the difficulty I see you are having here.

Get over that Hebrews 10:26 is about already born-again folks. It is not, as I pointed out. And you try to shout people down saying it is and you yourself cannot defend your stance, even vaguely....that is the circle of thought you stay in and dare not wander out of. You keep bringing up epignosis of Christ and that is a ruse to attempt to sway others.....that is really not the concern...and you must know it.

All I can say is BOL, read the context of Hebrews 10.....every thought, every phrase and verse in sequence...Paul builds up from the Law, the past faith in it, of the Hebrews and then their new faith in Christ as given personally as epignosis....they are Hebrews! It is about the Hebrews transitioning between the OT Law and NT under grace....that should give you a hint in what Paul is warning THEM about...you know that many of those under the Law and after Christ discarded the epignosis of Christ and 'died.' This is Paul's concern.....why cannot you see this?

You have twisted this Hebrew 10:26 beyond recognition for your own selfish purposes to deny believing in salvation through any means besides only the RCC.

It does not work on me and I hope others don't fall for your constant %&$$#$ and babble

Blessings,

APAK

 

[justbyfaith]

Your point about “everlasting” life was already addressed.

No, you haven't adequately addressed it as far as I'm concerned...at least, not to the point where you have been able to convince me of your pov.

Note what I said to you:

"You have to deal with the word everlasting and what it means if you are going to make your point.

From your pov, Jesus said something like this, in John 6:47...

"Verily, verily, I say to you, He who believeth on me hath everlasting life...but it might only be temporal based on you...so it might not be everlasting...so scratch that part about verily, verily."

Thing is, Jesus didn't add in that last part. What He said was,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

If life is everlasting it cannot come to an end.

Because if it ever comes to an end, it was temporal rather than everlasting.

Therefore if I have everlasting life, my life cannot come to an end...because the nature of my life is that it is everlasting...which means it will last for ever."

Now I think that you don't even really understand my argument...or you would realize that you have not adequately answered it in any way, shape, or form.

 

[justbyfaith]

Also, @BreadOfLife,

you should be certain that I have not been contending for OSAS but for POTS...

And therefore I am in certain agreement with some of your points.

The verse that I think explains my pov most clearly is the following:

1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

That term "for ever" means that the one who does the will of God will never cease to abide.

Now that there is a certain holiness in what I am preaching is evident in the following verse:

1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

 

[justbyfaith]

What I am saying is that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit as believers (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5).

And that in this, the Holy Spirit indwelling us has the power to motivate us to live holy lives (see Philippians 2:13).

As a matter of fact, He changes our very nature so that we cannot do anything but live holy lives (see 2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv)).

We are no longer a dog/swine but a sheep. Remember how I spoke of this earlier in this very thread?

Here: Jesus isn't Catholic

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, you haven't adequately addressed it as far as I'm concerned...at least, not to the point where you have been able to convince me of your pov.

Note what I said to you:

"You have to deal with the word everlasting and what it means if you are going to make your point.

From your pov, Jesus said something like this, in John 6:47...

"Verily, verily, I say to you, He who believeth on me hath everlasting life...but it might only be temporal based on you...so it might not be everlasting...so scratch that part about verily, verily."

Thing is, Jesus didn't add in that last part. What He said was,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

If life is everlasting it cannot come to an end.

Because if it ever comes to an end, it was temporal rather than everlasting.

Therefore if I have everlasting life, my life cannot come to an end...because the nature of my life is that it is everlasting...which means it will last for ever."

Now I think that you don't even really understand my argument...or you would realize that you have not adequately answered it in any way, shape, or form.

Also, @BreadOfLife,

you should be certain that I have not been contending for OSAS but for POTS...

And therefore I am in certain agreement with some of your points.

The verse that I think explains my pov most clearly is the following:

1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

That term "for ever" means that the one who does the will of God will never cease to abide.

Now that there is a certain holiness in what I am preaching is evident in the following verse:

1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

You answered your OWN question with the verses you posted in your second response above.
These verses are CONDITIONS on everlasting life.
He that believeth in me . . .
Whosoever abideth in him . . .
He that doeth the will of God . . .
He who endures to the end . . .

When you CEASE to do those things - you CEASE to have everlasting life. God gives us the ability to continue in faith - but He doesn't FORCE us to follow Him. The PROMISE of everlasting life never goes away - but you don't have to keep it.

I'll make it easier for you:
You're lost at sea and a boat comes along and saves you. You are now SAVED for good - UNLESS you decide to jump off.
That doesn't mean that you weren't saved forever. YOU chose to throw it away.

This is precisely what the Scriptural warnings are about that I listed - which YOU have been running from for about the last 10 pages of posts.

PS - "POVS" (Perserverance of the Saints) is a Calvinist doctrine, which is ALSO defined as "OSAS".
You need to come up with another name for YOUR version of this false doctrine . . .

 

[justbyfaith]

When you CEASE to do those things - you CEASE to have everlasting life.

If you can cease to have everlasting life, it wasn't everlasting life in the first place; it was temporal life. And therefore, if you have everlasting life, you cannot cease to do these things.

You're lost at sea and a boat comes along and saves you. You are now SAVED for good - UNLESS you decide to jump off.
That doesn't mean that you weren't saved forever. YOU chose to throw it away.

So, you're saying that you would have to be an absolute fool in order to lose your salvation. I can agree with that. I will say about it, though, that when the Holy Spirit comes in, a man ceases to be foolish.

PS - "POVS" (Perserverance of the Saints) is a Calvinist doctrine, which is ALSO defined as "OSAS".
You need to come up with another name for YOUR version of this false doctrine . . .

1) POTS isn't false...

2) OSAS is derived from POTS, but is not exactly the same. POTS confers the idea that those who are saved for ever are saints; and that they will persevere unto the end.

Whereas OSAS gives forth the idea that you can say a prayer once and then go and live like hell and you will still go to heaven...that is grace as a license for immorality and is heresy.

 

[justbyfaith]

You answered your OWN question with the verses you posted in your second response above.
These verses are CONDITIONS on everlasting life.
He that believeth in me . . .
Whosoever abideth in him . . .
He that doeth the will of God . . .
He who endures to the end . . .

The point is that those who do these things will abide for ever...therefore they cannot cease to abide, or be saved.

Because real salvation has within it the sealing of the Holy Spirit; so that the Holy Spirit motivates you to live a holy life...He changes your nature so that you cannot do anything but the four things above that you have highlighted in blue. It is regeneration and renewing in the Holy Ghost.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The point is that those who do these things will abide for ever...therefore they cannot cease to abide, or be saved.

Because real salvation has within it the sealing of the Holy Spirit; so that the Holy Spirit motivates you to live a holy life...He changes your nature so that you cannot do anything but the four things above that you have highlighted in blue. It is regeneration and renewing in the Holy Ghost.

WRONG.

They will abide forever IF . . .
They continue to BELIEVE in Him
They continue to ABIDE in Him
They continue to DO His will
They continue to ENDURE in faith

It's all CONDITIONAL on our cooperation.

 

[BreadOfLife]

If you can cease to have everlasting life, it wasn't everlasting life in the first place; it was temporal life. And therefore, if you have everlasting life, you cannot cease to do these things.
So, you're saying that you would have to be an absolute fool in order to lose your salvation. I can agree with that. I will say about it, though, that when the Holy Spirit comes in, a man ceases to be foolish.

For ONLY asa long as He cooperates with God's grace.

1) POTS isn't false...

2) OSAS is derived from POTS, but is not exactly the same. POTS confers the idea that those who are saved for ever are saints; and that they will persevere unto the end.

Whereas OSAS gives forth the idea that you can say a prayer once and then go and live like hell and you will still go to heaven...that is grace as a license for immorality and is heresy.

It's ALL false and unbiblical - no matter WHAT you call it.
"Eternal Security"
"OSAS"
"POTS"

They're ALL man-made inventions.

 

[justbyfaith]

WRONG.

They will abide forever IF . . .
They continue to BELIEVE in Him
They continue to ABIDE in Him
They continue to DO His will
They continue to ENDURE in faith

It's all CONDITIONAL on our cooperation.

Our cooperation is guaranteed by the sealing of the Holy Spirit. For it is God who works within us both to will and to do according to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). And, he also causeth us to walk in His statutes and in His judgments (Ezekiel 36:25-27). And, He who began a good work in me will be faithful to complete it until the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:6).

I will...

continue to believe in Him...
continue to abide in Him (for ever)...
continue to do His will...
continue to endure in faith...

Because He has changed me on the inside so that it is in my very nature to do these things. For I have been "born again".

I am a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv)).

 

[justbyfaith]

For ONLY asa long as He cooperates with God's grace.

You capitalized "He". Are you speaking of Jesus? Jesus has to cooperate with God's grace in order to continue to have salvation?

This illustrates my point quite nicely; for it should be clear that those who are born again of the Holy Spirit are in Christ (1 John 5:20).

There is an utter ridiculousness in your statement that Jesus has to cooperate with God's grace in order to continue to be saved. It is written,

Rev 1:18, I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Now, I'm certain that you rightly interpret this verse to mean that Jesus can never die again.

How is it, then, that you do not interpret verses that say similar things about the believer, to mean the same thing?

For example,

Jhn 11:25, Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:26, And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Jhn 11:27, She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Clearly, this is speaking of spiritual life and death; for there are many throughout church history who have "lived and believed in Him" who also died physically. Jesus told Peter (John 21:18-19) and Peter told the church (2 Peter 1:14-15) that he would die physically and therefore eternal life does not mean that a man will never physically die, but that his last breath on earth will be his first breath in heaven. Therefore our eternal life is our spiritual life.

 

[justbyfaith]

For ONLY asa long as He cooperates with God's grace.

It's ALL false and unbiblical - no matter WHAT you call it.
"Eternal Security"
"OSAS"
"POTS"

They're ALL man-made inventions.

Nope. They are taught clearly in the word of the Lord.

 

[APAK]

You answered your OWN question with the verses you posted in your second response above.
These verses are CONDITIONS on everlasting life.
He that believeth in me . . .
Whosoever abideth in him . . .
He that doeth the will of God . . .
He who endures to the end . . .

When you CEASE to do those things - you CEASE to have everlasting life. God gives us the ability to continue in faith - but He doesn't FORCE us to follow Him. The PROMISE of everlasting life never goes away - but you don't have to keep it.

I'll make it easier for you:
You're lost at sea and a boat comes along and saves you. You are now SAVED for good - UNLESS you decide to jump off.
That doesn't mean that you weren't saved forever. YOU chose to throw it away.

This is precisely what the Scriptural warnings are about that I listed - which YOU have been running from for about the last 10 pages of posts.

PS - "POVS" (Perserverance of the Saints) is a Calvinist doctrine, which is ALSO defined as "OSAS".
You need to come up with another name for YOUR version of this false doctrine . . .

You are an incoherent nutcase.....I have no other words for you at this time....you are the living example of why many die-hard RCs cannot do scripture and context together...next to impossible..and you know why...your religion gets in the way of your brain and thinking....later on then BOL....APAK