Purgatory and Praying to Saints in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[Berserk]

Since my critics have no answer for my biblical defense of Purgatory, it is time to move on to praying to the saints, something I don't do myself, but have the highest respect for the miracles experienced by Catholics who do. See if you know your Bible well enough to identify the verses that support claims (1)-(5) below. I will quote the correct texts in a future post.

The Bible expresses the following insights relevant to praying to saints:
(1) Catholics pray for souls in Purgatory and Paul approves of praying for the dead.
(2) Deceased saints intercede with God on our behalf.
(3) Deceased saints monitor our progress here on earth, cheer us on, and support us in our struggles. (4) Interventions by deceased saints were well known to Jesus' followers and were revered by the Jews of Jesus' day. (5) Christians in our age have reported spectacular communications and interventions from deceased saints.

None of this teaches us to pray to the dead. On the other hand, (1)-(5) are quite compatible with praying to the dead, i. e. with asking dead saints to intercede with God on our behalf in the same way we might ask our church family to pray for us.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

The sick/depraved can enter the kingdom...of course they must repent so that they are no longer sick/depraved...But they are to come as they are...as sick/depraved. Because the Lord catches the fish first and then He cleans them. So then, repentance will come as the result of being forgiven, for many (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19).

No ! there is a list of who can not enter the Kingdom of God. the can't because they are not Saved, they do not know Jesus, for if they did they would not be depraved, but in lightened.
The Sickly depraved are not worthy of Jesus Christ, because they most likely have two masters. that's why Jesus says he never knew them. it's because they do not know Jesus Christ in fact, they may know of him ? but that is a big difference. they do not abide in him you see and they do the works of man and not Christ Jesus.

 

[justbyfaith]

No ! there is a list of who can not enter the Kingdom of God. the can't because they are not Saved, they do not know Jesus, for if they did they would not be depraved, but in lightened.
The Sickly depraved are not worthy of Jesus Christ, because they most likely have two masters. that's why Jesus says he never knew them. it's because they do not know Jesus Christ in fact, they may know of him ? but that is a big difference. they do not abide in him you see and they do the works of man and not Christ Jesus.

This is what the holy scripture says:

Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Jesus is the God who justifieth the ungodly person. He catches the fish and then He cleans them. It is not said in vain that you ought to "Come as you are."

A homosexual coming to Christ is like an Ethiopian who cannot change the color of his skin or a leopard that cannot change his spots. He cannot "turn over a leaf" and then come to Christ, after he has "made himself worthy"...he is to come to Christ with all of his sins..."warts and all"...and Christ will clean him up.

Hope this helps.

 

[kcnalp]

Gonna be a lot of disappointed Catholics who find themselves in Hell fire forever and ever!

 

[marks]

FWIW . . . I also have a much easier time reading posts that are set in short paragraphs. The longer blocks of text are hard on my eyes for some reason, and I have a harder time following.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Famed evangelical apologist C. S. Lewis embraced this doctrine and famously said, "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside."

As much as I like CS Lewis, I can't agree with this. People will be cast into their eternal punishment, and it will be torment, The Great Divorce notwithstanding.

But my real issue with this idea of purgatory is that it seems to me to make our reconciliation to God less than complete.

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

Even Jesus said of those fixed in their vaulted 'theological' views, 'leave them, they are blind guides......' Debating with the prejudiced, closed minded, religious zealots has never been constructive in my experience......the short circuit is to just leave them. God will deal with it in his own time.

 

[Berserk]

1. 1. The Apostle's Creed contains this faith affirmation: "I believe in the communion of saints." The doctrine of the Communion of Saints refers to the interconnected community, living and dead, of all saints on Earth, in Heaven, and yes, even in Purgatory. Hebrews 12:1-2 provides one biblical anchor for this inspiring doctrine:
      "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses ("martyres"), let us also lay aside every weight and sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith."
      
      This text offers a beautiful image of the Christian life as a great athletic contest taking place in a huge stadium, a contest witnessed by deceased saints who have entered similar athletic contests in ages past and are now cheering us on and supporting us as we strive for victory. This image cannot be limited to the examples of the OT heroes of faith listed in Hebrews 11 because we are not simply preceded by witnesses; we are currently surrounded by them. Indeed, in Hebrews the Greek word "martyres" always means "eyewitnesses."
      
      In our worship the kingdom of God has truly come to us and we literally come to the invisible realm of "the heavenly Jerusalem" and to the deceased "spirits of the righteous" who have gone on before us:
      
      "But you have come...to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,...and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits [deceased, but now alive] of the righteous made perfect (Hebrews 12:22-23)."
      
      What a thrilling revelation it is to learn that our deceased loved ones can monitor our progress and remain informed about what God is doing in earthly lives: "I tell you, there will be more joy in Heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous persons who need no repentance (Luke 15:7)." This joy and awareness of earthly events are shared by angels and deceased saints alike:
      
      "Suddenly they [Peter, James, and John] saw 2 men, Moses and Elijah, talking to Him. They appeared in glory and were speaking of His departure, which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem (Luke 9:30-31)."
      
      And how do deceased saints support us and send us aid? Primarily through their intercessory prayers. Catholics pray to deceased saints to obtain their prayer support in making effective petitions before the throne of God. Revelation provides a good of example of deceased saints who are aware of our suffering interceding with God to remedy our plight: "I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the witness they had been given; they cried out, "Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?" They were each given a white robe and told to rest a little while until their number would be complete both of their fellow servants and of their brethren who were soon to be killed as they themselves had been killed (Revelation 6:9-11)." If asked. deceased saints reinforce our petitions by bringing them before Christ, the Lamb: "When He [the Lamb, Christ] had taken the scroll,...the 24 elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and a golden bowls, full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints (both living and deceased--Revelation 5:8)."
   2. 
      Dr. Eugene Boring's Commentary explains the historical background and role of these elders:
      "The triumphant authority of these 24 is signified by their crowns and white garments (cp. 2:10; 6:11; 7:9)...These 24 elders represent...a kind of heavenly counterpart to the continuing People of God on Earth (12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles...who are called to reign through faithfulness (p. 106)."
      
      "The title "Lord and God" (4:8) is paralleled by Domitian's insistence that he be addressed by this title. The 24 elders may be influenced by the 24 lictors who surrounded Domitian. The act of the 24 elders placing their crowns before the throne om 4:10 calls to mind Tacitus's report that the Parthian King Tiridates placed his diadem before the image of Nero to give homage to the Roman emperor (p. 103)."
      
      From the biblical era, the most dramatic example of effective intercessory prayer offered by deceased saints is reported in 2 Maccabees 15:12-16. Right before the decisive battle against the Syrian Greeks, Judas Maccabaeus, the Jewish military leader, shares his vision of the late high priest Onias III and the prophet Jeremiah praying for their victory:
      
      "Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it, he addressed him thus: "Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries (15:15-16)."
      
      Jeremiah's role in the improbable Maccabean victory prompts some of Jesus' followers to believe that He ministers as Jeremiah raised from the dead (Matthew 16:14). Evangelicals have no adequate response to the biblical basis for the Catholic doctrine of Communion of the Saints as spelled out in this thread. Ironically, Evangelicals have no biblical basis for their common practice of praying directly to Jesus in direct defiance of His expressed wishes. Jesus confesses: "My Father is greater than I (John 14:28)," and so, Jesus' model prayer teaches us to pray to "Our Father," not to Jesus! Jesus teaches us to pray to the Father in Jesus's name: "On that day you will ask nothing of Me. Very truly I tell you, if you ask anything of the Father in my name, He will give it to you (John 16:23)." Or perhaps Evangelicals might appeal to inspired Catholic tradition and use that as a basis for directing prayers to Jesus. As a Pentecostal United Methodist, I have never prayed to the saints myself. Catholics testify to many spectacular miracles achieved by doing so and I find their biblical case for the practice intriguing. We rightly ask other believers to pray for us. Why shouldn't we ask deceased saints to do the same? In my next planned post I will give some contemporary examples of deceased saints responding to our cries for help.
   
   
   
   
   

 

[Lavender Purple]

From what I found out purgatory is a man made term and not in the bible and praying to saints is idolatry. This is why I want to become a christian. But I'm worried I am not saved and so if my family. They are Catholics. My mom was a catholic but she is now deceased. I think my dad too and he's deceased also. I'm deeply worried of where they are now (mom and dead) and where my family will end up after death

 

[Berserk]

From what I found out purgatory is a man made term and not in the bible and praying to saints is idolatry. This is why I want to become a christian.

True, the word "Purgatory" is not biblical, but "Purgatory" means postmortem "realm of purgation or purification" and such a realm is solidly biblical. Read my post earlier in the thread that demonstates this. Praying to the saints is not idolatry because it's like asking a mature Christian friend to pray for you. In other words, you know from Scripture that the dead monitor the lives of the living and pray for them. [For biblical proof see my post above.] So you just reach out them and ask them to pray to God on your behalf or on behalf of your Mom.

 

[Lavender Purple]

True, the word "Purgatory" is not biblical, but "Purgatory" means postmortem "realm of purgation or purification" and such a realm is solidly biblical. Read my post earlier in the thread that demonstates this. Praying to the saints is not idolatry because it's like asking a mature Christian friend to pray for you. In other words, you know from Scripture that the dead monitor the lives of the living and pray for them. [For biblical proof see my post above.] So you just reach out them and ask them to pray to God on your behalf or on behalf of your Mom.

But I fear my family will go to the underworld. My grandma says there's no hell and a couple of people I know say this. And I fear my mom, dad, aunt, and grandparents are not with the lord and Jesus

 

[Berserk]

Why do you fear this?

 

[Lavender Purple]

Why do you fear this?

kcnalp's quote :
"Gonna be a lot of disappointed Catholics who find themselves in Hell fire forever and ever!"

Plus I'm reading other views on the catholic religion

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

True, the word "Purgatory" is not biblical, but "Purgatory" means postmortem "realm of purgation or purification" and such a realm is solidly biblical. Read my post earlier in the thread that demonstates this. Praying to the saints is not idolatry because it's like asking a mature Christian friend to pray for you. In other words, you know from Scripture that the dead monitor the lives of the living and pray for them. [For biblical proof see my post above.] So you just reach out them and ask them to pray to God on your behalf or on behalf of your Mom.

Jesus says he is the God of the Living.
Not to mention I do not see the Saints that have gone to Heaven as being dead.
Praying for the Saints to help you is worthy for the Soul and nothing in such is outside of Jesus Christ.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

kcnalp's quote :
"Gonna be a lot of disappointed Catholics who find themselves in Hell fire forever and ever!"

Plus I'm reading other views on the catholic religion

You mean by Roman Catholic, well that's true as it is with all denominations in fact.
Anyone who follows a Church is condemned, it's Jesus Christ that one truly needs, as it's only in him that one is saved, no Church saved anyone.

But as of a Catholic you are incorrect, no one goes to Heaven but a Catholic in fact, outside of being Catholic their is nothing to do with Jesus Christ in fact.
All the Protestant Churches I went to claimed to be a Catholic Church you know. now if they made a claim of not being Catholic, they would be truly ignorant.

Catholic does not mean Roman at all, they declared themselves Catholic, just as the C of E makes the same claim that it is Catholic as does the Lutheran Church makes the claim that it is Catholic.
I do not know if the Methodist do claim such, I can't remember them stating such back in the 70's.

But anyroad what is the true Church ? Non of them ! from what I have seen in their works, especially nowadays even Pope Frances who is totally terrified of even mentioning the name Jesus Christ in fear of offending his Jewish masters and the Islamic rabble. he has proven himself to worships Political Correctness, so he is a bastard just like the Nazis and Communist murdering Godless devils, who idolised used that same tool to undermine the people and stood over them all just like a mongrel dog.
Remember what Jesus Christ said of who were of their Father of Lies.

 

[quietthinker]

The Apostle's Creed contains this faith affirmation: "I believe in the communion of saints." The doctrine of the Communion of Saints refers to the interconnected community, living and dead, of all saints on Earth, in Heaven, and yes, even in Purgatory. Hebrews 12:1-2 provides one biblical anchor for this inspiring doctrine:
"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses ("martyres"), let us also lay aside every weight and sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith."

This explanation is unadulterated gobbledy gook, Berserk. You join the dots alright but you join the ear to the foot and the mouth to the tail etc. The picture emerging is a mess and to use scripture to underpin your theory is nothing less than bearing false witness.

 

[Lavender Purple]

You mean by Roman Catholic, well that's true as it is with all denominations in fact.
Anyone who follows a Church is condemned, it's Jesus Christ that one truly needs, as it's only in him that one is saved, no Church saved anyone.

But as of a Catholic you are incorrect, no one goes to Heaven but a Catholic in fact, outside of being Catholic their is nothing to do with Jesus Christ in fact.
All the Protestant Churches I went to claimed to be a Catholic Church you know. now if they made a claim of not being Catholic, they would be truly ignorant.

Catholic does not mean Roman at all, they declared themselves Catholic, just as the C of E makes the same claim that it is Catholic as does the Lutheran Church makes the claim that it is Catholic.
I do not know if the Methodist do claim such, I can't remember them stating such back in the 70's.

But anyroad what is the true Church ? Non of them ! from what I have seen in their works, especially nowadays even Pope Frances who is totally terrified of even mentioning the name Jesus Christ in fear of offending his Jewish masters and the Islamic rabble. he has proven himself to worships Political Correctness, so he is a bastard just like the Nazis and Communist murdering Godless devils, who idolised used that same tool to undermine the people and stood over them all just like a mongrel dog.
Remember what Jesus Christ said of who were of their Father of Lies.

So what do I do?

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

So what do I do?

Just have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, serve only in him.

I would not worry yourself to much about others and just look towards Jesus in the Bible, get a Bible with the words of Jesus in Red, I found that helps.
As long as you truly love Jesus Christ all the rest you need will come to your Soul, we can't help them only the Holy Spirit can do that. we can help encourage others tho as to of our faith, if they ask of us. in this way I find they may want to listen and the other way, one is only banging your head up against the wall. we have to learn to let go of some things, in a way that's best not to struggle with as such produces nothing but heart felt lose.

Jesus Christ is the God of the Living he says and not the dead, so in him we truly have life in abundance that produce fruit in our Lord Jesus.

 

[marksman]

1. 1. The Apostle's Creed contains this faith affirmation: "I believe in the communion of saints." The doctrine of the Communion of Saints refers to the interconnected community, living and dead, of all saints on Earth, in Heaven, and yes, even in Purgatory. Hebrews 12:1-2 provides one biblical anchor for this inspiring doctrine:
      "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses ("martyres"), let us also lay aside every weight and sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith."
      
      This text offers a beautiful image of the Christian life as a great athletic contest taking place in a huge stadium, a contest witnessed by deceased saints who have entered similar athletic contests in ages past and are now cheering us on and supporting us as we strive for victory. This image cannot be limited to the examples of the OT heroes of faith listed in Hebrews 11 because we are not simply preceded by witnesses; we are currently surrounded by them. Indeed, in Hebrews the Greek word "martyres" always means "eyewitnesses."
      
      In our worship the kingdom of God has truly come to us and we literally come to the invisible realm of "the heavenly Jerusalem" and to the deceased "spirits of the righteous" who have gone on before us:
      
      "But you have come...to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,...and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits [deceased, but now alive] of the righteous made perfect (Hebrews 12:22-23)."
      
      What a thrilling revelation it is to learn that our deceased loved ones can monitor our progress and remain informed about what God is doing in earthly lives: "I tell you, there will be more joy in Heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous persons who need no repentance (Luke 15:7)." This joy and awareness of earthly events are shared by angels and deceased saints alike:
      
      "Suddenly they [Peter, James, and John] saw 2 men, Moses and Elijah, talking to Him. They appeared in glory and were speaking of His departure, which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem (Luke 9:30-31)."
      
      And how do deceased saints support us and send us aid? Primarily through their intercessory prayers. Catholics pray to deceased saints to obtain their prayer support in making effective petitions before the throne of God. Revelation provides a good of example of deceased saints who are aware of our suffering interceding with God to remedy our plight: "I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the witness they had been given; they cried out, "Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?" They were each given a white robe and told to rest a little while until their number would be complete both of their fellow servants and of their brethren who were soon to be killed as they themselves had been killed (Revelation 6:9-11)." If asked. deceased saints reinforce our petitions by bringing them before Christ, the Lamb: "When He [the Lamb, Christ] had taken the scroll,...the 24 elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and a golden bowls, full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints (both living and deceased--Revelation 5:8)."
   2. 
      Dr. Eugene Boring's Commentary explains the historical background and role of these elders:
      "The triumphant authority of these 24 is signified by their crowns and white garments (cp. 2:10; 6:11; 7:9)...These 24 elders represent...a kind of heavenly counterpart to the continuing People of God on Earth (12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles...who are called to reign through faithfulness (p. 106)."
      
      "The title "Lord and God" (4:8) is paralleled by Domitian's insistence that he be addressed by this title. The 24 elders may be influenced by the 24 lictors who surrounded Domitian. The act of the 24 elders placing their crowns before the throne om 4:10 calls to mind Tacitus's report that the Parthian King Tiridates placed his diadem before the image of Nero to give homage to the Roman emperor (p. 103)."
      
      From the biblical era, the most dramatic example of effective intercessory prayer offered by deceased saints is reported in 2 Maccabees 15:12-16. Right before the decisive battle against the Syrian Greeks, Judas Maccabaeus, the Jewish military leader, shares his vision of the late high priest Onias III and the prophet Jeremiah praying for their victory:
      
      "Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it, he addressed him thus: "Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries (15:15-16)."
      
      Jeremiah's role in the improbable Maccabean victory prompts some of Jesus' followers to believe that He ministers as Jeremiah raised from the dead (Matthew 16:14). Evangelicals have no adequate response to the biblical basis for the Catholic doctrine of Communion of the Saints as spelled out in this thread. Ironically, Evangelicals have no biblical basis for their common practice of praying directly to Jesus in direct defiance of His expressed wishes. Jesus confesses: "My Father is greater than I (John 14:28)," and so, Jesus' model prayer teaches us to pray to "Our Father," not to Jesus! Jesus teaches us to pray to the Father in Jesus's name: "On that day you will ask nothing of Me. Very truly I tell you, if you ask anything of the Father in my name, He will give it to you (John 16:23)." Or perhaps Evangelicals might appeal to inspired Catholic tradition and use that as a basis for directing prayers to Jesus. As a Pentecostal United Methodist, I have never prayed to the saints myself. Catholics testify to many spectacular miracles achieved by doing so and I find their biblical case for the practice intriguing. We rightly ask other believers to pray for us. Why shouldn't we ask deceased saints to do the same? In my next planned post I will give some contemporary examples of deceased saints responding to our cries for help.

I do not see any reference to purgatory or dead saints in Hebrews 12:1

I do not see any reference to purgatory in Hebrews 12:22

There is no mention of deceased saints in Luke 15.

There is no mention of deceased saints talking to him in Luke 9.

In Revelation 6 the deceased saints were told to rest, not intercede.

No designation of living and deceased saints in revelation 5.

Boring's commentary which you have quoted does not mention purgatory or deceased saints.

The paragraph about the tile Lord God has nothing at all to do with purgatory and the deceased saints.

Maccabees is not part of scripture so it is not authoritative.

Evangelicals have no adequate response to the biblical basis for the Catholic doctrine of Communion of the Saints as spelled out in this thread.

It seems your only basis is speculation as to what certain scriptures mean. And as all the scriptures you have listed do not mention deceased saints or purgatory on the basis of exegesis, they do not exist (except in your mind).

Evangelicals have no biblical basis for their common practice of praying directly to Jesus in direct defiance of His expressed wishes.

And you and anyone who thinks as you do have no biblical basis for praying to dead saints.

"On that day you will ask nothing of Me. Very truly I tell you, if you ask anything of the Father in my name, He will give it to you (John 16:23)."

In my name. Whose name? The name of Jesus. What is there about that you do not understand?

We rightly ask other believers to pray for us. Why shouldn't we ask deceased saints to do the same?

I will tell you why. Because they are dead and generally speaking dead people don't do anything because they are.....dead.

 

[marksman]

As much as I like CS Lewis, I can't agree with this. People will be cast into their eternal punishment, and it will be torment, The Great Divorce notwithstanding.

But my real issue with this idea of purgatory is that it seems to me to make our reconciliation to God less than complete.

Much love!

It was an invention( (one of many) of the catholic church to either get money out of people or keep them in fear and trembling so that the priest could have power over the people.