John MacArthur says you have nothing to do with being "born again"

[justbyfaith]

So, you don't agree that in the matter of birth, you have nothing to do with it? It seems to me that for you, in the matter of birth, you believe that you have something to do with it. Do you really honestly believe that? Perhaps you can convince yourself that and say that to me with ease. But can you honestly say that to your parents? Can you honestly say that to God?

Tong
R1094

I know that when I was born again, I had a part in it. I said a prayer. And the Lord confirmed the salvation that He wrought within me by coming over me in waves of liquid love: a joy unspeakable and full of glory and a peace that surpasses all understanding.

Fact is, our surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ (repentance) is a requirement for salvation.

That is something we do.

 

[Tong2020]

I know that when I was born again, I had a part in it. I said a prayer. And the Lord confirmed the salvation that He wrought within me by coming over me in waves of liquid love: a joy unspeakable and full of glory and a peace that surpasses all understanding.

Fact is, our surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ (repentance) is a requirement for salvation.

That is something we do.

So you know that you were born again, and that you had a part in that second birth. You are saying then that you can face God and say to Him that your being born again, is not solely His doing, but that it is also your doing. That's what you are saying and claiming, right? Well....

By the way, may I ask, what do you believe as to why you accepted and believed in the gospel of Jesus Christ? What do you know as to the reason why others reject that same gospel which you accepted?

Tong
R1097

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi @Tong2020,

I will give you a short testimony.

I had read a book on how to write that gave the advice that when you write, there is a demon or a stag on your shoulder and that you sometimes cooperate with it and at other times struggle against it to produce what's called "voice" in your writing.

I used the techniques in the book to write a gruesome poem as an assignment for my Creative Writing class in the 11th grade. And the students applauded; and the teacher praised the work saying that the rhyming was like icing on the cake and that if he had not seen me in the process fo writing it, he would have thought that I had plagiarized it from Edgar Allen Poe or some other such author.

I went home that night and was tempted to sell my soul to the devil.

But I remembered that at the church that I had attended in the 7th grade, the verse had been quoted, that "What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world and yet forfeits his soul?"

But I couldn't sit on the fence any longer; so I said to the Lord, "God, I don't know if You're real; but I'm going to start reading Your word and doing what it says; and I know that if You're real, You will reveal Yourself to me."

He didn't wait to reveal Himself to me. He came over me in waves of liquid love; joy unspeakable and full of glory and a peace that surpasses all understanding. I think that I may have been in heaven for about four minutes; but my eyes were blinded to the realities of sight there. But I feel that i was face-to-face with Jesus; and told Him, "I have to go back and tell people about this love!" After a short conversation, I was returned to earth.

There is a sense in which God did all of that.

However, I know that there was always the possibility that I might not have responded as I did. What if I had sold my soul to the devil? That is a choice that I believe I could have made; but of course the Lord wouldn't allow it. He gave to me as a gift my experience of hearing a message at a church four years earlier.

I know that there have been people who did sell their souls to the devil. Why was I spared? I suppose that it was predestination. In 1 Corinthians 15 it says that we may of chance be wheat (compare to the parable of the wheat and the tares). And in Ecclesiastes it is written that time and chance happen to everything.

I do believe that I made the choice not to sell my soul to the devil. That it was influenced by my experience is not in question.

I always considered that I had made a choice to reach out to God. Of course the holy scriptures are clear in teaching that He chose me first (John 15:16). And I know that from God's perspective of dwelling in eternity, I could not have made any other choice; because God saw me making that choice from eternity past, eternity present, and eternity future. But from my perspective of existing in time, the choice was before me as I contemplated what decision I was going to make.

Hope this helps.

 

[Candidus]

So you believe that, in the matter of birth, you have something to do with it. Well, apparently you can convince yourself that and believe that. But can you honestly say that to your parents? Can you honestly say that to God?

Tong
R1096

As many do, you overplay the use of an anthropomorphism. So, you must believe that God is a Giant Chicken, because the Bible says that he will protect us with His feathers and His wings. You can convince yourself it is not true!

No one will be in Hell, for God is Love, and no loving Father would ever let one of their Children go to such a place as Hell. The Bible says that God is not willing that any should perish, and we know that God's will must bring God's result. Why would you ever believe anything else?

 

[Tong2020]

Hi @Tong2020,

I will give you a short testimony.

I had read a book on how to write that gave the advice that when you write, there is a demon or a stag on your shoulder and that you sometimes cooperate with it and at other times struggle against it to produce what's called "voice" in your writing.

I used the techniques in the book to write a gruesome poem as an assignment for my Creative Writing class in the 11th grade. And the students applauded; and the teacher praised the work saying that the rhyming was like icing on the cake and that if he had not seen me in the process fo writing it, he would have thought that I had plagiarized it from Edgar Allen Poe or some other such author.

I went home that night and was tempted to sell my soul to the devil.

But I remembered that at the church that I had attended in the 7th grade, the verse had been quoted, that "What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world and yet forfeits his soul?"

But I couldn't sit on the fence any longer; so I said to the Lord, "God, I don't know if You're real; but I'm going to start reading Your word and doing what it says; and I know that if You're real, You will reveal Yourself to me."

He didn't wait to reveal Himself to me. He came over me in waves of liquid love; joy unspeakable and full of glory and a peace that surpasses all understanding. I think that I may have been in heaven for about four minutes; but my eyes were blinded to the realities of sight there. But I feel that i was face-to-face with Jesus; and told Him, "I have to go back and tell people about this love!" After a short conversation, I was returned to earth.

There is a sense in which God did all of that.

However, I know that there was always the possibility that I might not have responded as I did. What if I had sold my soul to the devil? That is a choice that I believe I could have made; but of course the Lord wouldn't allow it. He gave to me as a gift my experience of hearing a message at a church four years earlier.

I know that there have been people who did sell their souls to the devil. Why was I spared? I suppose that it was predestination. In 1 Corinthians 15 it says that we may of chance be wheat (compare to the parable of the wheat and the tares). And in Ecclesiastes it is written that time and chance happen to everything.

I do believe that I made the choice not to sell my soul to the devil. That it was influenced by my experience is not in question.

I always considered that I had made a choice to reach out to God. Of course the holy scriptures are clear in teaching that He chose me first (John 15:16). And I know that from God's perspective of dwelling in eternity, I could not have made any other choice; because God saw me making that choice from eternity past, eternity present, and eternity future. But from my perspective of existing in time, the choice was before me as I contemplated what decision I was going to make.

Hope this helps.

Thank you for your testimony JBF. That is one of many other different testimonies as to how one came to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ. Each Christian have a unique story to tell in that regards which all boils down to the truth that it is God who did all that. That is clear even to you.

Now, as with regards one's choosing, nobody here says that God made the choice for anyone to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ. But while it is the man who make the choice, it is God who enables them, being dead in sin, opening their eyes to see and ears to hear and understand the truth, to make the right choice, thus saving them. And like you said, God chose you first, as also is true of all those being saved. And that choosing of God is without error and is sure, that the chosen will choose God in time, and are saved.

Those who reject the gospel of Jesus Christ only revealed them that they are not among those chosen. These people, even while the gospel is preached to the, they do not hear God's words. And they do not hear God's words and do not believe in the name of the Son of God, Jesus Christ, because they are not of God.

Tong
R1098

 

[marksman]

Again, I am content to let the reader decide. And I am certain that there are some who will disagree with you (specifically, those who have received Jesus into their hearts).

I suppose that the following principle is a curse on faithful preaching:

1Jo 4:5, They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1Jo 4:6, We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Because the teaching is that only those who are already saved will accept faithful preaching when it is offered.

How, then, can anyone be saved who isn't?

In caser you had not noticed, I decided.

 

[Tong2020]

As many do, you overplay the use of an anthropomorphism. So, you must believe that God is a Giant Chicken, because the Bible says that he will protect us with His feathers and His wings. You can convince yourself it is not true!

No one will be in Hell, for God is Love, and no loving Father would ever let one of their Children go to such a place as Hell. The Bible says that God is not willing that any should perish, and we know that God's will must bring God's result. Why would you ever believe anything else?

Well that is not my thinking Candidus. Perhaps others, but not me. Jesus told Nicodemus that unless one is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Jesus is clearly talking about a birth that would enable one to see the kingdom of God. He said that in response to what Nicodemus said to Jesus, that he knows that Jesus is a teacher come from God. What do you think, how the response of Jesus Christ relate to what Nicodemus said?

Now, those born from above, are they not those born of God? Yes they are. Are they not then the children of God, having been born of God? Yes they are. Were they born of their own will or of the will of man? No they were not? Whose will is it then? Yes, it is of the will of God. And the rest who were not born of God, whose children are they? Certainly, they are not the children of God, for they are not born of God. And as you said, no loving Father would ever let one of His children go to such place as hell. And indeed no one of those born of God ever will.

Tong
R1099

 

[07-07-07]

I don't play semantics sir.
"washed us from our sins in his own blood" is a figure of speech. Blood does not wash away sins in the literal sense.

You are playing semantics just like John MacArthur. Jesus had to literally shed His blood to fulfill the Scriptures.

Why would the sinlessness of Jesus' life be necessary for Him to be the lamb of God, if at all it is the literal blood that literally washes away sin? Think about that.

Tong
R1086

God required the Lamb to be without blemish; the sacrifice had to be perfect. The shedding of the blood of THE perfect Lamb of God was necessary to fulfill the Scriptures.

Hebrews 9
[19] For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
[20] Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
[21] Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
[22] And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

 

[CadyandZoe]

what did you have to do with your physical birth ?

Good point. The choice of being born is an absurd notion. We can't choose to be born of the spirit, just as we can't choose to be born of the flesh. The choice is totally out of our hands. We aren't given a choice.

 

[07-07-07]

As I said, "washed us from our sins in his own blood" is a figure of speech. Blood does not wash away sins in the literal sense.

Were you literally washed by the literal blood of Jesus?

Tong
R1092

Again, you are tongue-twisting like MacArthur when it comes to the blood of Jesus. Something is seriously wrong when someone does this, and it certainly does not come from above. At Passover, the Israelites were commanded to kill a Lamb (Jesus) and apply the blood to the door posts and lintel of their doors. When the death angel came and saw the blood, He passed over that home. No blood, no Salvation. If they would have only killed the Lamb without applying the blood, the death angel would have struck that home.

Exodus 12
[21] Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.
[22] And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.
[23] For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.
[24] And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Hi @Enoch111,

The Holy Ghost is absolutely promised as the result of being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins (Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39)...

And while He can be received merely as the result of asking (Luke 11:9-13), He is most definitely promised to those who take the step of such a baptism in their lives.

A person may indeed be born again apart from such baptism; however, I would say that there are those who have become born again through such baptism in that they have received the promised Holy Ghost as the result of baptism in Jesus' Name. For the Holy Ghost is promised, conditionally, to those who receive such a baptism, in Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39.

Your view seems to ignore verse 39, though you quote it. What is the ACTUAL condition for receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit?

The gift of the Holy Spirit is being granted to those whom God calls to himself. (verse 39) What does Peter mean by "called"? In Peter's mind, being called and being chosen are synonymous. 2 Peter 1:10.

 

[Tong2020]

@07-07-07

Tong2020 said:
I don't play semantics sir.
"washed us from our sins in his own blood" is a figure of speech. Blood does not wash away sins in the literal sense.

You are playing semantics just like John MacArthur. Jesus had to literally shed His blood to fulfill the Scriptures.

Sorry to disappoint you as I don't play semantics as you here insist. And I don't say otherwise that Jesus did not literally shed his blood to fulfill the scriptures sir.
_____________________________

Tong2020 said:
Why would the sinlessness of Jesus' life be necessary for Him to be the lamb of God, if at all it is the literal blood that literally washes away sin? Think about that.

God required the Lamb to be without blemish; the sacrifice had to be perfect. The shedding of the blood of THE perfect Lamb of God was necessary to fulfill the Scriptures.

Hebrews 9
[19] For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
[20] Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
[21] Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
[22] And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

That's right, the sacrificial lamb should be without blemish. We know that. The blood sacrifice and ritual is clear from scriptures concerning atonement and purification. We know that too. Apparently you missed the point of my question, that is, why is that? If a lamb had defects, what does that have to do with its blood? What does the blood of the lamb have to do with it being blemished or unblemished?

Tong
R1100

 

[Enoch111]

We can't choose to be born of the spirit, just as we can't choose to be born of the flesh.

But we can choose to either obey the Gospel or disobey the Gospel. And only those who obey the Gospel are born again (John 1:11-13).

 

[Tong2020]

Again, you are tongue-twisting like MacArthur when it comes to the blood of Jesus. Something is seriously wrong when someone does this, and it certainly does not come from above. At Passover, the Israelites were commanded to kill a Lamb (Jesus) and apply the blood to the door posts and lintel of their doors. When the death angel came and saw the blood, He passed over that home. No blood, no Salvation. If they would have only killed the Lamb without applying the blood, the death angel would have struck that home.

Exodus 12
[21] Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.
[22] And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.
[23] For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.
[24] And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.

Is asking you if you were literally washed by the literal blood of Jesus, tongue twisting? Something is seriously wrong when someone says it is.

At Passover (in the Exodus), the Israelites were commanded to kill a Lamb, but that was not Jesus, but was some lamb. In fact, not only was one lamb killed, but one for each household. And how about the Christian, did he kill Jesus the lamb and apply His blood that he is saved? Clearly, here is a misuse of such scriptural passage.

Tong
R1101

 

[JohnDB]

In Ancient Jewish Theology they had a similar debate such as the Fate vs Faith.

And it was framed in the context of Sin.
Because sin was considered to be the thing that cursed people. This sin could be either on a corporate level or individual level that caused various ills in the world.

A sinful lifestyle of parents certainly raised up a sinful child to be more wicked.

But sometimes Godly Parents raised up a wicked child as well...the child turning away from God because of "Corporate Sins" of the community.

The same thing was thought to apply itself with illness and deformities...such as blindness. (Today we have eugenics in the form of abortion)

But they framed this argument with "WHO Sinned?"

So one day Peter asked Jesus this very question of huge theological debate.
And Jesus said in essence that neither side is correct.
But as we read in John's Gospel account that they were so caught up in their proofs for their debate...and disgusted that this miracle of Bartemus seeing again didn't prove either side true or false that they declared Bartemus himself was wicked and sinful and kicked him out.
(Going against their theology of blessing the blessed)
And because of this...they missed on meeting the Messiah Jesus.

It's a huge theme in John...takes up a huge chunk of the book. Maybe it's important.

 

[CadyandZoe]

But we can choose to either obey the Gospel or disobey the Gospel. And only those who obey the Gospel are born again (John 1:11-13).

Right, so being born again is not the result of obeying the gospel. Rather, being born again is the precondition of obeying the gospel.

 

[07-07-07]

Is asking you if you were literally washed by the literal blood of Jesus, tongue twisting? Something is seriously wrong when someone says it is.

At Passover (in the Exodus), the Israelites were commanded to kill a Lamb, but that was not Jesus, but was some lamb. In fact, not only was one lamb killed, but one for each household. And how about the Christian, did he kill Jesus the lamb and apply His blood that he is saved? Clearly, here is a misuse of such scriptural passage.

Tong
R1101

The lamb that was killed represented the perfect Lamb that was to come, Jesus. The OT gives us types and shadows of the real thing. Jesus fulfilled the OT scriptures. The perfect Lamb, Jesus, was offered on the altar of God to shed His blood for the remission of sin. For anyone to minimize the blood of Jesus is either greatly deceived and/or even an imposter; a wolf in the midst of the sheep. From such turn away.

 

[justbyfaith]

In caser you had not noticed, I decided.

And others will decide differently; because just as I see the thing in question as being inherent in those scriptures, so will they.

 

[justbyfaith]

Your view seems to ignore verse 39, though you quote it. What is the ACTUAL condition for receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit?

The gift of the Holy Spirit is being granted to those whom God calls to himself. (verse 39) What does Peter mean by "called"? In Peter's mind, being called and being chosen are synonymous. 2 Peter 1:10.

It is a conditional promise that is also given to as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The condition is clearly baptism in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins.

This would indicate (Romans 8:30) that if anyone is predestinated and called, they will receive this baptism; and in doing so they will be justified and their being glorified is then as good as accomplished.

 

[justbyfaith]

But we can choose to either obey the Gospel or disobey the Gospel. And only those who obey the Gospel are born again (John 1:11-13).

However, they are not born again because they obey the gospel. They obey the gospel because they are born again. They are born again because they believe the gospel.