Robots and Will Worshipers

[Renniks]

That you think God can be evil if He causes something specific and says something specific hints at the lack of reverence you have for Him.

Perhaps absurd according to your standards.

Lol, of course I Don't believe God can be evil because I know he doesn't do evil.
“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.” (James 1:13-14)

 

[Renniks]

Genesis 50:20
But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

What do you think this verse means? It surely says nothing about God causing evil.

 

[Rudometkin]

Lol, of course I Don't believe God can be evil because I know he doesn't do evil.

That you think it is even a logical possibility for God to be evil by doing something specific hints at your lack of reverence for Him.

Anything He does is Good, Holy and Righteous by definition.

 

[Rudometkin]

That's cherry picking. Anyone can do that. But not just anyone can learn the meaning of Scripture.

Much love!

It's Scripture.

Jeremiah 18:1-6
The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Romans 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Romans 9:14-18
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Proverbs 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

 

[Rudometkin]

So, are you truly thinking that God give moral commands to do or not do certain things, and then metaphysically causes the opposite?

Is this your view?

Much love!

Absolutely. Consider David's sin in taking a census.

2 Samuel 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

2 Samuel 24:10
And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the Lord, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O Lord, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.

 

[farouk]

Absolutely. Consider David's sin in taking a census.

2 Samuel 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

2 Samuel 24:10
And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the Lord, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O Lord, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.

@Rudometkin Perhaps it was all a mistaken belief about supposed strength in numbers....instead of in the Lord Himself...

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

If man can make choices apart from God, then is God not the Creator of all things?

God created man to be able to make choices. I believe God created man with free will and because he did create man that way he knew man would be able to choose to obey him or not obey him. It doesn't mean that God created man with free will to abuse free will, but created man with free will to use that free will the way God intended man to use free will, in a way that shows his love for God. It also doesn't mean that God looked into the future to see what Choice Man would make, but instead trusted that man would obey God because of his love for him.

 

[kcnalp]

God knows all of the future!

Acts 15:18 (NKJV)
18 Known to God from eternity are all His works.
John 21:17 (NKJV)
17 "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You."

 

[FollowHim]

Discuss support and implications of the two opposing doctrines regarding 'Free Will' and 'Determinism' below.

Free Will: Man has the power to think on his own apart from God.

Determinism: God controls all things.

This sounds an interesting set of opposing positions, except we need more clarity.
I did not choose to be born. I did not choose the society or circumstance in which I live.
I do not choose the main functions of my life, sleep, need for food, water, breathing.
My free will is making choices within these constraints on the structure and timings of events.

As a human most of my behaviour is learnt and culturally setup through mechanisms we do not understand but are part of.
I have moral choice, debt to many around me emotionally, financially, physically. My free will or choice appears to be whether I honour these debts and give back as much as I receive or aim to exploit and capitalise as best I can on the situations I fall into.

A determinist suggests no behaviour is actually chosen, it is a stimuli and response relationship.
The truth is life is a very close balance between determinist realities and free will realities.

Take adultery. Two people meet and have a mutual good reaction to each other. They have other loyalties and relationships which they can honour or just let the reactions dominate and work through every aspect of their lives. In Christ we have a greater reaction, which puts these fleeting ups and downs into perspective, and through which life and love can flow. So we appreciate the reactions, but in the context of other relationships, and what we have sowed over many years and which is a blessing.

The exercise of free will is sowing to the Lord or sowing to the flesh. The absurdity of hedonism, is the chaos it brings, when the immediate interaction with individuals determines our reactions, when our consistent behaviours and loyalties are the foundation of social existence which is how we survive as a loving, caring society. And hedonism is just fleeting reactions which over time we can learn to turn on and off appropriately, so rather than dominating our lives, we use to our lives to bring glory to Jesus. Amen.

 

[Taken]

CREEPY video.

 

[Rudometkin]

God created man to be able to make choices. I believe God created man with free will and because he did create man that way he knew man would be able to choose to obey him or not obey him. It doesn't mean that God created man with free will to abuse free will, but created man with free will to use that free will the way God intended man to use free will, in a way that shows his love for God. It also doesn't mean that God looked into the future to see what Choice Man would make, but instead trusted that man would obey God because of his love for him.

Thanks for joining in, Barney.

Then what of His knowledge? Do you believe He is all-knowing?

 

[Rudometkin]

@Rudometkin Perhaps it was all a mistaken belief about supposed strength in numbers....instead of in the Lord Himself...

What do you mean, Farouk?

 

[Taken]

That you think it is even a logical possibility for God to be evil by doing something specific hints at your lack of reverence for Him.

Disagree.

Eh. That is you determining an others logic.

Renniks stated he believes and knows God can not do evil.

^ That in no way "hints" or "implies" he gave any consideration or implication or suggestion of OF opposition to his belief and knowing God is NOT evil.

Disagree.

Renniks Remark is esteeming to Gods Reverence.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Rudometkin]

Disagree.

Eh. That is you determining an others logic.

Renniks stated he believes and knows God can not do evil.

^ That in no way "hints" or "implies" he gave any consideration or implication or suggestion of OF opposition to his belief and knowing God is NOT evil.

Disagree.

Renniks Remark is esteeming to Gods Reverence.

Glory to God,
Taken

I am comfortable with your disagreement.

Consider Renniks' words.

The answer can never be: " Because God decreed they would yield bad grapes."

You make God more evil than the devil with that view.

 

[Taken]

I am comfortable with your disagreement.

Consider Renniks' words.

I saw ONLY Renniks words you quoted in response to that quote.

I would say DECREE, was an inappropriate word to use.

God did NOT decree (ORDER), what people would do.

God is all knowing. He knows What men Will Do, (and is already Prepared, for what men "will do"....)
• Long before men have been born, heard, Chosen or Acted on their choices.

• Rather I would say; God revealed "Consequences" for Choices men would make.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[farouk]

What do you mean, Farouk?

@Rudometkin ...about numbering. Maybe David felt over-confident about the numbers of people over which He reigned...

 

[Renniks]

That you think it is even a logical possibility for God to be evil by doing something specific hints at your lack of reverence for Him.

Anything He does is Good, Holy and Righteous by definition.

That's backwards. God is good, therefore he can only do good. He defines what good is in his Word. To say that God can act like Satan and that would be good is nonsense talk.

 

[Renniks]

It's Scripture.

Jeremiah 18:1-6
The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Romans 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Romans 9:14-18
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Proverbs 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

With no context, you are not giving us the true meaning of the verses, though. For example, the Jeremiah verses are in the context of God doing to Isreal in response to what they have done.


"At any time I might announce that a nation or kingdom will be uprooted, torn down, and destroyed. 8But if that nation I warned turns from its evil,
then I will relent of the disaster I had planned to bring. 9And if at another time I announce that I will build up and establish a nation or kingdom
10and if it does evil in My sight and does not listen to My voice, then I will relent of the good I had intended for it."

Now we see that it's just not God acting arbitrarily on Isreal but acting according to what they have done. It's the opposite of determinism.

 

[Rudometkin]

That's backwards. God is good, therefore he can only do good. He defines what good is in his Word. To say that God can act like Satan and that would be good is nonsense talk.

You offer no argument on the matter that opposes my position and you appeal to nonsense towards a Strawman.

God doesn't act like Satan, He controls Satan along with everything else.

 

[Rudometkin]

@Rudometkin ...about numbering. Maybe David felt over-confident about the numbers of people over which He reigned...

Do you suggest David's sin was the state of his heart and not in taking the census?