Robots and Will Worshipers

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Rudometkin

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You seem to be saying my sin glorifies God because he can then give me more grace.
Paul says the opposite. Should we sin so that grace may increase? No... a thousand times no!

You said there is nothing merciful about causing sin, and I think my point was lost.

Paul says where sin increases in the believer, grace increases all the more. The more sin caused, the more mercy given to the believer.

That is my little point. Whether we should sin in order for grace to increase is irrelevant to my point.
 

Renniks

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You said there is nothing merciful about causing sin, and I think my point was lost.

Paul says where sin increases in the believer, grace increases all the more. The more sin caused, the more mercy given to the believer.

That is my little point. Whether we should sin in order for grace to increase is irrelevant to my point.
God doesn't cause sin.

Psalm 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

How could anyone possibly suggest that God plays the part of Satan and causes people to sin, then pretends to be angry at the sin that he himself caused?
God can of course, allow demons to afflict men for various reasons, which is not to be compared with the idea that God plays commands demons to torture people just because he can.

And it would be silly to suggest God directly controls evil spirits. God allows lots of things is response to humans sinning. To suggest that makes him the cause of our sin is ridiculous.





 

Rudometkin

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God doesn't cause sin.

1 Kings 22:23
So now the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.

Psalm 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Typical Arminian misunderstandings.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 53:10
Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

Who caused Jesus to suffer? The men who crucified him? God says He caused Jesus to suffer. How can you understand this mystery, unless you understand God caused the men to sin in causing Jesus to suffer?

Genesis 50:20
But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

How could anyone possibly suggest that God plays the part of Satan and causes people to sin, then pretends to be angry at the sin that he himself caused?

My position is not that God plays the part of Satan, nor that He pretends anything. So your question is irrelevant to me. My position is that God causes Satan to play Satan's part. That is, He causes Satan to exist in order to work out everything for His purpose. By the way, do you know what God's ultimate purpose is?

God can of course, allow demons to afflict men for various reasons, which is not to be compared with the idea that God plays commands demons to torture people just because he can.

You are quite deceptive in your writings. My position is not that God commands demons just because He can. Though you make it look like that's my position. My position is that He causes sin specifically in order to accomplish His great purpose.

1 Kings 22:22
’I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said. “’You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’

Spirit: "
I will go out and deceive."

God: "Go and deceive."

Renniks: "God, you don't do that! You don't command such things! That is a silly idea! It's absurd! I refuse to believe it!"

And it would be silly to suggest God directly controls evil spirits. God allows lots of things is response to humans sinning. To suggest that makes him the cause of our sin is ridiculous.

1 Kings 22:23
So now the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.

Renniks: "God, you didn't do that! You don't decree disaster! You didn't put the deceiving spirit in those prophets, you merely allowed the deceiving spirits to go in them. You can't, because you don't cause people to sin! I refuse to believe it!"
 

Renniks

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1 Kings 22:23
So now the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.



Typical Arminian misunderstandings.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 53:10
Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

Who caused Jesus to suffer? The men who crucified him? God says He caused Jesus to suffer. How can you understand this mystery, unless you understand God caused the men to sin in causing Jesus to suffer?

Genesis 50:20
But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.



My position is not that God plays the part of Satan, nor that He pretends anything. So your question is irrelevant to me. My position is that God causes Satan to play Satan's part. That is, He causes Satan to exist in order to work out everything for His purpose. By the way, do you know what God's ultimate purpose is?



You are quite deceptive in your writings. My position is not that God commands demons just because He can. Though you make it look like that's my position. My position is that He causes sin specifically in order to accomplish His great purpose.

1 Kings 22:22
’I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said. “’You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’

Spirit: "
I will go out and deceive."

God: "Go and deceive."

Renniks: "God, you don't do that! You don't command such things! That is a silly idea! It's absurd! I refuse to believe it!"



1 Kings 22:23
So now the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.

Renniks: "God, you didn't do that! You don't decree disaster! You didn't put the deceiving spirit in those prophets, you merely allowed the deceiving spirits to go in them. You can't, because you don't cause people to sin! I refuse to believe it!"
So that one verse which you misinterpret is all you have?

Let's look at the whole story instead of laser focus on one verse and applying it universally.



2 Chron. 18:18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the Lord; I saw the Lord sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.19 And the Lord said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will entice him. And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith?21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil against thee.

Same story, but in Kings:

1 King. 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.20 And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

God did not select a spirit and tell him “This is what I will cause you to do through predestination.

He allowed the spirit to do what he already planned to do anyway.

In your system, God would select the spirit and cause him to act. That's not what happened.

God doesn't cause sin..he certainly didn't cause Ahab to sin.

God simply allowed King Ahab to do what he already wanted...to listen to his false prophets.

Ahab was not thankful for God’s warning to him, instead he was resentful once Micaiah gave him the word of the Lord. God extended even more patience toward Ahab by having Micaiah tell the king exactly what evil spirits had been doing to plot his downfall, but Ahab rejected this further warning as well. If God’s intent was to command demons to lie and deceive Ahab, why would He bother warning Ahab about it?

Determinists quote only certain phrases in 1 Kings 22 so it sounds as though God is the direct causal agent to what happened, but if we are honest and read the whole context we get another picture.
 

farouk

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1 Kings 22:23
So now the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.



Typical Arminian misunderstandings.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 53:10
Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

Who caused Jesus to suffer? The men who crucified him? God says He caused Jesus to suffer. How can you understand this mystery, unless you understand God caused the men to sin in causing Jesus to suffer?

Genesis 50:20
But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.



My position is not that God plays the part of Satan, nor that He pretends anything. So your question is irrelevant to me. My position is that God causes Satan to play Satan's part. That is, He causes Satan to exist in order to work out everything for His purpose. By the way, do you know what God's ultimate purpose is?



You are quite deceptive in your writings. My position is not that God commands demons just because He can. Though you make it look like that's my position. My position is that He causes sin specifically in order to accomplish His great purpose.

1 Kings 22:22
’I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said. “’You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’

Spirit: "
I will go out and deceive."

God: "Go and deceive."

Renniks: "God, you don't do that! You don't command such things! That is a silly idea! It's absurd! I refuse to believe it!"



1 Kings 22:23
So now the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.

Renniks: "God, you didn't do that! You don't decree disaster! You didn't put the deceiving spirit in those prophets, you merely allowed the deceiving spirits to go in them. You can't, because you don't cause people to sin! I refuse to believe it!"
@Rudometkin Part of the wonder and mystery of Isaiah 53: "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him"...
 

Renniks

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No, I have the entire Bible. But that one verse is all I need for my point.

Did God put a lying spirit in a man?
Did you not read my last post?
Interestingly,
According to the Talmud, it was really Naboth's spirit, who seethed for vengeance, who volunteered to act as the lying spirit. And the going out was Naboth leaving God's presence because God can't have a deciever in heaven.
So it's not as simple as God speaks lies, which he cannot do.
 

theefaith

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Your words. Not mine.
I never indicated such.

we owe certain debts to God for creating us, to Christ for redeeming us in his precious blood, to the Holy Spirit for sanctifying us!

that’s a summary of religion
 

theefaith

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@Rudometkin Romans 8.28 reminds us that God has His purposes, and that they are fulfilled in Christ. There is so much that we do not understand but we can trust indeed that God continues to fulfill His purposes.

the whole Bible? 66 books? Or the real Bible including Daniel chapters 13 & 14?