The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

[Ferris Bueller]

I will only say that what we don't do does not qualify as works...works are specifically what we do.

Fasting is a work of the law, no? And a work that can not justify, not according to Paul's justification, nor according to James'. Works of righteousness are not solely defined as being literal actions. If you understand works as acts of obedience, or acts of righteousness you will understand all this better.

No; a man is justified before God by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:5-6, Romans 11:5-6).

What James is talking about is justification before man (see Romans 4:2).

I'm at work right now. We'll unpack this when I have time. Google the word 'justified' and note which definition Paul is using in Romans and which definition James is using in his letter. Also, in Genesis 22:12, in the account of when Abraham was justified by what he did, who is speaking? Who now knows that Abraham fears God?

 

[justbyfaith]

In Genesis 15:6, Abraham is justified when he simply believes God...long before he ever (almost) sacrificed his son on the altar.

There are no works attached to Abraham's faith in Genesis 15:6...

God declares him righteous simply because he believes God; in the very moment that he believes God: without works.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

In Genesis 15:6, Abraham is justified when he simply believes God...long before he ever (almost) sacrificed his son on the altar.

There are no works attached to Abraham's faith in Genesis 15:6...

God declares him righteous simply because he believes God; in the very moment that he believes God: without works.

That is true. Everybody knows that......all too well. To a fault even. But what most do not know is Abraham is then justified by what he does after he is justified by his faith. James' whole argument is based on this additional justification-justification by works.

If you Googled the word 'justified' you know that it has more than one meaning. Abraham was justified according to one meaning of the word in Genesis 15:6. Then he was justified according to another meaning of the word in Genesis 22:12. James says in James 2:24, using Abraham as an example, that a man is not justified by faith 'alone', but is (also) justified by what he does. He says if a person is not also justified by what he does then he has dead faith (faith that does nothing and is 'alone'). He says that faith-dead faith-can not save a person. But the church says that is not true, because that would be a works gospel, and that all you have to have to be saved is dead faith (faith that does not obey). So the church has discarded this important teaching, or changed it's meaning, to give false comfort to dead faith 'Christians' that they really are saved and ready to meet Christ despite them not having any works of faith that only those with genuine faith in God have.

 

[marks]

But the church says that is not true, because that would be a works gospel, and that all you have to have to be saved is dead faith (faith that does not obey). So the church has discarded this important teaching, or changed it's meaning,

That's a rather broad brush, don't you think?

But I will maintain we are not justified by God in the works we do resultant from a living faith. We are justified before man by the works they can see, but God already knows whether we are true or not, whether we know Him or not.

We are saved by faith, being justified by God, but people can't "see" faith. They can only see if we've changed.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

But the church says that is not true, because that would be a works gospel, and that all you have to have to be saved is dead faith (faith that does not obey).

Certainly it is a faith that obeys that is salvational. But the obedience isn't what saves. It is the obedient faith that saves.

It is not the works that save a man; it is the attitude that produces the works that is an integral part of the salvation that we receive sola fide.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Certainly it is a faith that obeys that is salvational. But the obedience isn't what saves. It is the obedient faith that saves.

It is not the works that save a man; it is the attitude that produces the works that is an integral part of the salvation that we receive sola fide.

That's what I've been saying.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

That's a rather broad brush, don't you think?

No, I don't think so.

But I will maintain we are not justified by God in the works we do resultant from a living faith.

Yes we are justified by our works by God. Just not according to how Paul uses the word. Works justify you as being righteous in Christ. Faith is how you got that righteousness. We are justified by both faith and works. The faith that saves is the faith that makes you righteous apart from works and can be seen in how you live. If you can't see your faith in how you live you don't have the faith that makes a person righteous apart from works. That's why a man must be justified by both faith and works. Real faith works.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Certainly it is a faith that obeys that is salvational. It is the obedient faith that saves.

Which is why a man is justified by both faith and works. But the church will fight you tooth and nail on this because to them that's a works gospel.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

We are saved by faith, being justified by God, but people can't "see" faith. They can only see if we've changed.

Yes, but God also has chosen to judge us according to what we have done, not by our confession of faith 'alone'. He doesn't have to because he knows all and can peer into the heart of a man but he has chosen to pass judgement according to the evidence of our lives anyway.

 

[Taken]

Ferris Bueller
justbyfaith
marks

Justification- works- God- man
All have specific applications.
It hinges on WHO benefits and WHO is glorified and WHO justifies.

For Examples:
• A man who is HEARING- the Word of God.
God Justifies that man to receive Measures of Gods Gift of Faith.
• A man who is believing the Word of God.
God justifies giving that man increased Measures of Gods Gift of Faith.
• A man Doubting, Deny The Word of God, STOPS being Justified (by God), to receive Gods Increase of Faith.
• A man who continues Hearing, Believing, resumes God Increase of Gods Gift of Faith.
• A man who Freely chooses to Hear, and has received Measures of Gods Gift of Faith, and thereafter the man Freely Chooses to Reject, and Stop hearing Gods Word...STOPS being justified by God, and STOPS receiving Gods Gift of Faith...AND the man is called having Fallen FROM Faith.
^^^ That man Never continued To arrive at the Point of Being Justified (by God), to Receive Gods Gift OF Salvation.
^ That man...fell from Faith.
^ Men do not...FALL from Salvation.
^ Men LOSE Salvation. -
• The LOSS of Salvation, is a LOSS unto a man, WHO WAS Never Justified BY God TO Receive Gods Gift of Salvation...that was Already Bought and Paid (By Jesus) Wirh Gods "Justification For" Every man TO Receive.
• A man WHO Freely Chooses to NOT Receive His Gift of Salvation, Freely Chooses to Lose the Gift, That WAS provided For that man To agree to Receive.
• A man WHO Chooses to Receive Gods Gift of Salvation, Does so BY: Proclaiming, by his "Hearts thoughts," To the Lord, He Believes: IN God and Gods Word (named Jesus), and that he believes Jesus IS Gods Christ (anointed and Power and Wisdom), Messiah.
^ That man, (having given A TRUE "heartful confession), (rather than a carnally mindful confession)...IS Justified (by God), to RIGHT THEN, Receive Gods Gift of Salvation.
^ That is a permanent Gift, (that restores and Saves a man soul unto God), justified by God Once and Forever.
(A man's repentance preseeds The Gift of Salvation)
• The Justification of God, To Forgive All of a man's Sins AGAINST God (having corrupted his soul, having HAD Disbelief ...Are Forgiven, ONCE and Forever).
• That man is ADDITIONALLY- Justified BY God, to Receive- a circumcised heart, a new Heart, Gods Seed, A RE-birth of his Natural spirit, To a Spiritual spirit...
^ WHICH means- a man's hearts THOUGHTS is a man's TRUE TRUTH (aside of what his Carnal Mind is thinking),
•The Receiving of Gods Seed, rebirths the man's spirit, the man is now, justified to Receive Gods Spiritual Truth, Via Gods Spirit of Truth.
• Having received Gods Gift of Gods Spiritual Truth, Justifies a man to Receive Gods "Spiritual Understanding" of His Spiritual Truth.
• ^ THAT is Gods Offering for a man TO superseded the man's Natural Minds thoughts, (Carnal minds logical guesswork of Scriptural interpretation....TO Gods Supernatural Spiritual Understanding of His Word.

SEE what Transpires (or Not)...Before Even mentioning WORKS?

A man who has Become "Converted"...is FULLY "FaithFULL".... meaning- Gods Spirit has entered within the man.
• The man Has freely chosen FOR GODS internal Power - TO Forever KEEP that man Faith-FULL to The Lord God Almighty Only and...Forever. (Despite a corrupt world, corrupt people and Satan's tricks ...all trying to persuade a man to believe otherwise, Against God. Can't happen. Gods Power is supreme.

• Such a Converted man....IS NOW, justified By God, and Prepared By God....TO DO WORKS.....THAT....GLORIFY God.

A man going to his Job- is rewarded with a paycheck.
A man helping himself or an other is rewarded with satisfaction and thank yous, or tokens, gifts, trades.
A man Following Scriptural Laws, Rules or Secular/Civil Laws or rules...are Benefited with Gods BLESSINGS, and man's Accolades.
(Avoiding negative (curse/penal) consequences.

••A man - speaking, teaching, preaching, the Word of God Clearly "TO Gods CREDIT" (the Speaking, etc. Clearly Because OF God making it possible).
••A man - helping an other Clearly "TO Gods CREDIT" (the help forward to an other, Clearly Because God made it possible.
•• IS a man accomplishing Works THAT Glorify God.

• In Brief-
Justified BY God...
TO Receive a BLESSING from God, For Doing as He has Taught is most beneficial For You (via Commands, Laws, statutes, precepts (behaviors))....IS One thing.

•
Justified BY God...
TO Receive A REWARD from God, FOR Glorifying God before other men....
IS a completely other thing.

I think that at times becomes cross-wired, because that both -Blessings and Rewards- are prefaced with Works of a man.

(and TO note...God also justifies " some blessings Given men For "not having done works"...)

It is paramount to Divide the Word of Truth, to determine What applies to a specific individual...and not an other.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Ferris Bueller
justbyfaith
marks

Justification- works- God- man
All have specific applications.
It hinges on WHO benefits and WHO is glorified and WHO justifies.

For Examples:
• A man who is HEARING- the Word of God.
God Justifies that man to receive Measures of Gods Gift of Faith.
• A man who is believing the Word of God.
God justifies giving that man increased Measures of Gods Gift of Faith.
• A man Doubting, Deny The Word of God, STOPS being Justified (by God), to receive Gods Increase of Faith.
• A man who continues Hearing, Believing, resumes God Increase of Gods Gift of Faith.
• A man who Freely chooses to Hear, and has received Measures of Gods Gift of Faith, and thereafter the man Freely Chooses to Reject, and Stop hearing Gods Word...STOPS being justified by God, and STOPS receiving Gods Gift of Faith...AND the man is called having Fallen FROM Faith.
^^^ That man Never continued To arrive at the Point of Being Justified (by God), to Receive Gods Gift OF Salvation.
^ That man...fell from Faith.
^ Men do not...FALL from Salvation.
^ Men LOSE Salvation. -
• The LOSS of Salvation, is a LOSS unto a man, WHO WAS Never Justified BY God TO Receive Gods Gift of Salvation...that was Already Bought and Paid (By Jesus) Wirh Gods "Justification For" Every man TO Receive.
• A man WHO Freely Chooses to NOT Receive His Gift of Salvation, Freely Chooses to Lose the Gift, That WAS provided For that man To agree to Receive.
• A man WHO Chooses to Receive Gods Gift of Salvation, Does so BY: Proclaiming, by his "Hearts thoughts," To the Lord, He Believes: IN God and Gods Word (named Jesus), and that he believes Jesus IS Gods Christ (anointed and Power and Wisdom), Messiah.
^ That man, (having given A TRUE "heartful confession), (rather than a carnally mindful confession)...IS Justified (by God), to RIGHT THEN, Receive Gods Gift of Salvation.
^ That is a permanent Gift, (that restores and Saves a man soul unto God), justified by God Once and Forever.
(A man's repentance preseeds The Gift of Salvation)
• The Justification of God, To Forgive All of a man's Sins AGAINST God (having corrupted his soul, having HAD Disbelief ...Are Forgiven, ONCE and Forever).
• That man is ADDITIONALLY- Justified BY God, to Receive- a circumcised heart, a new Heart, Gods Seed, A RE-birth of his Natural spirit, To a Spiritual spirit...
^ WHICH means- a man's hearts THOUGHTS is a man's TRUE TRUTH (aside of what his Carnal Mind is thinking),
•The Receiving of Gods Seed, rebirths the man's spirit, the man is now, justified to Receive Gods Spiritual Truth, Via Gods Spirit of Truth.
• Having received Gods Gift of Gods Spiritual Truth, Justifies a man to Receive Gods "Spiritual Understanding" of His Spiritual Truth.
• ^ THAT is Gods Offering for a man TO superseded the man's Natural Minds thoughts, (Carnal minds logical guesswork of Scriptural interpretation....TO Gods Supernatural Spiritual Understanding of His Word.

SEE what Transpires (or Not)...Before Even mentioning WORKS?

A man who has Become "Converted"...is FULLY "FaithFULL".... meaning- Gods Spirit has entered within the man.
• The man Has freely chosen FOR GODS internal Power - TO Forever KEEP that man Faith-FULL to The Lord God Almighty Only and...Forever. (Despite a corrupt world, corrupt people and Satan's tricks ...all trying to persuade a man to believe otherwise, Against God. Can't happen. Gods Power is supreme.

• Such a Converted man....IS NOW, justified By God, and Prepared By God....TO DO WORKS.....THAT....GLORIFY God.

A man going to his Job- is rewarded with a paycheck.
A man helping himself or an other is rewarded with satisfaction and thank yous, or tokens, gifts, trades.
A man Following Scriptural Laws, Rules or Secular/Civil Laws or rules...are Benefited with Gods BLESSINGS, and man's Accolades.
(Avoiding negative (curse/penal) consequences.

••A man - speaking, teaching, preaching, the Word of God Clearly "TO Gods CREDIT" (the Speaking, etc. Clearly Because OF God making it possible).
••A man - helping an other Clearly "TO Gods CREDIT" (the help forward to an other, Clearly Because God made it possible.
•• IS a man accomplishing Works THAT Glorify God.

• In Brief-
Justified BY God...
TO Receive a BLESSING from God, For Doing as He has Taught is most beneficial For You (via Commands, Laws, statutes, precepts (behaviors))....IS One thing.

•
Justified BY God...
TO Receive A REWARD from God, FOR Glorifying God before other men....
IS a completely other thing.

I think that at times becomes cross-wired, because that both -Blessings and Rewards- are prefaced with Works of a man.

(and TO note...God also justifies " some blessings Given men For "not having done works"...)

It is paramount to Divide the Word of Truth, to determine What applies to a specific individual...and not an other.

Glory to God,
Taken

Seems kind of complicated. Isn't the gospel simpler than this?

 

[marks]

Seems kind of complicated. Isn't the gospel simpler than this?

All who call upon the Name of the LORD shall be saved.

God knows those who are His.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

That's what I've been saying.

So, say it the way I've been saying it.

Which is why a man is justified by both faith and works. But the church will fight you tooth and nail on this because to them that's a works gospel.

No, a man is justified before God by faith alone, apart from works. Before man, he is justified by works (Romans 4:2).

The church will fight you tooth and nail on this because it is a matter of sound doctrine. Salvation is "not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:9).

And, to say that we are saved by works also, is to compromise sound doctrine on the fact that we are regenerated and renewed by the mercy of God and "not by works of righteousness which we have done." (Titus 3:5 (kjv)).

Regeneration and renewal certainly means that we will be inclined towards good works.

But if you define salvation as regeneration and renewing in the Holy Ghost, doing some good work is not going to accomplish that. Only faith in Jesus will do that.

Now, when we stand before the Lord on the day of judgment, there is an extent to which those who do not have a thief-on-the-cross type of conversion will be judged according to their works. If they do not have any works to show for their faith, they will still be saved; yet so as by fire. So the judgment for those who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb will be concerning reward and not as concerning whether or not the person will enter the kingdom of heaven.

A question:

In John 5:29, we are told that those who have done evil will be raised unto condemnation; and that those who have done good will be raised unto life.

Have we not all done evil (Romans 3:10-18, Romans 3:23)? And is it not true that no one does good (Romans 3:12)?

But Romans 3:10-18 is as concerning those who are under the law (Romans 3:19); and we as believers in Christ are not under the law (see Romans 6:14).

We have been forgiven of those evil deeds that would cause us to be raised unto condemnation; otherwise, all will be raised unto condemnation.

It can be said that even the thief on the cross did good in that he confessed Christ while in a very strong situation; and many people may in fact be saved on their deathbeds because of this testimony. So, those who are saved on their deathbeds may have him to thank for their opportunity to receive Christ without the necessity of doing good works afterwards in order to save themselves.

 

[mailmandan]

Remember, eternal life is really conditional life.

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

 

[Taken]

Seems kind of complicated. Isn't the gospel simpler than this?

Depends on ones STANDING.
The Scripture is all True, but All Scripture does not Apply the same to All people.

(Some call it "cherry picking", as a derrorgatory intent, but individuals know their own decisions, thus what does and does not Apply to them.)

There is an ORDER and WAY God provides For all men to know precisely ... the Consequences of their choices...Good or Bad.

• Men -OT or WHO continue to follow OT laws, (primarily the twelve tribes), all calling themselves Jews today.
The primarily, believe in God, but not that Jesus is their Christ Messiah.

• Men Who in Jesus day (Jew and Gentile) who believed, were coming into Belief, received Salvation and Born Again spirit.

• Men who Carnal minded claim they believe, (may even be Water Baptized), but in their heart, never believed. Frauds. God knows, is not fooled.

• Men who vacillate, believe one day, not the next. Make no commitment to God of Belief.

• Men who Reject Belief in God and Christ Jesus.

• Men Who make no commitment but attend Church Services to appease a family member, spouse, parent, or boost business contacts.

• Men who believe they receive the Holy Spirit, by another asking FOR them, and believe they will receive Salvation at Physical Death IF they have done enough works.

• Men who Hear, read, learn the Word of God, Repent, are Forgiven, receive Salvation and a Born Again spirit. <--- They are prepared;
TO Do works that Glorify God.
TO Receive Rewards "For" works done that ....Glorify God.
TO BE Redeemed by the Lord God.
TO BE Resurrected by the Lord God.

These Men ^ have all freely chosen (differently) what is their own personal individual StANDING.
(With or Without).

And Scripture is the Knowledge that Reveals Which man is Justified to Receive "for" What and When.

ON an open primarily Christian forum...
The assumption may be ... All are Saved and Born Again...but in Fact only the individual and God Knows their Heart.
We simply "know them" by little glimpses of what they Say...not what they Do.

It is not complicated...

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

Hard for human wisdom to understand this, professing to be wise, like is said, we became fools

 

[mailmandan]

Which is why a man is justified by both faith and works. But the church will fight you tooth and nail on this because to them that's a works gospel.

Man is justified (accounted as righteous) by faith (Romans 4:2-6; 5:1) and man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:21-24) It becomes a works gospel when one teaches that man is justified (accounted as righteous) by works.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

All who call upon the Name of the LORD shall be saved.

God knows those who are His.

Much love!

How about this for a simple gospel.......

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Man is justified (accounted as righteous) by faith (Romans 4:2-6; 5:1) and man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:21-24) It becomes a works gospel when one teaches that man is justified (accounted as righteous) by works.

I wonder why so many people don't get this. I think it's because our pastors don't even know that James is not teaching a works gospel.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

Most in the church aren't even through the door for this to even matter. The way they live proves that! In the Bible I see the emphasis on making sure you've really entered in through Christ in the first place. That's the important thing. Once saved always saved doesn't even apply until you've settled that first. And then after that once saved always saved doesn't matter anymore. The church is majoring in a minor as they say.