The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

[Ferris Bueller]

I do know and understand that in Titus 3:14, works and fruit are mentioned as being almost synonymous.

But I still think that there is a difference between the two.

For one thing, fruit is something that hangs off of you;

While works are something that you put your hands to.

We definitely do good works because of the fruit of the Spirit in our lives.

For the fruit of the Spirit is love (Galatians 5:22-23); and love is said to be a practical thing in 1 John 3:17-18.

Actual deeds are the expression of the fruit of the Spirit. Patient behavior comes from being patient. Kind behavior comes from being kind. Loving behavior comes from having love. Restraint comes from being self-controlled. And so on. Believers should focus on the fruit of the Spirit and not so much on the deeds themselves produced by that fruit. For example, the rage-aholic can concentrate all day long on trying to not fly off in a rage, or he can concentrate on nurturing the spiritual fruit of peace in his soul to stop flying off the handle. He will be much more successful if he does the latter. And that success will testify to the fact that he really does possess the grace of God in salvation and is ready to meet Jesus when he comes back.

 

[justbyfaith]

Actual deeds are the expression of the fruit of the Spirit. Patient behavior comes from being patient. Kind behavior comes from being kind. Loving behavior comes from having love. Restraint comes from being self-controlled. And so on. Believers should focus on the fruit of the Spirit and not so much on the deeds themselves produced by that fruit. For example, the rage-aholic can concentrate all day long on trying to not fly off in a rage, or he can concentrate on nurturing the spiritual fruit of the Spirit of peace in his soul to stop flying off the handle. He will be much more successful if he does the latter. And that success will testify to the fact that he really does possess the grace of God in salvation and is ready to meet Jesus when he comes back.

However, I would not call any of the behaviours that you mentioned "works".

 

[Ferris Bueller]

People act the wrong way because they don't have the love of the Lord in them. If they genuinely place their faith in Jesus that will be fixed.

So, don't put a works trip on them. Preach Jesus to them.

Did you hear a word I said about 'making your calling and election sure'? You do that by DOING SOMETHING.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

However, I would not call any of the behaviours that you mentioned "works".

Being kind to someone is not a work of righteousness? Being patient with someone is not a work of righteousness?

 

[justbyfaith]

Did you hear a word I said about 'making your calling and election sure'? You do that by DOING SOMETHING.

What exactly do you do, to make your calling and election sure?

 

[justbyfaith]

Being kind to someone is not a work of righteousness? Being patient with someone is not a work of righteousness?

Nope. It is the behaviour that results out of the fruit of the Spirit in a man's life.

 

[justbyfaith]

Going to get some rest.

Will resume the conversation in the morning.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You don't think there will be any unbelievers who crawl in off the web who will come in and see our posts? I try to make sure that I stay accurate and also keep the facts straight in any given situation for the sake of those who don't know and also in order that those who do know may not be led astray by false information.

You are leading them astray because you say that faith that is 'alone' is saving faith. Faith 'apart from works' is what justifies, but if that faith remains 'alone' having no works to validate it as being genuine, they have a faith that will not save them when Jesus comes back. The church is not telling people this for fear that is somehow a works gospel. They do not know what they are talking about. They are leading countless people astray and polluting the gospel, and polluting our churches with fake believers. I know this won't change and will only get worse because we are in the great falling away of the last days. I'm just posting to snag the few who will hear what the Spirit is saying and be saved.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Nope. It is the behaviour that results out of the fruit of the Spirit in a man's life.

Trust me, not strangling your neighbor when he plays his music loud into the night is in fact a righteous work.

Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to its neighbor.

You will understand what godly love is better by what it doesn't do more than you will by what it does. That's not to negate the fact that godly love is very active. It's to show you and countless other Christians that love goes way beyond occasionally helping out at your local helps ministry and is instead a day to day, moment to moment lifestyle of godly character. I say this because the truth is most Christians aren't very good people. But they take false comfort that they are because they participate in helps ministries and things like that.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Man looks on the outward appearance but God looks on the heart (1 Samuel 16:7).

We are justified before the Lord through our faith apart from works and justified before man by our works.

God sees a man's faith invisibly even though he may not have any works to show for his faith.

God justified Abraham in Genesis 15:6 when he had not yet done any good works to show for his faith...it was at the moment that Abraham believed God that he was justified.

Everybody in the church knows this........to a fault! Except the part about being justified by what you do (James 2:24). They do not know that part. They can only understand that part as a works gospel (you trying to save yourself through the merit of your works). They don't know that the saved man is justified by BOTH faith and works just as James say. They don't know that being justified by your works does not mean the same thing as being justified by your faith. And so they reject James' teaching out of hand. To their own peril! If you are not also justified by your works you are not ready to meet Jesus when he comes back. That is not a works gospel! Being justified by your works is not the same as being justified by your faith apart from works.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

But if one does not know that they are forgiven, because they have not done enough good works yet in order to obtain that forgiveness (in your scenario)

If you think that's what I've been saying you haven't heard a word I've said. But you are not alone. MOST Christians can not hear the truth about this subject. They think faith that is 'alone' (James 2:24) is equivalent to faith 'apart from works' (Romans 4:5-6) and so they take false comfort in their dead faith thinking they are saved and ready to meet Jesus when he returns.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

What exactly do you do, to make your calling and election sure?

Peter tells us. And you're going to be surprised that he doesn't list specific works but rather the 'doing' of specific qualities.

2 Peter 1:5-11
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10Therefore, my brothers and sisters, a make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

When's the last time you heard a pastor teach that sermon? DO these things so you won't stumble and so you will receive a rich welcome into the kingdom. Instead what we hear pastors teach is "just have faith 'alone' to be saved and don't worry about works or that would be a works gospel." Notice the words "make every effort" in verses 5 and 10. Yikes! He's teaching a works gospel! LOL!

 

[charity]

2 Peter 1:5-11
When's the last time you heard a pastor teach that sermon? DO these things so you won't stumble and so you will receive a rich welcome into the kingdom. Instead what we hear pastors teach is "just have faith 'alone' to be saved and don't worry about works or that would be a works gospel." Notice the words "make every effort" in verses 5 and 10. Yikes! He's teaching a works gospel! LOL!

'According as His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,
.. through the knowledge of Him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
.... Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises:
...... that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,
........ having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
.. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
.... And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound,
.. they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful
.... in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
...... But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off,
........ and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure:
.. for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
.... For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly
...... into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things,
though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.'
(2 Peter 1:3-12)

Hello @Ferris Bueller,

What can be lost is 'reward' and not 'salvation'. Those to whom Peter wrote were, 'established in the present truth', they knew the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord, and had thereby 'escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust,' and, 'were partakers of the new nature. Yet they could become 'barren' and 'unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ'.

The gift of life would not be taken from them. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. However though they would 'live' they would not 'reign' with Christ.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Ferris Bueller]

'According as His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,
.. through the knowledge of Him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
.... Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises:
...... that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,
........ having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
.. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
.... And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound,
.. they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful
.... in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
...... But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off,
........ and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure:
.. for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
.... For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly
...... into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things,
though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.'
(2 Peter 1:3-12)

Hello @Ferris Bueller,

What can be lost is 'reward' and not 'salvation'. Those to whom Peter wrote were, 'established in the present truth', they knew the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord, and had thereby 'escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust,' and, 'were partakers of the new nature. Yet they could become 'barren' and 'unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ'.

The gift of life would not be taken from them. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. However though they would 'live' they would not 'reign' with Christ.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I wasn't making a 'once saved always saved' argument. You have to be saved in the first place for the once saved always saved argument to mean anything. Works are how you know if you are saved or not. We are told to confirm our calling and election. And it is by purposely seeking to do works of righteousness that we confirm our calling and election. Let's get the church over that hurdle first, then we can entertain ourselves with the not so important teaching of whether or not one can lose their salvation.

 

[Taken]

Being kind to someone is not a work of righteousness? Being patient with someone is not a work of righteousness?

Works are specific to Glorifying God before other men.

Being nice, for Example, can be accomplished by anyone, even an Atheist.
So a person is nice, kind, to an other...
• WHO gets the glory in that?
The person who is Thanked for being Nice.

• Works that Glorify GOD, are specific ...
THEY ARE Works THAT Actually GIVE GOD credit-accolade-

For example-
Giving Cheerfully Willingly as a Charity-
With notation- you ARE able to Give---
Because you SAY, God has Blessed you with more than you 'NEED'.

Otherwise, "a thank YOU", "a compliment", etc. ... is glory To "YOU."

Have you ever been in the grocery store during a holiday...Seen People with their Turkeys, Hams, desserts, drinks, overflowing their carts? ...and Notice a Raggy clothed person looking over the prices on a pack of lunch meat ham? Or little kids at the checkout
Eyeing candy while their mom is fumbling for her food stamp card and trying to distract the kids from the candy (right at their eye-level)?
Or inquire with staff at elderly rest homes or prisons, or shut-in neighbors, or check with Schools, kids without mittens, sweater, a bag of treats to share, etc. WHO never has visitors, a birthday card, a handful of wild flowers, a little occasional gift?

These are the Kinds of things Scripture means, to Reach out, do something special, and TELL THEM God Lead you to reach out TO Them, and Bless them...<---

Those Are Works that Glorify God.
A small effort a person does, makes a Grand impression on a person who had zero expectation of such gesture....and Even Grander impression...that God lead you to them at That moment.<---
Mentioning God...removes any idea, it was about them being Lucky.

There are numerous things a person out and about in the public, in their neighborhood, can do to Glorify God.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Actual deeds are the expression of the fruit of the Spirit. Patient behavior comes from being patient. Kind behavior comes from being kind. Loving behavior comes from having love.

In this day and era, fast, quick is expected and slow is a frustration.

So I had some shopping to do at Walmart- my least Favorite thing to do at my least favorite place! But anyway, I arranged to get my dogs treats...at at time with the least traffic flow. Quick in and out.
So approaching my truck I notice an elderly lady with her purchases walking, looking unsure, uneasy. I ask if she could not remember where she parked. She said yes. So I ask her to describe her vehicle....White ...kind of small! LOL. No model or make. For nearly an hour I pushed her cart around looking for her vehicle. Finally found it, packed her purchases in her car, stored her cart...she thanked me...and immediately, I said, God put me there at That moment, Praise God.
So I got to my truck, left and sat in Traffic... LOL.
Point being...the big picture of helping her, praising God and although I had timed my shopping to avoid traffic...seeing that woman go from worry to relief was rewarding, and sitting in traffic I was moreso thinking about the interesting tid-bits of information she was sharing as we were walking all over that giant parking lot.

Just sharing.
Glory to God,
Taken

 

[charity]

I wasn't making a 'once saved always saved' argument. You have to be saved in the first place for the once saved always saved argument to mean anything. Works are how you know if you are saved or not. We are told to confirm our calling and election. And it is by purposely seeking to do works of righteousness that we confirm our calling and election. Let's get the church over that hurdle first, then we can entertain ourselves with the not so important teaching of whether or not one can lose their salvation.

Thread Subject:- The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

Hello @Ferris Bueller,

I would not call the possibility of the loss of salvation lacking in importance.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Thread Subject:- The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

Hello @Ferris Bueller,

I would not call the possibility of the loss of salvation lacking in importance.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Compared to being saved itself, yes it is lacking in importance. The subject can be a source of encouragement, but as we can see the church has turned it into an excuse to have dead faith, to the detriment of that which actually does matter.

 

[justbyfaith]

You will understand what godly love is better by what it doesn't do more than you will by what it does.

I will only say that what we don't do does not qualify as works...works are specifically what we do.

They don't know that the saved man is justified by BOTH faith and works just as James say.

No; a man is justified before God by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:5-6, Romans 11:5-6).

What James is talking about is justification before man (see Romans 4:2).

 

[DaChaser]

What do you say about the person who calls on the name of the Lord upon their death bed and then passes into the next life one minute later?

See Romans 10:13.

I believe that this verse would tell us that the person who calls on the name of the Lord, and yet has no works to show for his faith, shall be saved.

Would be in same situation as the thief upon the Cross!