How should we apply the edict of Matthew 22:21 in the context that God tells us in Hebrews 10:25 to not forget (neglect) the assembling of ourselves together, whereas ‘Caesar’ currently forbids us from doing so?
God or 'Caesar'
- Thread starter Mike Waters
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historyb
Well-Known Member
Obey God rather than men.My church met when the Government forbid it because the Eucharist is more important than anything. With those churches with no Eucharist, I can understand their is nothing at church except a club so missing it is no big deal
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Hi Mike,
This is a good question!
Personally, I feel this is a matter for the individual to decide according to the light that is in them. Jesus was of course talking about taxes, but I'm sure there is broader application.
Perhaps a POV would be to say, give to Ceaser until it takes away what is to be given to God. For me, I don't want to risk my wife, so I'm avoiding assemblies for whatever purpose. The latest thinking I've been able to discern is covid passes more by being in groups, and by "super spreaders", or those with high viral shedding.
I miss church! I miss all the serving! All of it! My church was a real love fest. Not like many churches. But I'm trusting in God.
My wife and I constantly are talking about God, reading the Word together, praying together, singing, we are church. But I'm greedy!
Oh, and the one's I know who have caught covid, for the most part, are going the church. 'They' also say that eating in restaurants statistically doubles your chances of getting it.
So, I think we need to look at all these things, and be tender to the leading of the Lord.
Much love!
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Hi Mike! Good to see you on here. And, good question.
"... and so much the more, as ye see the day drawing nigh."
I can see underground church's one day. As far as giving unto Caesar, my thoughts go to the "image" and the "tribute" aspect of it all. I once thought it was taxes, but I do not believe that is it.
I hope all is well with you brother,
In Him,
Nancy
Mosheli
Active Member
I don't think the situation is the same as the Caesar tax question.
The bible also says to respect/obey the "authorities".
The assembling is not a command/law? And it is not like its going to be forever. You are not really disobeying God by complying to the forbidding of assembly. God understands when we have major limitations/obstacles.
"Church"/assembly is any two or more in his name.
You can meet on zoom net/web, on phone.
Jehovah's Witnesses here holding their meetings on Zoom. (I'm not a JW but have had contact with some.) Or are you allowed to meet if you wear masks? Is the forbidding actual legal/law? If it is not law then you are allowed to disregard the "forbidding" advice.
Assembling is not the only command/responsibility the bible gives. The JW's say we have to keep others safe.
So it is not a forced choice of one or the other since can do both. If you have to choose between one or the other then obviously God is first.
Anyway pray and ask God. Consider what would Jesus say/do?
The bible also says to respect/obey the "authorities".
The assembling is not a command/law? And it is not like its going to be forever. You are not really disobeying God by complying to the forbidding of assembly. God understands when we have major limitations/obstacles.
"Church"/assembly is any two or more in his name.
You can meet on zoom net/web, on phone.
Jehovah's Witnesses here holding their meetings on Zoom. (I'm not a JW but have had contact with some.) Or are you allowed to meet if you wear masks? Is the forbidding actual legal/law? If it is not law then you are allowed to disregard the "forbidding" advice.
Assembling is not the only command/responsibility the bible gives. The JW's say we have to keep others safe.
So it is not a forced choice of one or the other since can do both. If you have to choose between one or the other then obviously God is first.
Anyway pray and ask God. Consider what would Jesus say/do?
The letter can kill. The commandments of God were not meant to kill us. We need to realize there are exceptions to rules. Obey the Law of Love which is about improving life -- not risking disease and death for ourselves and others.
The government has many rules meant to benefit us, to guard us from harm. Can we see that such laws are in fact Christian in spirit?
Hi Marks
I was asking the question as a generality, but my personal situation is similar to yours in that my wife's immunity levels to covid 19 are so low due to her paliative care Chemo treatment that both of us have to exercise extreme isolation.
Under grace as distinct from under law I trust that the Lord understands and leads.
How many people would you be willing to see get sick or die so you can get what you want?
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
The text regarding the neglect of fellowship is counsel and warning... Not a command for worship. Not fellowshipping for a period of time does not mean a change in loyalty. And fellowshipping does not necessarily mean going to a building. You can still meet with your unbelieving neighbor in order to share food, the gospel, and friendship. A form of fellowship that I would suggest meets the criteria.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Of course you would think that way. Any church based on law, dogma and having a penal code attached would consider anything else heresy.
The fundamental principle in the New Testament is that Christians should render to Caesar what is lawfully Caesar's (primarily taxes). But when Caesar interferes with the things which God requires, then Christians must disobey Caesar, and face the penalties.
There is absolutely no question that the COVID scamdemic has been used by Leftist (Democrat) governors and mayors in the USA to block the free exercise of religion and worship. And not just that of Christians. Cuomo is persecuting Orthodox Jews in New York, while Newsom is persecuting Christians in California. John MacArthur's church has rightly decided to defy Newsom, and also bring the matter before the courts. The problem now is that the Supreme Court itself has compromised the Constitution (which hopefully will be corrected after Barrett is appointed).
Since the scamdemic is indeed bogus in every respect (even though the virus exists just like another flu virus), Christians should have simply ignored all the interference by mayors and governors. Churches should also have refused any tax advantages offered by governments from the get go, and simply paid all taxes without questions while refusing tax breaks. Then governments would have no tool to blackmail churches.
Have people heard that John Hagee has coronavirus?
Megachurch Pastor Contracts COVID-19 After Suing to Force School Reopenings
Prestonwood Baptist pastor opts not to follow CDC guidelines in wake of White House COVID exposure
Megachurch Pastor Contracts COVID-19 After Suing to Force School Reopenings
At San Antonio’s Cornerstone Church on Sunday morning, hundreds of maskless congregants sang and prayed, swaying together in the pews, babies and grandparents in close proximity.
It might have been easy to forget there was a deadly pandemic blazing through the country.
That is, until about 25 minutes into the sermon, when pastor Matt Hagee, on a stage bathed in blue light, announced that his father, the 80-year-old senior pastor and the church’s founder, John Hagee, had been diagnosed two days earlier with COVID-19. Hagee said during the Oct. 4 livestreamed service that his father “has been diligent throughout this entire COVID pandemic to monitor his health.”
“It was one, discovered very early, and two, his medical team has him under watchful care, and three, he's feeling well enough to be frustrated by anyone in a white coat with a stethoscope,” said Hagee. “He covets your prayers and asks for you to pray for him daily.”
We'll see about Pastor Jack Graham who was at that superspreader event in Washington.It might have been easy to forget there was a deadly pandemic blazing through the country.
That is, until about 25 minutes into the sermon, when pastor Matt Hagee, on a stage bathed in blue light, announced that his father, the 80-year-old senior pastor and the church’s founder, John Hagee, had been diagnosed two days earlier with COVID-19. Hagee said during the Oct. 4 livestreamed service that his father “has been diligent throughout this entire COVID pandemic to monitor his health.”
“It was one, discovered very early, and two, his medical team has him under watchful care, and three, he's feeling well enough to be frustrated by anyone in a white coat with a stethoscope,” said Hagee. “He covets your prayers and asks for you to pray for him daily.”
Prestonwood Baptist pastor opts not to follow CDC guidelines in wake of White House COVID exposure
Dallas-area megachurch Pastor Jack Graham has declined to follow medical guidelines despite being in close contact with people who have since tested positive for the coronavirus after a Sept. 26 Rose Garden ceremony, telling his congregation, “I am ridiculously healthy.”
The 70-year-old leader of Prestonwood Baptist Church in Plano attended the ceremony at the White House where President Donald Trump formally announced his nomination of conservative Amy Coney Barrett for the Supreme Court. Since the event, at least 10 attendees have tested positive for the coronavirus, which causes COVID-19, including former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, who was photographed sitting directly behind Graham. Pastor Greg Laurie of Harvest Christian Fellowship in Riverside, Calif., was sitting next to Graham and also later tested positive.
Graham, Laurie and Christie were among the vast majority of people not wearing a mask at the event.
Robert Morris, the senior pastor at Gateway Church in Southlake, was photographed at the Rose Garden ceremony without a mask. He was seated directly behind Notre Dame President John Jenkins, who was also unmasked and later tested positive for the virus.
A spokesperson for the church declined to comment on if Morris had been tested for the virus and was quarantining following his exposure.
A maskless Graham led his church’s service on Sunday and was photographed having a conversation with several worshippers afterward by a member of his congregation. Graham was not wearing a mask in the photo that was shared with The Dallas Morning News.
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends anyone exposed to someone who tests positive for the virus quarantine for at least 14 days following the exposure and maintain six feet of social distance from others.
“I am ridiculously healthy, let’s just put it that way,” Graham said during the service. “I’m not sick, I’m fine. … I don’t have COVID, let’s just put it that way, and I’m grateful for that.”
The CDC says symptoms of COVID-19 may appear two to 14 days after an exposure to someone infected with the virus, hence the quarantine recommendation. The Rose Garden event is still well-within that 14 day period.
A quarantine is used to keep someone who might have been infected with COVID-19 away from others to help “prevent spread of disease that can occur before a person knows they are sick or if they are infected with the virus without feeling symptoms,” according to the CDC.
The 70-year-old leader of Prestonwood Baptist Church in Plano attended the ceremony at the White House where President Donald Trump formally announced his nomination of conservative Amy Coney Barrett for the Supreme Court. Since the event, at least 10 attendees have tested positive for the coronavirus, which causes COVID-19, including former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, who was photographed sitting directly behind Graham. Pastor Greg Laurie of Harvest Christian Fellowship in Riverside, Calif., was sitting next to Graham and also later tested positive.
Graham, Laurie and Christie were among the vast majority of people not wearing a mask at the event.
Robert Morris, the senior pastor at Gateway Church in Southlake, was photographed at the Rose Garden ceremony without a mask. He was seated directly behind Notre Dame President John Jenkins, who was also unmasked and later tested positive for the virus.
A spokesperson for the church declined to comment on if Morris had been tested for the virus and was quarantining following his exposure.
A maskless Graham led his church’s service on Sunday and was photographed having a conversation with several worshippers afterward by a member of his congregation. Graham was not wearing a mask in the photo that was shared with The Dallas Morning News.
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends anyone exposed to someone who tests positive for the virus quarantine for at least 14 days following the exposure and maintain six feet of social distance from others.
“I am ridiculously healthy, let’s just put it that way,” Graham said during the service. “I’m not sick, I’m fine. … I don’t have COVID, let’s just put it that way, and I’m grateful for that.”
The CDC says symptoms of COVID-19 may appear two to 14 days after an exposure to someone infected with the virus, hence the quarantine recommendation. The Rose Garden event is still well-within that 14 day period.
A quarantine is used to keep someone who might have been infected with COVID-19 away from others to help “prevent spread of disease that can occur before a person knows they are sick or if they are infected with the virus without feeling symptoms,” according to the CDC.
They might like to see themselves that way, being from Texas. Kenneth Copeland is from Texas.
Friday, they had a little under 4000 new cases in Texas.
Coronavirus live updates: Nearly 4,000 confirmed cases in Texas reported Friday
8 p.m. The number of confirmed COVID-19 cases in the state increased by 3,965 Friday, bringing the total to 813,445, according to a Chronicle analysis. Another 113 deaths were reported, bringing the statewide total to 16,791.
The number of cases Friday was higher than 55 percent of all other days in the pandemic. The new death total was higher than 76 percent of all other days. The state's rolling average for new cases is now at 4,228.7. The positive test rate is now at 6.6 percent and the rolling average of viral tests is now at 53,898.
In the Houston region, another 623 cases were confirmed, bringing the total to 207, 331. The total of deaths in the region is 3,551, up 14 from Thursday.
The number of cases Friday was higher than 55 percent of all other days in the pandemic. The new death total was higher than 76 percent of all other days. The state's rolling average for new cases is now at 4,228.7. The positive test rate is now at 6.6 percent and the rolling average of viral tests is now at 53,898.
In the Houston region, another 623 cases were confirmed, bringing the total to 207, 331. The total of deaths in the region is 3,551, up 14 from Thursday.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Simple. Not forgetting the assembling ourselves together does not mean that we have to meet in large numbers in a church building. The only requirement was for two or three meeting together in his name. Stick to that and you do not have any problem.
historyb
Well-Known Member
You know nothing of my Church. We are not based on law nor have a penal code. We have the Eucharist which you guys don't have, that's why Church is nothing but a social club for evangelicals and can happen anywhere
Hi Mike,
That's the beauty in Christ. We love our wives, as Christ wants us to. We love them as our bodies, so we do what we need to protect them. I'm convinced God not only understands, but that He takes pleasure in our care for them, both being in our hearts to do so, and as according to His Word.
And He knows our desire for fellowship and serving, and He knows how to care for our spiritual needs. Man, I need to hear this right now! I'm tired of isolation! But it's perfectly obvious where that thought comes from, so, I'm glad you brought this up!
Much love!
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
So let me see if I have got this right. If you don't have the eucharist which is not in scripture the church is a social club? If that is the case, I thought that going to a meeting to go through a religious ritual was as much a social club as anything else.
Plus, your devotion to the non-biblbical eucharist seems to be a law to me.
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I trust your church discourages any association with Halloween. That avatar needs to be replaced.
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