The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

[justbyfaith]

Unable to respond to the content - JBF decides snide comments from the peanut gallery might do the trick

Have you lost your voice Luke - so twisted and turned are thy thoughts that thy vocal chords no longer work ?

Speak man -- was another poster today what was on the ground in the fetal position .. mumbling sweet nothings to themselves - must be in the air .. weather is bad here .. looks like snow coming .. how about where you are at ? Covid got your knickers in a tizzy ?

No, I simply had something to say that didn't fit in with the rest of my response...so I put it in a separate post.

 

[Heyzeus]

Of the college professor type God says this...

Rom 1:21, Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22, Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

That's a good passage mate - you should take heed.. as you have definitely corrupted God into an image of like to corruptible man - putting God into a tiny little literalist box... labeling The Most High with the most petty and nasty of Human emotions and characteristics is exactly what you have done !

To you God is this flip flopping xenophobe - as discussed previously - who one day says children should not be killed for the sins of their parents .. and the next is making a rule that says children should be killed - because their parents are worshiping Idols .. and according to you the sin for this transfers on to the children - such that it is the Children who are the sinners .. and thus must be punished with death.

Sure God is real pleased with that depiction .. Fortunately .. Jesus came round to correct the situation .. now you don't have to follow those silly man made laws that were attributed to God .. Just follow the 10 commands .. and the Golden Rule .. as taught to you by the Professor..

Now heed the teachings of Jesus my earnest student .. Do unto others as you would have done to you .. The rest is all commentary.

 

[justbyfaith]

Right, and no one is saying that. Works will never literally pay for one's entrance into the kingdom of God. What happens is a person's holy living justifies him as being righteous. Righteous in Christ of course, not of his own accord. That's different than what Paul is talking about when he says a person is justified by his faith in God. Paul is speaking of securing a legal declaration of being made righteous by believing in and accepting the cleansing forgiveness of God. James is talking about being declared righteous by the evidence of your works. A person must be justified by both faith and works in order to enter into the kingdom of God. Which only stands to reason. I mean if you've been given the power of the Holy Spirit to live holy it follows that you would then live holy and that holiness could be used to judge you as righteous at the resurrection. Just as your unrighteousness is used to judge you as a goat that goes to the left into destruction.

If someone is declared righteous by his faith, how is it that a lack of works is going to then work to declare him unrighteous?

I agree that a man who is righteous before God will live a holy life; yet to be splitting hairs and to be accurate according to holy scripture, living a holy life does not save the man. The man is saved by faith alone unto living a holy life.

If he is declared rightoeus by his faith, a lack of works is not going to work to declare him unrighteous on his day of judgment.

So, I suppose the question is as to whether a man who has been declared righteous would then be cast into hell for lack of works?

 

[justbyfaith]

That's a good passage mate - you should take heed.. as you have definitely corrupted God into an image of like to corruptible man - putting God into a tiny little literalist box... labeling The Most High with the most petty and nasty of Human emotions and characteristics is exactly what you have done !

To you God is this flip flopping xenophobe - as discussed previously - who one day says children should not be killed for the sins of their parents .. and the next is making a rule that says children should be killed - because their parents are worshiping Idols .. and according to you the sin for this transfers on to the children - such that it is the Children who are the sinners .. and thus must be punished with death.

Sure God is real pleased with that depiction .. Fortunately .. Jesus came round to correct the situation .. now you don't have to follow those silly man made laws that were attributed to God .. Just follow the 10 commands .. and the Golden Rule .. as taught to you by the Professor..

Now heed the teachings of Jesus my earnest student .. Do unto others as you would have done to you .. The rest is all commentary.

Your contention that there are contradictions in the Bible is simply unacceptable...and you are not going to shame me out of the reconciliation that exists between those scriptures.

 

[Heyzeus]

I beg to differ..

You want to believe it took Paul 3 years of direct Pupilage under Jesus for him to get the teachings straight .. who am I to say otherwise .. other than .. It isn't in Scripture.

So, it seems to me that you are advocating "smorgasborg religion"

No I don't .. it is you what advocates the smorgasborg .. one day you want to kill children for the sins of their parents - the next day you don't -depending on what of God's many rules one Choses

I have always stressed the teachings of Jesus - while you run to the smorgasboard of Pauline and Pesudo Pauline Literature.

It seems to be what you do..

What is it now you are accusing me of .. Projection is your forte - and no content .. you cry "you don't post enough scripture" - but the scripture you post is cut and paste dribble that often has much volume .. but zero to do with the topic being discussed .. other than some made up new box you have For God.. of which there are many.

 

[Heyzeus]

Your contention that there are contradictions in the Bible is simply unacceptable...and you are not going to shame me out of the reconciliation that exists between those scriptures.

Only the blind do not recognize the obvious contradictions and conflicts found in many places in the Bible however, if you wish to believe Children should be killed if their parents or relatives start worshiping Idols.. Let me not try to dissuade you further.

The literalist perspective is a road to the dark side IMO - one which the vast majority of Christianity recognizes as such and steer clear.

 

[justbyfaith]

No I don't .. it is you what advocates the smorgasborg .. one day you want to kill children for the sins of their parents - the next day you don't -depending on what of God's many rules one Choses

Again, the children in that scripture are killed for their own sins.

Jde 1:14, And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jde 1:15, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jde 1:16, These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

I have always stressed the teachings of Jesus - while you run to the smorgasboard of Pauline and Pesudo Pauline Literature.

By speaking of "smorgasborg religion" I am referring to the practice of picking and choosing what you want to believe in and practice out of scripture...and in denying Paul you are doing just that.

Whereas I do not deny the teachings of Jesus; while I observe them in light of Pauline scripture.

Only the blind do not recognize the obvious contradictions and conflicts found in many places in the Bible however, if you wish to believe Children should be killed if their parents or relatives start worshiping Idols.. Let me not try to dissuade you further.

The literalist perspective is a road to the dark side IMO - one which the vast majority of Christianity recognizes as such and steer clear.

Of course those things were given as part of the Old Testament and are not to be observed today...which is diiferent from saying that the passages in question are not the word of the Lord or that they are in contradiction to each other. They are not. There is perfect reconciliation for every apparent contradiction in holy scripture; and I have shown you the reconciliation over the contentions that you have made already. You do not accept the reconciliation as valid...and that is fine.

I will say that children dying for their own sins is no more or less horrific than them dying for the sins of their parents. But in that they die for their own sins, it reconciles the apparent contradiction that you have set forth.

And God, also, will be justified when He is judged (Romans 3:4).

 

[Heyzeus]

Again, the children in that scripture are killed for their own sins.

I will say that children dying for their own sins is no more or less horrific than them dying for the sins of their parents. But in that they die for their own sins, it reconciles the apparent contradiction that you have set forth.

And God, also, will be justified when He is judged (Romans 3:4).

The children are not killed for their own sins.. Scripture is clear on the reason for their death - because their parent or relatives were worshiping other Gods..

You can't handle your own belief .. and so you wiggle around trying to witchcraft your way out of the mess ..

If you wish to believe that children should be killed if their parents are worshiping other Gods .. that is your burden to carry.

Your claim that the contradiction is reconciled is falsehood and self deception - the blind that can not see .. and who run from the teachings of Jesus in to the loving arms of Paul when these two conflict..

So you wish to live in a society where children are killed if their parents or relative worship Idols .. and where totalitarian dictators who subjugate you and commit all forms of atrocity are to be viewed as God's Chosen servants and obeyed without question .. not rebelled against.

Lovely

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If someone is declared righteous by his faith, how is it that a lack of works is going to then work to declare him unrighteous?

His lack of works will show he's not really declared righteous by faith.

 

[Renniks]

Right, and no one is saying that. Works will never literally pay for one's entrance into the kingdom of God. What happens is a person's holy living justifies him as being righteous. Righteous in Christ of course, not of his own accord. That's different than what Paul is talking about when he says a person is justified by his faith in God. Paul is speaking of securing a legal declaration of being made righteous by believing in and accepting the cleansing forgiveness of God. James is talking about being declared righteous by the evidence of your works. A person must be justified by both faith and works in order to enter into the kingdom of God. Which only stands to reason. I mean if you've been given the power of the Holy Spirit to live holy it follows that you would then live holy and that holiness could be used to judge you as righteous at the resurrection. Just as your unrighteousness is used to judge you as a goat that goes to the left into destruction.

If you are merely saying faith will always show, I agree, but " holiness" is highly subjective. I guess I've been burnt on the topic and no longer feel inclined to decide who is in or out. We all have our sins.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

to be accurate according to holy scripture, living a holy life does not save the man.

Right. Living a holy life doesn't save a man by making him righteous and able to earn entry into the kingdom. His holy life saves him in that Jesus will use his holy life as the proof that he has "faith expressing itself in love" for Jesus. Faith that expresses itself in love (Galatians 5:6) is the faith that justifies and thus saves a man, not faith that is alone (James 2:14) as the church thinks. A lot of people in the church are going to stand before Christ when he comes back with their faith alone expecting to go into the kingdom and Jesus will send them to the left and into the lake of fire, while a few in the church will stand before Christ with their faith expressed in love and they will go to the right and into the kingdom. If you do not believe this then you do not believe the Bible. It's that simple. You should not be surprised that the church does not teach the truth.

The man is saved by faith alone unto living a holy life.

That is right, but the church lops off the 'holy life' part and insists that faith that is alone saves a person too. But as I've shown you, even Paul said it is the faith that expresses itself in love that justifies (Galatians 5:6). Most in the church don't believe him or James and are betting their faith that is alone is sufficient to save them when Jesus comes back.

 

[Renniks]

Well .. you have presumed incorrectly methinks .. while I am sure God can do this - I do not see it as sensible or reasonable .. nor scriptural for that matter.

Jesus was made divine at his Baptism according to the earliest account and one closest to the source.. you must be confusing me with someone who accepts modern Trinity Dogma .. a man made doctrine.. from which little good has come.

You aren't a Christian. Got it.. why not just be honest about it from the start?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If you are merely saying faith will always show, I agree, but " holiness" is highly subjective. I guess I've been burnt on the topic and no longer feel inclined to decide who is in or out. We all have our sins.

If you're not living for Christ, you're out. It's really that simple. I'm not talking about the person who's engaged in the struggle between right and wrong behavior and maybe loses the battle a lot. I'm talking about the person who sins with no struggle. He's still in the comfort of his old life, unchanged. Righteousness is the bothersome, alien thing that pops up in his life. For the true Christian, sin is the alien thing in his life.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I agree, but " holiness" is highly subjective.

And by the way I disagree with this. It's pretty clear in long passages of scripture what holy living looks like. You probably don't 'see' them because the church doesn't see them. Your pastor probably doesn't see them. No one it seems sees them in the Bible. But the church is real good at seeing the one or two sentences about witnessing, giving to the church, attending church, etc. The church doesn't know what matters in the Christian faith. They are not ready to meet Jesus when he comes back.

 

[Heyzeus]

You aren't a Christian. Got it.. why not just be honest about it from the start?

Why must one need accept modern Trinity Dogma to be a Christian ? Is it such a sin to believe that Jesus is divine .. but subordinate to the Father ?

I am thinking you can not justify your position - and are in danger of usurping the Position of Jesus. Who are you to say who is a follower .. and who is not ... that Jesus was not "Sent" by the Father .. that The Father called down to himself stating "you are my Son" instead of You are Me ! and there is no distinction between the son and the Father.

OK .. lets hear it .. tell me why I will not make it through the pearly gates on the basis of believing that the Father proceeds the Son out of the Godhead.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If he is declared rightoeus by his faith, a lack of works is not going to work to declare him unrighteous on his day of judgment.

Yes, it will. Because if he had the righteousness of faith he wouldn't be standing before Christ without works of righteousness to show for the righteousness he has through faith in God's forgiveness.

So, I suppose the question is as to whether a man who has been declared righteous would then be cast into hell for lack of works?

No, he wouldn't. Because the born again man, the saved man, is justified by both his faith and his works, not by faith that is alone. His faith in God's forgiveness caused him to become a new creation by the Holy Spirit, and that new creation now seeks to do righteous things and to put unrighteous things behind him. The saved man has his mind set on the things of the Spirit. The unsaved man has his mind set on the things of his flesh. The things of the Spirit are an invasive thing in the unsaved man's life, while sin is the uninvited invasive thing in the saved man's life. I remember this very distinctly, how before I got saved I longed for sin and righteousness got in the way. Now I long for righteousness and sin gets in the way.

 

[Heyzeus]

And by the way I disagree with this. It's pretty clear in long passages of scripture what holy living looks like. You probably don't 'see' them because the church doesn't see them. Your pastor probably doesn't see them. No one it seems sees them in the Bible. But the church is real good at seeing the one or two sentences about witnessing, giving to the church, attending church, etc. The church doesn't know what matters in the Christian faith. They are not ready to meet Jesus when he comes back.

I would not say this is true of the whole Church .. some of the Eastern Orthodox variations seem to manage much better - the balance of dogma and life .. integrating a bit of the spiritual - into an otherwise empty Cross.

 

[Heyzeus]

Yes, it will. Because if he had the righteousness of faith he wouldn't be standing before Christ without works of righteousness to show for the righteousness he has through faith in God's forgiveness.


No, he wouldn't. Because the born again man, the saved man, is justified by both his faith and his works, not by faith that is alone. His faith in God's forgiveness caused him to become a new creation by the Holy Spirit, and that new creation now seeks to do righteous things and to put unrighteous things behind him. The saved man has his mind set on the things of the Spirit. The unsaved man has his mind set on the things of his flesh. The things of the Spirit are an invasive thing in the unsaved man's life, while sin is the uninvited invasive thing in the saved man's life. I remember this very distinctly, how before I got saved I longed for sin and righteousness got in the way. Now I long for righteousness and sin gets in the way.

Very well put .. and a fusion of Pauline doctrine in much better with the teachings of Jesus .. well done - And Paul emphasizes the necessity of works in Romans .. talking about Judgement . how the Jews first - by the law .. and then the Gentiles .. who still have to undergo judgement but via a law unto their conscience .. as at the end of days Heyzeus going be judging what you done.

Consider this quote from Jesus "I do not PassJudgement - but, When I Judge - I do so with authority from the Most High... den you be askin .. hmmm perhaps I should do a good thing or two .. try not to shag me neighbor's prize Filly ..uphold basic standards of honor and integrity .. and of course ..

Don't do to others what you hate .. The rest is all just commentary - Rabbai Hillel
Don't do to others what you hate .. "This sums up the Law and the Prophets" - Heyzeus aka Yeshua .. Matt 7:12

If there was one passage that you could give - to sum up our Lord .. above is the answer given to you by "The Most High" .. be that be Shiva, Buddha, Confucius, Hamurrabi, El-YHWH, or Jesus.

So pay attention when God speaks :} !

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Nothing in the passage states that there was any teaching ... never mind 3 years taught by Jesus - or the spirit .. or what ever.

This is completely made up other than the part that went into Arabia and returned to Jerusalem 3 years later.

You think Paul was out there for three years twiddling his thumbs ?

 

[Heyzeus]

You think Paul was out there for three years twiddling his thumbs ?

No idea what he was doing - and neither do you .. perhaps he thought he try his hand at farming...

Regardless .. if Jesus was there teaching Paul for 3 years .. he is a darn slow learner and/or Jesus a really poor teacher.