The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

[justbyfaith]

that God will punish .. not you of course because you have a free pass through the pearly gates ..

At least now you admit the reality of that.

1+1+1=1 in Heaven's math.

Actually, it is 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.

 

[BarneyFife]

You are just rambling now .. none of those English translations be it 5 or 30 - will include the other divinities as per the Older versions.. as every one of those English translations you own is a "modern Translation" all will claim it is "Gods Land" rather than the Peoples Land .. and all will have God Atoning rather than cleansing... as per the MT - the book the Modern Text was translated from .. and deliberately altered.

So why would you bother stating that you have 30 of them .. Is 30 bad translations better than one ? Does having many as opposed to one bad translation somehow add weight to your non existent argument ?

This is not skepticism .. but simply stating a fact .. one that you are desperate to avoid and ignore .. because if one tiny pillar in your literalist platform falls .. the whole structure collapses.

This is not building foundation on Rock my friend.. Try and challenge my structure - you can not - you can't even dent it .. like throwing a wet rag at a brick wall.

Yet we believe essentially the same thing .. That God is one ...and salvation can be obtained through Jesus. - we are not so different .. despite your attempts to cast me as under the influence of Satan.

Do you think I do not understand where you are at in your spirituality ? Do you think I have not walked in your shoes - from a spiritual perspective ?

I am not coming from "winning" - because if I lose on some technical point - the whole structure falls .. so I have to win .. no matter what amount of mind bending twisting .. yeeesshhhhhh ..

You say "I have heard it all before" -- though you have never heard some of the stuff I am throwing at you ... other stuff yes .. not the first time you have heard someone challenge the flood story ... but not like me .. never .. you have never considered the continuous civilization argument ... you have heard the "how do we pack all those animals into such a small space" argument.

Do you think your responses - or rather response pattern - I have not heard before ? .. I can direct you to numerous other posters on this site .. like pushing B7 on the Jukebox .. put in your quarter and the same song plays.

You have never had someone tell you the story of El - and how he was the God of Abraham .. despite the fact that you can read this in the Encyclopedia Brittanica .. although not nearly as in depth as I go.

You have never heard the vacation argument - with respect to when the soul arrives - and considered the ramifications for the Catholic concept of "ensoulment" - in which you believe deeply.

Its not really heaven if you can't take a vacation once in awhile now is it ? Yet you live in a world where you were completely convinced that should someone terminate a process .. one that started well before conception .. that God will punish .. not you of course because you have a free pass through the pearly gates .. but punish those followers of Satan who do not have a free pass.

So here is a question that does not challenge your foundation .. or shouldn't .. don't see how it could as any answer to this question is completely compatible with literalism.

When does the soul arrive - during the process .. from the twinkle in your fathers eye .. to the head popping out ..
And if the soul has not arrived yet .. does a person exist ?

I have never even hinted that you were satanic. You do seem to be exhibiting some strange expressions now, though. You're asking me to answer questions that you openly describe as being traps. I'm not going to satisfy your twisted curiosity. I almost find it amusing that you think you know anything about my spiritual life. Abortion-baiting now. That is just priceless.

Who's desperate and rambling? You might want to examine yourself.

 

[BarneyFife]

At least now you admit the reality of that.



Actually, it is 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.

Yeah, that's the latest craze and it's cute and all but it makes no logical sense at all. I was taught to add things up when there's more than one. How would you describe the multiplication process within the Godhead Itself?

And I have no idea where you're getting the "At least now" stuff. I don't remember ever depicting the Trinity as anything other than orthodoxy.

 

[ChristisGod]

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:26)

This verse is rendered plural (us, our, we, etc.) in every one of the 28 translations featured on BibleHub.com.

You seem to be elevating The Son above The Father for some reason. The Godhead (Father, Son, Spirit) is Sovereign. 1+1+1=1 in Heaven's math. I don't understand it but I don't deny it.

no worries just a miscommunication

 

[BarneyFife]

no worries just a miscommunication

Hallelujah!

 

[BarneyFife]

I really love this board. A lot of people (at least) ultimately get along here.

CF is a bloodbath.

 

[BarneyFife]

This is not skepticism .. but simply stating a fact .. one that you are desperate to avoid and ignore .. because if one tiny pillar in your literalist platform falls .. the whole structure collapses.

Or it could just be that I'm willing to concede that the Framer of stars and worlds is smarter than me. That could be a thing.

 

[BarneyFife]

So why would you bother stating that you have 30 of them

I don't have 30 translations. The BibleHub.com web site has 28 (by my quick count--not infallible) online. You shouldn't refer to so many things at once if you're not going to be bothered with details. Are you okay?

 

[BarneyFife]

You have never had

You have never heard

I said I've heard it all or something like it. There's nothing new under the sun.

 

[BarneyFife]

I gave you 3 options

Uh, "2 choices" was a direct quote and it wasn't related to the question with 3 options.

 

[justbyfaith]

And I have no idea where you're getting the "At least now" stuff. I don't remember ever depicting the Trinity as anything other than orthodoxy.

I was talking to @Heyzeus when I said that.

 

[BarneyFife]

I was talking to @Heyzeus when I said that.

Sorry

 

[Heyzeus]

I don't have 30 translations. The BibleHub.com web site has 28 (by my quick count--not infallible) online. You shouldn't refer to so many things at once if you're not going to be bothered with details. Are you okay?

You are the one not bothering with details.. quit projecting your issues onto me .. and who cares how many translations you have .. if they all say the same thing.

You have no idea what you are talking about .. no purpose .. no point .. other than a desperate attempt to demonize by mischaracterization and deception..

 

[justbyfaith]

and who cares how many translations you have .. if they all say the same thing.

If they all say the same thing, that is an indication that they are all translated correctly and are reliable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness.

 

[Heyzeus]

I have never even hinted that you were satanic. You do seem to be exhibiting some strange expressions now, though. You're asking me to answer questions that you openly describe as being traps. I'm not going to satisfy your twisted curiosity. I almost find it amusing that you think you know anything about my spiritual life. Abortion-baiting now. That is just priceless.

Who's desperate and rambling? You might want to examine yourself.

Perhaps I confused you with some of the other literalists .. my apologies if this was not you. The question is only a trap to the literalist - for the rest and the vast majority of Christians .. this is not a problem to worry about. A strong foundation does not consist of running from the Truth .. it consists of confronting the Truth head on.

If you are trapped by the simple question - - Should we kill babies for the sins of their parents .. or not - then you are trapped indeed.
or the simple question - Does Deut 32:43 talk about "other divinities" or not .. then you are already trapped.

The last question I asked however - contained no literalist Trap ..so why did you not answer that one ? "When does the soul arrive"
What - are you now terrified that it might be a trap ? - so on pins and needles are you.

In the case of the last question - it is not scripture that is trapping you - but your man made dogma .. but again .. this is no threat to your literalist perspective.. or at least it shouldn't be.

anyways .. nice chatting - think this horse has been flogged one to many times

 

[BarneyFife]

You are the one not bothering with details

This, after quoting me giving the exact number of translations on a popular Bible study website. I don't know where the cognitive dissonance is coming from. Don't you have anything to say except "I know you are but what am I?" and "Demonize, Demonize" ? I can't help it if you keep asking questions that are of no concern to me. I don't care to slice and dice Scripture according to some goofball Unbelief 101 professor from some apostate institution somewhere. Tell me, did you actually discover any of the difficulties you advance as conflicts, or are you just parroting something you read on the Internet or in a book?

How about that OSAS, huh?

 

[BarneyFife]

Perhaps I confused you with some of the other literalists .. my apologies if this was not you. The question is only a trap to the literalist - for the rest and the vast majority of Christians .. this is not a problem to worry about. A strong foundation does not consist of running from the Truth .. it consists of confronting the Truth head on.

If you are trapped by the simple question - - Should we kill babies for the sins of their parents .. or not - then you are trapped indeed.
or the simple question - Does Deut 32:43 talk about "other divinities" or not .. then you are already trapped.

The last question I asked however - contained no literalist Trap ..so why did you not answer that one ? "When does the soul arrive"
What - are you now terrified that it might be a trap ? - so on pins and needles are you.

In the case of the last question - it is not scripture that is trapping you - but your man made dogma .. but again .. this is no threat to your literalist perspective.. or at least it shouldn't be.

anyways .. nice chatting - think this horse has been flogged one to many times

Yeah, I think we were done long before now.

 

[justbyfaith]

It should be clear that in Israel's history the Israelites disobeyed the command by God to wipe out the pagan nations (killing the children for the sins of the fathers)...

And as the result the idolatry of the nations infiltrated the thought life of Israel to the extent that they eventually sacrificed their own children to Molech.

And also, the command to wipe out the nations (and also, those who would promote idolatry in Israel) was not a command to kill the children for the sins of their parents; but for their own sins (see Psalms 58:3).

 

[Heyzeus]

If they all say the same thing, that is an indication that they are all translated correctly and are reliable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness.

I meant the same thing in one passage .. they don't all say the same thing but, irrespective of this .. even if they did .. as they do on this passage .. recopying the same error - over and over is no indication of being translated correctly.

In this particular case - all or all of the reputable ..meaning perhaps some Jeohva witness bible says something different .. NIV, KJV, .. and so on
the 28 that our friend was referring to .. all say the same thing .. but are all transcribed from the same source .. that source being the MT.

So if the MT is flawed - oopppss .. which was demonstrated by comparison to the LXX and 4DeutQ.

But even if the MT was not Flawed .. corrupted by the sin of omission - in this passage - The modern Translation still messes it up.

but just for giggles .. how about we look at differences - even among modern Translations - starting with one of my favorite passages .. one which I thought was strange as a teenager .. studying the Bible .. a long time ago. KJV was one of the worst of modern Translations (not sure if the new revised version has been corrected) .. but just sayin ... heh heh .. oh .. is that the one you use ? sorry if that is the case.

Proverbs 6:26
NLT - "For a prostitute will bring you to poverty, but sleeping with another man’s wife will cost you your life"
KJV For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adultress will hunt for the precious life

Hmmm .. these are kind of similar .. OK
What do the Lutherans have to say .. they should have some good translators .. being the founding Church and all.

GNT "A man can hire a prostitute for the price of a loaf of bread, but adultery will cost him all he has"

Holy dang ding dong diddly do daaa... That is completely different .. feel free to post a few more ... bibles are all over the map on this one.

This is typical when scribes were dealing with translations relating to passages of a sexual nature.

If one actually reads the passage .. the meaning is clear ... as per the GNT translation The son is being warned against adultery .. told of the jealous husband .. no amount of payment will satisfy .. the lesson being stressed is that adultery is just stupid .. like holding a burning piece of metal to your chest..

15 Be faithful to your own wife and give your love to her alone. 16 Children that you have by other women will do you no good. 17 Your children should grow up to help you, not strangers.

Classic and timeless good advice .. but we digress.

What is 6:26 saying exactly - is that if you must satisfy your needs .. don't do it with another mans wife .. it is better to go with a prostitute - while not good .. and not so much condoning this - than to sleep with another mans wife .. because a prostitute will cost you only the price of a loaf of bread .. where the adulterous woman will cost you all you have "Your Life" in other versions .. same idea.

Some dem translators didn't like this .. so dey obscure da meaning best they could ..

Same BS with the term "Fornication" - a garbage can term they threw into various passages with sexual connotation .. in many cases incorrectly.. just the way things go when you have an agenda .. and a dogma to promote. You would call this "Inspired artistic license" I suppose .. but hard to imagine God giving out so many licenses .. each saying different things.

Once again we can take comfort in James 1:16 this time Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. 17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

And while we are here
22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

Yes JBF - it is the doing of the word .. not the hearing .. nor the praying .. nor the praising Jesus .. and no one has a free pass through Judgement.

 

[BarneyFife]

Holy dang ding dong diddly do daaa... That is completely different .. feel free to post a few more ... bibles are all over the map on this one.

Is it proper to be so flippant about such an important topic (or off-topic)? This seems a bit vulgar to me. Just saying. Doubt you will answer this question directly.

Same BS

Really? Abbreviations for four-letter words now? Really?