Not faith alone?

[Ferris Bueller]

All the faithful bishops the valid successors of the apostles
Has to be so to the end! Matt 28:19 I am with you (the apostles) unto the end

Jesus is with us, lo, even to the end of the age via the HOLY SPIRIT. Christ is in us and among us by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Man wrote the Bible guided by the HS why can’t they have authority to teach the truth by the same spirit?

As long as they stick to the script, and are called to do that, they can. What I'm against is those who are sure they are doing that and are called but really aren't. And they try to bully us into accepting their supposed authority with scare tactics. Any time you have a church or a leader that won't hold the door open for you to go where you want to go you're dealing with a carnal, unspiritual, unsent man.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You have to deal with what it says in Ezekiel 33:11-20...

It seems to me, in that passage, to be saying that if we sin after having received the imputed righteousness of Christ, that our righteousness will not save us in the day of our transgression.

Well what seems to you is not what is written.

Learn what it means when God call someone wicked! It isn't anywhere close to what you imply here.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Which is why we need to remember the difference between sinning because we're weak in Christ and sinning because we have fallen away from belief in Christ. We don't even need to bring in the argument of if we were ever really saved to begin with. Because if we were never really saved to begin with we will go to hell for our unbelief. And if we really were saved and fell away we still go to hell for that unbelief. All unbelievers go to hell. So there's no point in beating that argument to death. All unbelievers—whether they ever really believed in God or not, that's not the point—go to the lake of fire when Jesus comes back. And even though there is the difference between sin that is committed because of weakness, and sin that is committed because you are fallen away, the Bible does talk about how sinning can lead to falling away in unbelief.

Well you can believe that one can lose their salvation by this "falling away" you say, but that is not what Scripture teaches for the church!

When one is saved they are born into the family of god, sealed until the day of redemption, perfected forever, will never be forsaken by God, seated in heavenly places, glorifies, justified, His salvation is kept by Jesus, given eternal life and will not perish, being made holy, dead and their life hidden in Christ, promised that ALL things will work for his good, etc.etc.etc.etc.. That is how deep and powerful the love of God is.

People do nto go to hell becuase of sin or even a season where they supposedly "fall away", but they go to the lake of fire because they never accepted the death and resurrection of Jesus for their sin. One only need do that once and then the rest beginds to happen because of Him, not us.

And they were never saved is the only answer the bible says to teh religious and even "christianized " person.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Well you can believe that one can lose their salvation by this "falling away"

How do you know how I was using that phrase? To one party it means falling away from actually being saved. To the other party it means falling away from the institution of faith. Like I say, it doesn't matter which you believe. You're damned to hell either way. So what's the point of arguing who is right?

 

[justbyfaith]

How do you know how I was using that phrase? To one party it means falling away from actually being saved. To the other party it means falling away from the institution of faith. Like I say, it doesn't matter which you believe. You're damned to hell either way. So what's the point of arguing who is right?

Because if they actually fell away from faith, it is impossible to renew them to repentance.

And therefore if they only fell away from an institution of faith, they can repent.

The first proposition offers no hope to the one who believes that he once knew Christ and fell away.

The second proposition offers a great amount of hope; notwithstanding, he must admit that he was never saved and that may be a subject of spiritual pride on his part.

 

[justbyfaith]

Well what seems to you is not what is written.

Learn what it means when God call someone wicked! It isn't anywhere close to what you imply here.

This is what is written (let the reader decide for himself!):

Eze 33:11, Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 33:12, Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
Eze 33:13, When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
Eze 33:14, Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
Eze 33:15, If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 33:16, None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
Eze 33:17, Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
Eze 33:18, When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
Eze 33:19, But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
Eze 33:20, Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

PS what is your definition of someone who is wicked?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Because if they actually fell away from faith, it is impossible to renew them to repentance.

And therefore if they only fell away from an institution of faith, they can repent.

The first proposition offers no hope to the one who believes that he once knew Christ and fell away.

The second proposition offers a great amount of hope; notwithstanding, he must admit that he was never saved and that may be a subject of spiritual pride on his part.

I'm okay with all this. But would you ever tell someone they can't come back to repentance? I think it best to just leave that to what it is. That's a matter for God to deal with, not us. Because don't forget, there are two scenarios here that could be argued too. One is the person who never believed to begin with reaches the point of constant rejection where God no longer calls him. And the other is the person who really did believe reaches the point of no return in their rejection of their salvation. So again, kind of pointless to argue the point. Both are damned to hell regardless of which scenario is the accurate one. Instead of all that we need to be focusing on believing and knowing that we really do believe and are ready in that same believing to meet Jesus when he comes back. That's what I see the Bible focusing on and encouraging us in, not whether or not you can lose your salvation.

 

[justbyfaith]

Both are damned to hell regardless of which scenario is the accurate one.

One of them may not be damned to hell from an eternal perspective; because they have an opportunity to, as well as the ability to, repent.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

One of them may not be damned to hell from an eternal perspective; because they have an opportunity to, as well as the ability to, repent.

For now they are condemned.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

The question is will they remain that way.

And, no, they may not always have the opportunity and the ability to repent. There comes a time when God says enough. You've had all the chances I'll give you to accept salvation.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
9The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, 10and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. 11For this reason God will send them a powerful delusion so that they believe the lie, 12in order that judgment may come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.

 

[Illuminator]

Matthew 7:15-16
15“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them.

Just because a leader is wearing sheep's clothing doesn't mean I HAVE to listen to what he says. I'm free to discern his message via the Holy Spirit and decide if I'm going to submit to his authority.

I'm all for Paul's 'REAL CHURCH' mentality. God has given me the discernment to know the real church. Which, by the way, does not exist in a particular denomination or sect in these end times. The truth comes to the people of God through various teachers dispersed throughout the body of Christ. They don't belong to any one man made institution exclusively. You'll find them in and out of our various denominations because no one church represents the complete truth of God at this time.

Paul was always subject to the Church.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

He wants to change BOTH the inside and the outside. They are equally important because they are directly connected. Both of the categories of stuff you listed are inside the cup issues. Porn is just as much an inside the cup issue as anger is. Deal with the lust inside a man and you'll deal with the porn on the outside. Jesus was explaining that when you clean the inside of the cup the outside of the cup gets clean. He was not creating a distinction between outside of the cup sins and inside of the cup sins, and that he was somehow more concerned about inside of the cup issues and giving a pass for outside of the cup issues.

Matthew 23:23
You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Jesus works on the “ inside of the cup” ,and pays no heed to the outside Of said cup—— Transform The Inside ( something Only “ HE” can do ) and the Outside will take care of itself......

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Brick building or not, any teacher that says you can purposely live in sin and still be saved is a cult leader. Ultimately, in the end, any person who purposely sins is an unbeliever.

Nope....Everybody Sins....everybody at Times Sins “ willfully”..... everybody takes advantage of Grace ... Believers and Non- Believers alike
It is shameful, but nevertheless True.....anybody with a trace of Common Sense , self- insight and honesty knows it and admits it ....
Here is something Else that is True.... Non Believers can do these things and “ get away” with it in their Earthly Existence.....look at all of the UNIMAGINABLE PAIN that Hitler imposed on millions of humans ! Do you think that he paid for those Countless Sins in His Earthly Existence? He certainly is paying right now for his sins, but not while he was here.Non- Believers like Hitler are NOT God's Children — he calls them “ Bastards” .Bastards get away with sin oft times —- Believers NEVER DO! That is the difference....a Christian that willfully sins is a Stupid or Weak Christian That is going to take a stroll to “ God’s Wood-Shed” and get an “ attitude adjustment”, God’s Chastisement at work—- Done to you “ For Your Own Good”
Salvation is not an issue in this “Confirming you into the very image of His Son” Process.Remember? Your Salvation was a GIFT !....based SOLELY on God’s Mercy and GIVEN to you if you Simply Believed Paul’s Gospel Of 1Cor15:1-4.Yep, God declares that Salvation is a “ GIFT” and “ God's Gifts are irrevocable”. He declared “that”too........
Paul had to deal with a Born Again , Saved member of His Church that had Relations with his own Mother ( “ Perhaps” step-Mother ) You gonna tell me this was an “ accidental” sin? Horse Hockey! It was a Willful, Deliberate Sin.His “ Chastisement” was getting kicked out of the Fellowship Of Believers at Corinth. He finally came to his senses, abandoned his sin , and was happily and compassionately restored and brought back into Fellowship. His Salvation was never in question ....
Had this man continued in his Sin and made the Foolish mistake of ignoring God’s Chastisement, God would probably have “ Rewarded” this man’s Stupidity by sending him to a very early grave and when he stands before God he will join that “ ashamed” group of Believers who got Saved, But Saved by the Skin Of their Teeth—- “ like a man barely escaping a house- fire”......

 

[BloodBought 1953]

You are adding to the word of God (Deuteronomy 12:32; Revelation 22:18).

That’s presumptuous on your part (Numbers 15:30).

And even if your presumption was correct, in your doctrine she could theoretically commit that same specific sin again and still be saved.

It ridiculous either way (Ezekiel 18:25).

The scripture reveals the true intent in men’s heart. They resist the truth because the corrupt carnal man cannot receive it (2 Timothy 3:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14). These type of people have not been renewed in the Spirit of their mind (Ephesians 4:23); just intellectually in the flesh (Romans 8:7).

Nobody is “ adding” to God's Word here....I am giving you my opinion in a debate concerning Scripture...just like you do.....nothing wrong with that...
The Sinful Woman could very well have gone out and committed the same sin again the next week or even the same day—- that is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY and you would know that if you have ever been “ Forgiven Much”...... it just ain’t the typical human reaction to Love and Forgiveness....
Just for the sake of argument....HAD she actually returned to her Sinful Lifestyle ,It is my “opinion” that God would have struck her dead—- real soon- like . If she was a Believer in Jesus, she still would have been saved because if her faith . That is what Saved her to begin with, not giving up her sinful ways. Her Faith would have Saved her— that’s the “Good News !” However , “ God will NOT be Mocked” —- that would be the woman’s Bad News.....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

That's why you have to have a changed life to be saved when Jesus comes back. The changed life is the result of being justified by faith in God's forgiveness. If the result isn't present then that which produces the result (forgiveness of sin) is not present and you will go to hell. That's how saying you have to have works to be saved is not saying works earn salvation.

Lol......reread your last sentence....put on your “ thinking cap” if you even have one.....see if you can’t ascertain the absurdly of What you are saying.....you contradict yourself in your own sentence and you don’t even see it .....sometimes in here , its like “ shooting fish in a barrel”......

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Paul was always subject to the Church.

There was a true church to submit to then. I was hoping you were grasping what I was saying. At one time there was one single church that did contain the whole truth. It isn't that way today. There is no one single denomination that has the complete truth. You have to put the pieces of truth together from all the different denominations for yourself now, discerning them through the anointing you have as a born again believer. It's every man for himself. We have no Paul's, and Peter's, and John's in the church anymore. The decay into the distorted truths of man made denominations started a long time ago.

Acts 20:29-30
29I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

That's how saying you have to have works to be saved is not saying works earn salvation.

Lol......reread your last sentence....put on your “ thinking cap” if you even have one.....see if you can’t ascertain the absurdly of What you are saying.....you contradict yourself in your own sentence and you don’t even see it .....sometimes in here , its like “ shooting fish in a barrel”......

Your problem is you think the phrase 'you have to have works to be saved' can ONLY mean 'works earn salvation'. You are literally incapable of seeing that having to have works in order to be saved from the lake of fire does not have to mean those works earn salvation. Even when it's explained to you, you still can't see it.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Nope....Everybody Sins....everybody at Times Sins “ willfully”...

Speak for yourself. Because I don't purposely sin. There's always some kind of struggle going on when I sin.

.. everybody takes advantage of Grace ... Believers and Non- Believers alike
It is shameful, but nevertheless True.....anybody with a trace of Common Sense , self- insight and honesty knows it and admits it ....

The question is, do you PURPOSELY take advantage of God's grace? Have you created a lifestyle of purposely taking advantage of God's grace as if it's your license to purposely indulge sin? The truth is, you can't do that. You just think you can. God does not allow it. You're deceived if you think you're protected by God's grace when you use it to purposely live in sin. You're not getting away with anything by God's grace. You just think you are. What you are doing is storing up wrath for yourself for the day of God's wrath.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Here is something Else that is True.... Non Believers can do these things and “ get away” with it in their Earthly Existence.....look at all of the UNIMAGINABLE PAIN that Hitler imposed on millions of humans ! Do you think that he paid for those Countless Sins in His Earthly Existence? He certainly is paying right now for his sins, but not while he was here.Non- Believers like Hitler are NOT God's Children — he calls them “ Bastards” .Bastards get away with sin oft times —- Believers NEVER DO! That is the difference....a Christian that willfully sins is a Stupid or Weak Christian That is going to take a stroll to “ God’s Wood-Shed” and get an “ attitude adjustment”, God’s Chastisement at work—- Done to you “ For Your Own Good”

These are just the talking points of your denominational beliefs. I don't believe that you have ever been chastised by God for purposely sinning. You just know it's the right thing to say in defense of living in sin.

Salvation is not an issue in this “Confirming you into the very image of His Son” Process.Remember? Your Salvation was a GIFT !....based SOLELY on God’s Mercy and GIVEN to you if you Simply Believed Paul’s Gospel Of 1Cor15:1-4.Yep, God declares that Salvation is a “ GIFT” and “ God's Gifts are irrevocable”.

If you really had this free salvation you wouldn't be purposely living in a lifestyle of sinning. That's what the Bible says. I won't post the reference again since you said you don't read them anyway.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Paul had to deal with a Born Again , Saved member of His Church that had Relations with his own Mother ( “ Perhaps” step-Mother ) You gonna tell me this was an “ accidental” sin? Horse Hockey! It was a Willful, Deliberate Sin.

Yep! It was willful, deliberate sin. And notice that the passage tells us he couldn't continue to do that and be saved when Jesus comes back. It was necessary that he stop in order to be saved when Jesus comes back. How did you miss that part?

His “ Chastisement” was getting kicked out of the Fellowship Of Believers at Corinth. He finally came to his senses, abandoned his sin , and was happily and compassionately restored and brought back into Fellowship. His Salvation was never in question ....

Nope. The passage says he had to be turned over for the destruction of his flesh "so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord." Can you really just turn your eyes away from those plain words and claim he's going to be saved when Jesus comes back whether he repents or not?

Had this man continued in his Sin and made the Foolish mistake of ignoring God’s Chastisement, God would probably have “ Rewarded” this man’s Stupidity by sending him to a very early grave and when he stands before God he will join that “ ashamed” group of Believers who got Saved, But Saved by the Skin Of their Teeth—- “ like a man barely escaping a house- fire”......

What a collection of Biblical distortions! I know this is just where the church is at these days and only a few are going to see the truth and be delivered from these teachings. Teachings that many think are going to save them while they live in their sin, but which in fact are going to condemn them to hell if they do not reject them before it's too late.