Mother of Jesus?

[ReChoired]

SDA soul sleep tripe

The Baptists and Anabaptists and Mennonites:

General Baptists

In his "Institutes of Ecclesiastical History" chancellor of the University of Gottingen, Johann L. von Mosheim records that the "General Baptists" where spread in large numbers over many of the provinces of England As one article of faith they held "that the soul, between death and the resurrection at the last day, has neither pleasure nor pain, but is in a state of insensibility." - [see Page 697] Mosheim's Institutes of Ecclesiastical History, Ancient and Modern​

Samuel Richardson (1633-1658)

Pastor, First Particular Baptist Church, of London wrote a discourse entitled :

"A Discourse on the Torments of Hell : The Foundations and Pillars therof discover'd, serch'd, shaken, and remov'd. With Infallible Proofs that there is not to be a punishment after this Life, for any to endure that shall never end" 1658 [see also Page 70 herem right hand top Column] - A Baptist Bibliography​

Warren Prestidge (M.A., B.D. Hons) is a Baptist pastor. His first degree was in English and he has taught at Auckland University and at secondary school. Since 1981, he has pastored churches in Auckland and also lectured for the Bible College of New Zealand and Tyndale College. For two years he directed a Bible College in the Philippines. He authored Life, Death and Destiny. -

"According to the Bible, the dead, whether Christian or non-Christian, good or evil, saved or lost, are neither suffering in “hell”, nor labouring in “purgatory”, nor rejoicing in “heaven”. Rather, they have entirely ceased to function. Without consciousness, they await the resurrection of the dead at the return of the Christ, that is, Jesus, in the glory of God. To use a common biblical metaphor, they “sleep the sleep of death” (Ps. 13:3)." - Sleep of death | Soul Sleep - Afterlife | Conditional Immortality​

Like Luther who believed the person sleeps in death until their resurrection at the return of Jesus:

Others included Camillo Renato (1540)[109] Mátyás Dévai Bíró (1500–1545)[110] Michael Servetus (1511–1553)[111] Laelio Sozzini (1562)[112] Fausto Sozzini (1563)[113] the Polish Brethren (1565 onwards)[114] Dirk Philips (1504–1568)[115] Gregory Paul of Brzezin (1568)[116] the Socinians (1570–1800)[117] John Frith (1573)[118] George Schomann (1574)[119] Simon Budny (1576)[113]​

Like Milton:

Those holding this view include: 1600s: Sussex Baptists[126] d. 1612: Edward Wightman[127] 1627: Samuel Gardner[128] 1628: Samuel Przypkowski[129] 1636: George Wither[130] 1637: Joachim Stegmann[131] 1624: Richard Overton[90] 1654: John Biddle (Unitarian)[132] 1655: Matthew Caffyn[133] 1658: Samuel Richardson[134] 1608–1674: John Milton[135][136] 1588–1670: Thomas Hobbes[117] 1605–1682: Thomas Browne[137] 1622–1705: Henry Layton[138] 1702: William Coward[138] 1632–1704: John Locke[139] 1643–1727: Isaac Newton[140] 1676–1748: Pietro Giannone[141] 1751: William Kenrick[142] 1755: Edmund Law[143] 1759: Samuel Bourn[144] 1723–1791: Richard Price[145] 1718–1797: Peter Peckard[146] 1733–1804: Joseph Priestley[147] Francis Blackburne (1765)[148] (1765).​

19th-20th century:

Others include: Millerites (from 1833),[154] Edward White (1846),[155] Christadelphians (from 1848),[156] Thomas Thayer (1855),[157] François Gaussen (d.1863),[158] Henry Constable (1873),[159] Louis Burnier (Waldensian, d.1878),[160] the Baptist Conditionalist Association (1878),[161] Cameron Mann (1888),[162] Emmanuel Pétavel-Olliff (1891), Miles Grant (1895)[163] George Gabriel Stokes (1897),[155]​

The Blackwell Encyclopedia of Modern Christian Thought (1995), says "There is no concept of an immortal soul in the Old Testament, nor does the New Testament ever call the human soul immortal.",[190] Harper's Bible Dictionary (1st ed. 1985), says that 'For a Hebrew, ‘soul’ indicated the unity of a human person; Hebrews were living bodies, they did not have bodies",[191] the New Bible Dictionary’ (3rd. ed. 1996), says "But to the Bible man is not a soul in a body but a body/soul unity",[192] the Encyclopedia of Judaism’ (2000), says "Scripture does not present even a rudimentarily developed theology of the soul",[193] the New Dictionary of Theology’ (2000), and "The notion of the soul as an independent force that animates human life but that can exist apart from the human body—either prior to conception and birth or subsequent to life and death—is the product only of later Judaism",[188] Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible (2000), says "Far from referring simply to one aspect of a person, “soul” refers to the whole person",[194] the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says "Possibly Jn. 6:33 also includes an allusion to the general life-giving function. This teaching rules out all ideas of an emanation of the soul.",[195] and "The soul and the body belong together, so that without either the one or the other there is no true man",[196] Eerdmans Bible Dictionary (1987), says "Indeed, the salvation of the “immortal soul” has sometimes been a commonplace in preaching, but it is fundamentally unbiblical.",[197] the Encyclopedia of Christianity (2003), says "The Hebrew Bible does not present the human soul (nepeš) or spirit (rûah) as an immortal substance, and for the most part it envisions the dead as ghosts in Sheol, the dark, sleepy underworld",[198] The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (2005), says "there is practically no specific teaching on the subject in the Bible beyond an underlying assumption of some form of afterlife (see immortality)",[199] and the Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible (rev. ed. 2009), says "It is this essential soul-body oneness that provides the uniqueness of the biblical concept of the resurrection of the body as distinguished from the Greek idea of the immortality of the soul".[200][201]
The mortalist disbelief in the existence of a naturally immortal soul,[1][5] is also affirmed as biblical teaching by various modern theologians,[202][203][204][205][206][207][208][209][210]- Christian mortalism

Anabaptist (generally and anciently) and later Mennonite (some):

Paulsen, for instance, says,

"The imagery of the soul's sleep expresses the nature of the interim state of the soul; the idea that the soul sleeps is substantiated by those who have been roused from the dead, inasmuch as the awakened ones can give no information about death, as would be the case if they had remained fully conscious." - The Mennonite Encyclopedia: A Comprehensive Reference Work on the Anabaptist-Mennonite Movement, Volume 4 - Link

"... [Anabaptists] taught the sleep of the soul in death and eternal life only in Christ received at the resurrection. This inevitably developed into tension with the established churches, which in turn resulted in prohibition of the Anabaptist assemblies." - Martin Luther's Views on Conditionalism and Soul Sleep​

Seventh-day Anabaptists:

"[Doctrine held generally] Soul Sleep (conditional immortality of the soul)." - Seventh Day Anabaptists: Doctrines of the Anabaptists influence continue in the heart of bible believing Christians​

"Nearly all of them [Anabaptists] taught both soul-sleep and the final annihilation of the wicked" - The Anabaptists and their Stepchildren - F.N. Lee | Reformed Theology at Semper Reformanda
​

John Calvin (who wrote against in his Psychopannychia (1534), which is where most Calvinist Baptist get the idea of immediate hell/heaven reward), Friedrich Spanheim & Karl Muller wrote about the Anabaptists, and documented their beliefs:

"Calvin, in his Psychopannychia (1544), counts the Anabaptists as one of the groups believing in the sleep of the soul ... Also Friedrich Spannheim asserts that the Mennonites held the belief in the sleep of the soul ... Karl Müller, the church historian of Tübingen, thought the doctrine was definitely held by the Anabaptists in the Romance countries"​

 

[ReChoired]

SDA soul sleep tripe

Modern Others:

"... annihilationists come from and are part of any number of different denominations. ...

... E. Earle Ellis was a professor of theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (Southern Baptist Convention) until he fell asleep. Similarly, Dale Moody taught at Southern Baptist Seminary (also SBC). I bet you never thought conservative Southern Baptists would hold this view! Claude Mariottini, Old Testament professor at Northern Baptist Seminary (American Baptist Convention), is also an annihilationist, 7 ..." - Don’t Be Afraid to Rethink Hell: Why Other Beliefs Needn’t Get In Your Way

"... I was a few weeks into the research when I read an article by a renown Southern Baptist New Testament scholar named E. Earle Ellis titled “The New Testament Teaching on Hell.” In it, he argued fairly and thoroughly that the New Testament advocates for an annihilation view of hell. This caught me off guard; I didn’t know he was going to argue for this. I read the article very casually, thinking it was going to be yet another defense of the traditional view. After all, Ellis is Southern Baptist. He’s evangelical. And he didn’t front his view at the beginning. He simply looked at all the relevant passages, exegeted them (with the exegetical methods I was taught in seminary), and then concluded that hell would not last forever; that is, its inhabitants would not experience everlasting conscious torment. And Ellis argued this from the text. ..." - Is Annihilation an Evangelical Option?

E. Earle Ellis ; New Testament Teaching on Hell - Rethinking Hell

Edward Fudge: Hell & Mr. Fudge - https://edwardfudge.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/excerptTFTC3.pdf

Re-enactment (Film), Hell & Mr. Fudge - Hell & Mr Fudge - Edward Fudge : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive or here - Hell & Mr. Fudge - Edward Fudge

Lecture - Edward Fudge - The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of Hell

William Tyndale (1484-1536),

English Bible translator and Martyr
In 1530 responding to Sir Thomas More's objection to his belief that "all souls lie and sleep till doomsday" he vigorously replyed.

"And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurection...And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good a case as the angels be ? And then what cause is there of the resurrection ?" - William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 reprint), bk.4, ch.4, pp.180,181 - An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue​

Tyndale went to the heart of the issue in pointing out the papacy's draft upon the teachings of "heathen philosophers" in seeking to establish its contention of innante immortality. Thus

"The true faith puteth forth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshy doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And becuase the fleshy-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it. If the soul be in heaven, tell me what cause is there for the resurrection?" - ibid., p.180​

In yet another section of the same treatise, dealing with the "invocation of saints," Tyndale uses the same reasoning, pointing out that the doctrine of departed saints being in heaven had not yet been introduced in Christ's day:

"And when he [More] proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, 'If God be their God, they be in heaven, for he is not the God of the dead;' there he stealeth away Christ's argument wherewith he proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints would rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect." - ibid., p.118​

Tyndale presses his contention still further by showing the conflict of papal teaching with St. Paul, as he says is slightly sarcastic vein :

" 'Nay Paul, thou art unlearned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again.' And I marvel that Paul had not conforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what should be of the resurrection?" - ibid. p.118​

John Frith (1503-33),
associate of Tyndale and fellow martyr writes

"Notwithstanding, let me grant it him that some are already in hell and some in heaven, which thing he shall never be able to prove by the Scriptures, yea, and which plainly destroy the resurrection, and taketh away the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul do prove that we shall rise;..and as touching this point where they rest, I dare be bold to say that they are in the hand of God." - An Answer to John Fisher, Bishop of Rochester​

 

[ReChoired]

SDA soul sleep tripe

Martin Luther (1493-1546)
German reformer and Bible Translator.

Regarding Luther's position Archdeacon Francis Blackburne of Cleveland; rector of Richmond states in his "Short Historical View of the Controversy Concerning an Intermediate State" of 1765 :

"Luther espoused the doctrine of the sleep of the soul, upon a Scripture foundation, and then made use of it as a confutation of purgatory and saint worship, and continued in that belief to the last moment in his life." page 14.​

Martin Luther declared that it was the Pope, not the bible, who taught that "the soul is immortal" Martin Luther, Defence, proposition 27

"Luther held that the soul died with the body, and that God would hereafter raise both the one and the other." Catholic Cardinal Du Perron, Historical View, p344​

Here are some sample Luther citations. The first one is from a 1573 translation.

"Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awaked, they shall seeme to haue slept scarce one minute." - An Exposition of Salomon's Booke, called Ecclesiastes or the Preacher, 1573, folio 151v.

"But we Christians, who have been redeemed from all this through the precious blood of God's Son, should train and accustom ourselves in faith to despise death and regard it as a deep, strong sweet sleep; to consider the coffin as nothing other than our Lord Jesus' bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing other than a soft couch of ease or rest. As verily, before God, it truely is just this; for he testifies, John 11:11: Lazarus, our friend sleeps; Matthew 9:24: The maiden is not dead, she sleeps. Thus too, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, removes from sight all hateful aspects of death as related to our mortal body and brings forward nothing but charming and joyful aspects of the promised life. He says there [vv.42ff]: It is sown in corruption and will rise in incorruption; it is sown in dishonour (that is, a hateful, shameful form) and will rise in glory; it is sown in weakness and will rise in strength; it is sown in natural body and will rise a spiritual body."- Christian Song Latin and German, for Use at Funerals," 1542, Works of Luther (1932), vol. 6, pp.287,288​

"Thus after death the soul goes to its bedchamber and to its peace, and while it is sleeping it does not realise its sleep, and God preserves indeed the awakening soul. God is able to awake Elijah, Moses, and others, and so control them, so that they will live. But how can that be ? That we do not know; we satisfy ourselves with the example of bodily sleep, and with what God says: it is a sleep, as rest, and a peace. He who sleeps naturally knows nothing of that which happens in his neighbor's house; and nevertheless he still is living, even though, contrary to the nature of life, he is unconscious in his sleep. Exactly the same will happen also in that life, but in another and a better way." -"Auslegung des ersten Buches Mose," in Schriften, vol.1, cols. 1759, 1760​

"...Protestants denied the Catholic purgatory. Luther taught mortality of the soul, comparing the sleep of a tired man after a day's work whose soul "sleeps not but is awake" ("non sic dormit, sed vigilat") and can "experience visions and the discourses of the angels and of God", with the sleep of the dead which experience nothing but still "live to God" ("coram Deo vivit").[4][5][6][7] ..."

"..."so the soul after death enters its chamber and peace, and sleeping does not feel its sleep" (Commentary on Genesis – Enarrationes in Genesin, 1535–1545).[36]

... However, the best known advocate of soul sleep was Martin Luther (1483–1546).[95] In writing on Ecclesiastes, Luther says, “Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awoken, they shall seeme to have slept scarce one minute.[96]” - Intermediate state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

As soon as thy eyes have closed shalt thou be woken, a thousand years shall be as if thou hadst slept but a little half hour. Just as at night we hear the clock strike and know not how long we have slept, so too, and how much more, are in death a thousand years soon past. Before a man should turn round, he is already a fair angel.[97]" - Christian mortalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

John Milton (1608-1674),
"Greatest of the Sacred Poets"; Latin secretary to Cromwell.

"Inasmuch then as the whole man is uniformly said to consist of body, and soul (whatever may be the distinct provinces assigned to these divisions), I will show, that in death, first, the whole man, and secondly, each component part, suffers privation of life...The grave is the common guardian of all till the day of judgment.", "Treatise of Christian Doctrine" Vol.1, ch. 13, [see Page 271 here] - The Prose Works of John Milton ...​

Dr A.A. Phelps, pastor Congregational Church, Rochester, New York, and editor of "The Bible Banner", in discussing "Is Man By Nature Immortal?" (pp.639-650), presents twelve counts against the doctrine of innate immortality:

1. It has a bad history; it was introduced by the serpent in Eden, and springs from a heathen philosophy; it is not found in Jewish belief; is a compromise with Platonism; adopted and authenticated by the Church of Rome.
2. It is at variance with the scriptural account of man's creation.
3. It clashes with the Bible statement of man's fall.
4. It is opposed to the scriptural doctrine of death.
5. It is equally opposed to the physiological facts.
6. Immortality is nowhere ascribed to man in his present state of existance.
7. Immortality is a blessing to be sought, and not a birthright legacy.
8. Inherent immortality is opposed to the scriptural doom of the wicked.
9. It supersedes the necessity of the resurrection.
10. It reduces the judgment scene to a solemn farce.
11. It subverts the bible doctrine of Christ's second coming.
12. It is a prolific source of error -Mohammedanism, Shakerism, Swedenborgianism, Spiritualism, Purgatory, Mariolatry, Universalism, Eternal-Tormentism.” - Heresy

 

[BreadOfLife]

Not at all. I am simply refusing the apostate councils additional declaration in regards Mary. Mary is not the "mother of God". It is impossible to be so. I said nothing about Jesus not being deity/divine. The Son of God is eternally deity by very nature. Yet that nature (deity) never had a mother, only a Father. The humanity of Jesus, however, only had a human mother, and not a human father.

So, you are resurrecting the old heresy of elevating Mary, while I am not elevating Nestorian anything. I uplift the scripture of Luke 1:43, while you must re-write it to suit your theological position based in the overstepping of some apostate council.

The phrase 'hypostatic union' is simply more claptrap jargon. Here is something plain:

"... Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person--the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. Christ, the sinless One, will save every son and daughter of Adam who accepts the salvation proffered them, consenting to become the children of God. The Saviour has purchased the fallen race with His own blood. {5BC 1113.2}

This is a great mystery, a mystery that will not be fully, completely understood in all its greatness until the translation of the redeemed shall take place. Then the power and greatness and efficacy of the gift of God to man will be understood. But the enemy is determined that this gift shall be so mystified that it will become as nothingness (Letter 280, 1904). ..."​

And as I stated before - you're simply resurrecting a very old heresy that was defeated at Ephesus in 431.

Unlike YOU - I actually believe in the promises of Christ when He assured His apostles that the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against His Church (Matt. 16:18).

I also believe with ALL my heart in His guarantee that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church to ALL TRUTH by taking from what is Christ's and declaring it to His Church (John 16:12-15).

Finally - I fully accept the fact that Jesus compared His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).

To YOU, His Church is "clap trap".
To GOD - it is Christ in his FULLNESS (Eph. 1:22-23) . . .

 

[ReChoired]

SDA soul sleep tripe

Here, let's keep this simple. 1 Simple question.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
​

If, as Roman Catholicism teaches, that this "woman" of Revelation 12, is Mary in Heaven, then is the Dragon (Satan) also in Heaven right now?

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
​

You might desire to study Revelation 12 - https://archive.org/download/revela...sy/Revelation 12 – The Great Controversy.pptx

 

[ReChoired]

And as I stated before - you're simply resurrecting a very old heresy that was defeated at Ephesus in 431.

Unlike YOU - I actually believe in the promises of Christ when He assured His apostles that the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against His Church (Matt. 16:18).

I also believe with ALL my heart in His guarantee that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church to ALL TRUTH by taking from what is Christ's and declaring it to His Church (John 16:12-15).

Finally - I fully accept the fact that Jesus compared His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).

To YOU, His Church is "clap trap".
To GOD - it is Christ in his FULLNESS (Eph. 1:22-23) . . .

Why then does 'the pope' speak from the mouth of the Serpent? (Paul VI Nervi Hall)

 

[BreadOfLife]

Why then does 'the pope' speak from the mouth of the Serpent? (Paul VI Nervi Hall)

Soooooo, you couldn't actually address ANY of the points I made?

That's what I thought . . .

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

In Luke 16, Jesus gives quite an extensive account of the CONSCIOUS, AFTER-DEATH EXPERIENCES of the beggar Lazarus, the rich man, and Father Abraham - they are awake; they can speak and do things. They went to these (different) after-life experiences immediately after death.

It does not matter if Jesus makes up beggar Lazarus and rich man or if they were actual people - I consider them just like "a certain man from Jerusalem going down to Jericho."

The High Priest and Apostle of our faith - Jesus - would not have given an inaccurate portrayal of the state of souls in Abraham's Bosom (OT Paradise) or Torments. Rich man is talking to Abraham, wants Lazarus to do things, Abraham talks back to rich man.

Jesus is the Head Guy. Jesus is the Top Dog. He portrays people as conscious and quite aware of their surroundings after death. The rich man says "I am tormented in this flame" and wants Abraham to let Lazarus come touch his tongue with moisture. This is an accurate portrayal of the after-life before Jesus ascended to Heaven - bringing with Him the Old Testament righteous - which has been described as "the harrowing of hell".

In the Old Testament, King Saul has the Witch of Endor call up the spirit of Samuel - who talks to King Saul. It was WRONG, but it was REAL - Samuel talked to Saul after his death. I have seen soul-sleepers try OUTLANDISH things to try to get out of this - that it was a Demon and not actually Samuel who was called up. The Bible says it was the spirit of Samuel that was called up.

I am aware of certain verses in the Psalms which might give the indication that "in death no one can praise thee" - it is a situation where one must be quided by the preponderance of the evidence - and "Look who's talking" in Luke 16 - this is JESUS telling us of Lazarus the Beggar, the rich man and Father Abraham. They are conscious. They speak. The rich man can definitely feel pain.

I am well aware that not only SDA's but others hold to the inaccuracies of "soul sleep". It's wrong, that is flat-out calling Jesus a liar in Luke 16.

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

Mary is Theotokos.

The "perpetual virginity of Mary" is held by Catholics as well as Orthodox. My son is Orthodox. I am Methodist. There is nothing that holds me to "perpetual virginity" - neither do I dismiss it.

We have no record in the Bible of Jesus saying anything of perpetual virginity, like we do indeed have Him teaching that the dead are conscious in Luke 16.

Soul sleep is CLEARLY in error - per the whole parable in Luke 16, per Paul's words contrasting being alive on earth or "present with the Lord" - and the detailed Old Testament account of the raising of Samuel.

Soul Sleep = tripas - tripe.

 

[ReChoired]

In Luke 16 ...

I am well aware that not only SDA's but others hold to the inaccuracies of "soul sleep". It's wrong, that is flat-out calling Jesus a liar in Luke 16.

Luke 16 = parable (Jesus isn't lying, strawmanning again). I asked if you wanted to see that from scripture, but so far, you are refusing to take that offer.

Soul sleep = Veritas = Truth

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

So you think it is ok for Jesus to tell a parable that illustrates conscious people in the afterlife - if there is no consciousness in afterlife ? That because it might be a parable that it is ok to present false reality?

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

As far as the OP - Mary is Theotokos - but the scripture that "Joseph and Mary had no relations until after Jesus was born" makes me lean toward believing that they did AFTER Jesus was born.

"Nobody got into the guacamole dip until DancesWithGnostics got to the party"

A logical inference is that people started eating guacamole dip after DancesWithGnostics got to the party.

I try to look at what scripture says, and not go beyond it.

But I am not dogmatic about it - I am aware it is important to Catholic and Orthodox brothers and sisters - about a perpetual virginity; I just see nothing about it in the Bible.

 

[Ziggy]

There are 2 women. 2 Mothers. 2 Children. 2 divine interventions. 2 Proclamations. 2 Miracles.

Elisabeth and Mary.
Jerusalem and Judah

Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
Zec 2:12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
Zec 2:13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.

Zec 8:13 And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong.
Zec 8:14 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; As I thought to punish you, when your fathers provoked me to wrath, saith the LORD of hosts, and I repented not:
Zec 8:15 So again have I thought in these days to do well unto Jerusalem and to the house of Judah: fear ye not.
Zec 8:16 These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates:
Zec 8:17 And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the LORD.

Fear Not...

Luk 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

This is difficult but I will do my best.
Jesus is not only Mary's Son, he is also her Husband and her Father.
God is Mary's Father, God knew Mary, and God is her Son.

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Then he said to the woman,
“I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy,
and in pain you will give birth.
And you will desire to control your husband,
but he will rule over you

Jhn 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
Jhn 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
Jhn 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

verse 3, mother/son
verse 4, husband/wife
verse 5 daughter/father

Mary brought forth Judah
Elisabeth brought forth Jerusalem

Judah resides in Jerusalem
The lamb is the light which is the glory of God in the new city Jerusalem.

Who is John?

Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
Luk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
Luk 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
Luk 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
Luk 1:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
Luk 1:72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
Luk 1:73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
Luk 1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
Luk 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Lam 1:7 Jerusalem remembered in the days of her affliction and of her miseries all her pleasant things that she had in the days of old, when her people fell into the hand of the enemy, and none did help her: the adversaries saw her, and did mock at her sabbaths.

It is the new city Jerusalem that comes down from heaven as a bride adorned for her husband.

This is John..
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Elisabeth is the New Jerusalem
Mary is ..
Gen 49:8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.

Jhn 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

Hail Mary full of Grace the Lord is with thee. (Husband/wife) they two shall be one flesh
Blessed art thou among women (Father/daughter)
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. (Son/mother)

I found John ...

Thank You!
HUGS

 

[ReChoired]

Soooooo, you couldn't actually address ANY of the points I made?

That's what I thought . . .

I answered with a question.

...in the name of Jesus, see and hear... of such love...

Little Boy/Girl: *internal dialgoue* Where are my beads, I cannot seem to find where I lay them... "Beads... O Beads?!... beads, where are you?" I can't find my... Oh! Here they are! In my pocket... "Praise St. XXXXX..." now where did I put my blue pieta book...

God: *with incalculable, unchanging, eternal love* I would like to spend time with you...

Little Boy/Girl: *frustrated* I am looking for my blue pieta book, please do not bother me, this is important, I must have that book so I can speak to God...

God: What about that Bible over there, under all of the misslettes, have you opened it and seen my words for you today?

Little Boy/Girl: *confused* Today is Thursday, I am not in church, why would I... OH! My blue pieta book, I found it, "Thanks be to St. XXXXX..." now where are all my candles and incenses... I will need those to remember St. XXXXX and St. XXXXX and this deceased and this deceased...

God: Have you not read what Peter hath said by the Holy Spirit and the Prophets, that even King David is not yet ascended into Heaven, is dead and buried and his tomb is still there, or the word of my servant Luke which recorded that Stephen fell asleep, or the word of my servant Paul, that the dead do not rise until the last day, and that they will all sleep until I come for them in that day at the last tump, for I am now preparing a place?

Little Boy/Girl: *irked* Silly, did you not know that God is the God of the living and not the dead... *turns around*, "Ha!, there they are, my candles..." "O, bless you Ma..."

God: Child, I truly Am the God of the living, for if you would but open the pages of My Book where are recorded my words, and see, I said, "For in the resurrection..." and "...as touching the resurrection..."

Little Boy/Girl: *angry* * blustered* *out loud* "Moses, Elijah and Enoch and some others whom you took with you when you where raised are in Heaven!!!" *accidently drops the glass candleholder* *shatters on the floor* NOW SEE WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!!! *exhales* *inhales* *exhales heavily* Now I have to clean this up before I can even begin to talk to God... *woe is me* *searches for a broom* searching, searching, searching, all it seems that I am doing today is searching... searching for this, for that, and I cannot even have time to search for God...

God: Yes, true, they whom you mention, are indeed with me in Heaven, but for Moses and the firstfruits, whom all had fallen on sleep in death, I raised them unto myself in a special resurrection and took them with me at those times, and as for Enoch He daily walked with Me and so I took him personally, and for Elijah I sent a mighty Angel to gather Him and so they never saw death, nor fell on sleep. Child, have ye not read what I said unto Adam, and what ye hear at least once a year in your 'Ash Wednesday', "Remember man that thou art dust and unto dust thou shalt return.", that I gave my breath, and breathed into his nostrils that he would become a living soul, and when returned unto dust, that breath which I gave unto him, is returned unto Me, for it is mine, as I am the only that hath Life within?

Little Boy/Girl: *fuming* *outraged* *takes broom and swings at the air in front of them* *knocks over the bronze statue of Mary* *GASPS*!!!!! *drops broom and reaches down to the image and gently lifts it back up and puts it back onto the pedestal* *strokes it* "You are ok Mary, I did not mean it." *Kisses her cold metal cheek* "To make reparations for damaging you I will confess to my preist and ask for severe penance today by phone!, let me go call him right now..." *dials* "Father, you will not believe what I did today... father, this and this... father, o father this Devil kept bothering me today and telling me things, will you do your 'spiritual excerises' and make it go away?... O thank you, father..." *hangs up, glad that is done* *whew* what a load off of my heart... now, time to pray...

God: Why do you call that person 'father' on earth, did you not know of your Father who actually is in Heaven who always seeth you? I AM even here to help you child, even as I Jesus girded myself with a towel and washed the disciples feet, even as I came down from above to serve, why did you not ask me? Did you not know that I minister there for you before the Father in the Heavenly Sanctuary, the True Tabernacle which I pitched and not man, even as I AM your Great High Priest, that I bore all the sin, sickness and suffering of all of humanity and who AM touched with the feeling of your infirmities?

Little Boy/Girl: *exasperated* Who are you supposed to be? I do not know your voice, it is unfamiliar... anyways I got what I need right here, my specially blessed Rosary beads from Fatima, my blue pieta book from Rome signed by the Cardinal, and my candles, all of which are made with truly miraculous ingredients, from several shrines around the globe where Mary has appeared...

God: My sheep know my voice, and they know me... Did you want to come to know me right now, I will spend the rest of the day with you...

Little Boy/Girl: *becoming worn out, tired and shakes head* I cannot right now, I am busy trying to pray to God, you sound interesting, but how do I know you are not another Devil sent from Satan to distract me from praying, please come back another time, I am busy repeating these words, "Our Father who art in Heaven..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Glory Be..." "Our Father..." "Hail Mary..." Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Glory Be..." "Our Father..." ...

God: Will you not speak unto me?...

Little Boy/Girl: *agitated, tries to ignore, and speaks a little louder*... "...Glory Be..." one decade done, four more to complete one whole, and then around again two more times... "Our Father..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Glory Be..."

God: Do you not want to speak with me as unto a friend? Do you speak unto your friends that way? Counting, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7... and starting over when they desire to share and fellowship with you?

Little Boy/Girl: *sighs, tries to mentally zone out everything into blackness*... "...who art in heaven..." Major Bead "...Mary...", 1 Bead "...Mary...", 2 Bead "...Mary...", 3 Bead "...Mary...", 4 Bead "...Mary...", 5 Bead "...Mary...", 6 Bead "...Mary...", 7 Bead "...Mary...", 8 Bead "...Mary...", 9 Bead "...Mary...", 10 Bead, "Glory Be..."

God: Not to bother you too much, but may I ask you another question?

Little Boy/Girl: *annoyed, tries breath techniques acquired of the monks of asia*... "...in heaven..." "...Mary..." "...Mary..." "...Mary..." "...Be..."

God: Do you want me to leave you alone?

Little Boy/Girl: *fed up, disregards* 3 Bead, ... 4 Bead, ... 5 Bead, ... 6 Bead, ...

God: Ok, child, I will leave you alone today, though it break my heart and tears run down my cheeks, that my child will not hear or understand my voice. O what sadness, my poor poor child, rocks back and forth, back and forth, clinging to their beads, rubbing them, counting them 1, 2, 3... I can heal you child, if you will but let me, for I cannot, in my love, force it upon you... I love you, I Jesus, died for you, for that is how much I love you...

Little Boy/Girl: *oblivious* ... 7 Bead, ... 8 Bead, ... 9 Bead, ... almost done praying today, wow how refreshing to be rid of that pesky spirit asking all those nagging questions, and I can now spend time with God in peace and quiet, for today I will begin to memorize my new pieta book, they just updated it, that way I will always have that with me...

God: My Word is there on the table, and I love you, and I change not...

Hebrews 13:8 KJB - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[ReChoired]

So you think it is ok for Jesus to tell a parable that illustrates conscious people in the afterlife - if there is no consciousness in afterlife ? That because it might be a parable that it is ok to present false reality?

You will reject the Methodist position in favour of Rome's position?

United Methodist theologian and historian Ted Campbell notes, “we reject the idea of purgatory but beyond that maintain silence on what lies between death and the last judgment.” (Methodist Doctrine: The Essentials)​

What about your so called Orthodoxy (which has many doctrines which conflict), but one such doctrine as held by some within is:

"... Lazar Puhalo in particular for his theory of the insensibility of the soul “in some state of sleep” ..."​

That the dead are figuratively in a state of sleep, awaiting the resurrection, "was the prevalent opinion until as late as the 5th century" (D.P. Walker, The Decline of Hell: Seventeenth-Century Discussions of Eternal Torment, 1964, p. 35). - Jesus Christ and Biblical Writers Compare Death to Sleep

Even Martin Luther, leader of the Protestant Reformation, wrote at one point: "It is probable, in my opinion, that, with very few exceptions indeed, the dead sleep in utter insensibility till the day of judgment . . . On what authority can it be said that the souls of the dead may not sleep . . . in the same way that the living pass in profound slumber the interval between their downlying at night and their uprising in the morning?" (Letter to Nicholas Amsdorf, Jan. 13, 1522, quoted in Jules Michelet, The Life of Luther, translated by William Hazlitt, 1862, p. 133).

Charles Henry Welch (Dispensationalist)

“... Our study of the Word drove us to the conclusion that the soul of man is not inherently immortal, that immortality is a gift in grace conferred at the resurrection; that the dead are asleep, that they awake at the resurrection, and that there is no conscious intermediate state.” (Welch, 107-108) ...” - CHARLES H. WELCH AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY​

E. W. Bullinger (Anglican, Ultradispensationalist):

Rich Man and Lazarus
The Rich Man and Lazarus - BibleUnderstanding Ministry

I will ask one last time. The ball is in your court. Do you want to study Luke 16 together in it's context, or do you desire to simply make assertions?

 

[theefaith]

[4]

OT - The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)​

Indeed the Ark (the symbol of the presence of God) was a blessing to the house of Obededom for “three months” (2 Samuel 6:11; 1 Chronicles 13:14). The Ark represents Christ Jesus, for in His Heart is the living Law of His Father (Psalms 40:8; John 6:57; Matthew 12:34; Luke 6:45), for His is the pure golden character, all glorious without and within, perfectly reflecting the character of the Father, as the “express image” (Hebrews 1:3). He, the presence of God, is the one whom the Cherub (as Gabriel) cover (Luke 22:43) and are with Him at the tomb (Mark 16:5; Luke 24:4; John 20:12) at His ascension (Acts 1:10,24), and with Him meeting Abraham (Genesis 17-19) and Daniel (7-12) and John (Revelation 1-22).

Let us take notice that though Mary is “blessed” (Luke 1:42,45,48), the text does not say in Luke 1:56 that Mary herself was the blessing. The text simply says:

Luke 1:56 KJB - And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.

Luke 1:56 Douay Rheims - And Mary abode with her about three months. And she returned to her own house.​

Jesus is the blessing (to Mary, and all else), and the cause for all joy. He is salvation. His name praise. For He is the Everlasting Gospel, the good news (Word; John 1:1-3,11) sent from the heart/bosom of the Father.

Also the texts in 2 Samuel 6:11; 1 Chronicles 13:14 say “three months”, whereas the text in Luke 1:56, says “about three months” (not exactly three months, either under or over).

Interestingly there is a “three months” period mentioned with Moses (a type of Christ), after he was born:

Acts 7:20 KJB - In which time Moses was born, and was exceeding fair, and nourished up in his father's house three months:

Hebrews 11:23 KJB - By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.​

Also consider the "three months" (Acts 19:8, 28:11) in the life of Paul.

Mary in this instance is simply the humble “new cart” (virgin) drawn by oxen (a creature of burden) in which resides the Ark, Jesus Christ, she being just an earthy tabernacle, or dwelling place as the “house of Obededom” was the residing place for the Ark (made after the Heavenly “pattern”) itself for those “three months”, or “about three months”.

Satan always loves to shift the focus from God to man, that he himself may receive worship through them, and to usurp the glory that belongs to JEHOVAH Elohiym alone. Mary is neither the center nor focus, nor the Ark, but Christ Jesus is all those things. Mary. As like we all, is/are nothing without Christ Jesus.

Ark of the new covenant!
God dwelt in Mary’s womb for 9 months, remember the ark was incorruptible wood covered with pure gold signifying Mary’s immaculate purity!
read exodus or any place in the Old Testament where something came into contact with God or was consecrated to the service of God it had to be pure and Holy!
In the ark was the word of God!
In Mary the new ark is the living Word!
In the ark was the mana!
In Mary was the bread come down from heaven!
Bethlehem means house to of bread!

Sinless yes! Gen 3:15 I will put enmity between thee and the woman, none of satan’s works are found in her!

 

[BreadOfLife]

I answered with a question.

...in the name of Jesus, see and hear... of such love...

Little Boy/Girl: *internal dialgoue* Where are my beads, I cannot seem to find where I lay them... "Beads... O Beads?!... beads, where are you?" I can't find my... Oh! Here they are! In my pocket... "Praise St. XXXXX..." now where did I put my blue pieta book...

God: *with incalculable, unchanging, eternal love* I would like to spend time with you...

Little Boy/Girl: *frustrated* I am looking for my blue pieta book, please do not bother me, this is important, I must have that book so I can speak to God...

God: What about that Bible over there, under all of the misslettes, have you opened it and seen my words for you today?

Little Boy/Girl: *confused* Today is Thursday, I am not in church, why would I... OH! My blue pieta book, I found it, "Thanks be to St. XXXXX..." now where are all my candles and incenses... I will need those to remember St. XXXXX and St. XXXXX and this deceased and this deceased...

God: Have you not read what Peter hath said by the Holy Spirit and the Prophets, that even King David is not yet ascended into Heaven, is dead and buried and his tomb is still there, or the word of my servant Luke which recorded that Stephen fell asleep, or the word of my servant Paul, that the dead do not rise until the last day, and that they will all sleep until I come for them in that day at the last tump, for I am now preparing a place?

Little Boy/Girl: *irked* Silly, did you not know that God is the God of the living and not the dead... *turns around*, "Ha!, there they are, my candles..." "O, bless you Ma..."

God: Child, I truly Am the God of the living, for if you would but open the pages of My Book where are recorded my words, and see, I said, "For in the resurrection..." and "...as touching the resurrection..."

Little Boy/Girl: *angry* * blustered* *out loud* "Moses, Elijah and Enoch and some others whom you took with you when you where raised are in Heaven!!!" *accidently drops the glass candleholder* *shatters on the floor* NOW SEE WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!!! *exhales* *inhales* *exhales heavily* Now I have to clean this up before I can even begin to talk to God... *woe is me* *searches for a broom* searching, searching, searching, all it seems that I am doing today is searching... searching for this, for that, and I cannot even have time to search for God...

God: Yes, true, they whom you mention, are indeed with me in Heaven, but for Moses and the firstfruits, whom all had fallen on sleep in death, I raised them unto myself in a special resurrection and took them with me at those times, and as for Enoch He daily walked with Me and so I took him personally, and for Elijah I sent a mighty Angel to gather Him and so they never saw death, nor fell on sleep. Child, have ye not read what I said unto Adam, and what ye hear at least once a year in your 'Ash Wednesday', "Remember man that thou art dust and unto dust thou shalt return.", that I gave my breath, and breathed into his nostrils that he would become a living soul, and when returned unto dust, that breath which I gave unto him, is returned unto Me, for it is mine, as I am the only that hath Life within?

Little Boy/Girl: *fuming* *outraged* *takes broom and swings at the air in front of them* *knocks over the bronze statue of Mary* *GASPS*!!!!! *drops broom and reaches down to the image and gently lifts it back up and puts it back onto the pedestal* *strokes it* "You are ok Mary, I did not mean it." *Kisses her cold metal cheek* "To make reparations for damaging you I will confess to my preist and ask for severe penance today by phone!, let me go call him right now..." *dials* "Father, you will not believe what I did today... father, this and this... father, o father this Devil kept bothering me today and telling me things, will you do your 'spiritual excerises' and make it go away?... O thank you, father..." *hangs up, glad that is done* *whew* what a load off of my heart... now, time to pray...

God: Why do you call that person 'father' on earth, did you not know of your Father who actually is in Heaven who always seeth you? I AM even here to help you child, even as I Jesus girded myself with a towel and washed the disciples feet, even as I came down from above to serve, why did you not ask me? Did you not know that I minister there for you before the Father in the Heavenly Sanctuary, the True Tabernacle which I pitched and not man, even as I AM your Great High Priest, that I bore all the sin, sickness and suffering of all of humanity and who AM touched with the feeling of your infirmities?

Little Boy/Girl: *exasperated* Who are you supposed to be? I do not know your voice, it is unfamiliar... anyways I got what I need right here, my specially blessed Rosary beads from Fatima, my blue pieta book from Rome signed by the Cardinal, and my candles, all of which are made with truly miraculous ingredients, from several shrines around the globe where Mary has appeared...

God: My sheep know my voice, and they know me... Did you want to come to know me right now, I will spend the rest of the day with you...

Little Boy/Girl: *becoming worn out, tired and shakes head* I cannot right now, I am busy trying to pray to God, you sound interesting, but how do I know you are not another Devil sent from Satan to distract me from praying, please come back another time, I am busy repeating these words, "Our Father who art in Heaven..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Glory Be..." "Our Father..." "Hail Mary..." Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Glory Be..." "Our Father..." ...

God: Will you not speak unto me?...

Little Boy/Girl: *agitated, tries to ignore, and speaks a little louder*... "...Glory Be..." one decade done, four more to complete one whole, and then around again two more times... "Our Father..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Hail Mary..." "Glory Be..."

God: Do you not want to speak with me as unto a friend? Do you speak unto your friends that way? Counting, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7... and starting over when they desire to share and fellowship with you?

Little Boy/Girl: *sighs, tries to mentally zone out everything into blackness*... "...who art in heaven..." Major Bead "...Mary...", 1 Bead "...Mary...", 2 Bead "...Mary...", 3 Bead "...Mary...", 4 Bead "...Mary...", 5 Bead "...Mary...", 6 Bead "...Mary...", 7 Bead "...Mary...", 8 Bead "...Mary...", 9 Bead "...Mary...", 10 Bead, "Glory Be..."

God: Not to bother you too much, but may I ask you another question?

Little Boy/Girl: *annoyed, tries breath techniques acquired of the monks of asia*... "...in heaven..." "...Mary..." "...Mary..." "...Mary..." "...Be..."

God: Do you want me to leave you alone?

Little Boy/Girl: *fed up, disregards* 3 Bead, ... 4 Bead, ... 5 Bead, ... 6 Bead, ...

God: Ok, child, I will leave you alone today, though it break my heart and tears run down my cheeks, that my child will not hear or understand my voice. O what sadness, my poor poor child, rocks back and forth, back and forth, clinging to their beads, rubbing them, counting them 1, 2, 3... I can heal you child, if you will but let me, for I cannot, in my love, force it upon you... I love you, I Jesus, died for you, for that is how much I love you...

Little Boy/Girl: *oblivious* ... 7 Bead, ... 8 Bead, ... 9 Bead, ... almost done praying today, wow how refreshing to be rid of that pesky spirit asking all those nagging questions, and I can now spend time with God in peace and quiet, for today I will begin to memorize my new pieta book, they just updated it, that way I will always have that with me...

God: My Word is there on the table, and I love you, and I change not...

Hebrews 13:8 KJB - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

This is the kind of asinine exchange we’ve had so far . . .

@ReChoired:
Duhhhh, Jesus is TWO people – God and man!

BreadOfLife:
Ummmm, NO – that’s an old heresy. Jesus is the 2nd Person of the Trinity who unites to Himself two INDIVISIBLE natures – FULLY human and FULLY God. That’s what we Christians refer to as the “Hypostatic Union”.

@ReChoired:
Duhhhh, that’s “clap trap”! Mary only gave birth to a human nature!

BreadOfLife:
NO – Mary gave birth to a PERSON, who has 2 indivisible natures – divine and human., as we see in Scripture and defined at the Council of Ephesus in 431.

@ReChoired:
Duhhhh, Church Councils are apostate!

BreadOfLife:
Ummmmmm, NO – in order for that to be true – Jesus would have to be a liar.
- Jesus assured His Apostles that the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against His Church (Matt. 16:18).
- He guaranteed that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church to ALL TRUTH (John 16:12-15).
- He compared His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).

@ReChoired:
Duhhhh, the Pope gives speeches in a funny looking building!

Do you have ANYTHING that’s a little more educated?

 

[theefaith]

The Baptists and Anabaptists and Mennonites:

General Baptists

In his "Institutes of Ecclesiastical History" chancellor of the University of Gottingen, Johann L. von Mosheim records that the "General Baptists" where spread in large numbers over many of the provinces of England As one article of faith they held "that the soul, between death and the resurrection at the last day, has neither pleasure nor pain, but is in a state of insensibility." - [see Page 697] Mosheim's Institutes of Ecclesiastical History, Ancient and Modern​

Samuel Richardson (1633-1658)

Pastor, First Particular Baptist Church, of London wrote a discourse entitled :

"A Discourse on the Torments of Hell : The Foundations and Pillars therof discover'd, serch'd, shaken, and remov'd. With Infallible Proofs that there is not to be a punishment after this Life, for any to endure that shall never end" 1658 [see also Page 70 herem right hand top Column] - A Baptist Bibliography​

Warren Prestidge (M.A., B.D. Hons) is a Baptist pastor. His first degree was in English and he has taught at Auckland University and at secondary school. Since 1981, he has pastored churches in Auckland and also lectured for the Bible College of New Zealand and Tyndale College. For two years he directed a Bible College in the Philippines. He authored Life, Death and Destiny. -

"According to the Bible, the dead, whether Christian or non-Christian, good or evil, saved or lost, are neither suffering in “hell”, nor labouring in “purgatory”, nor rejoicing in “heaven”. Rather, they have entirely ceased to function. Without consciousness, they await the resurrection of the dead at the return of the Christ, that is, Jesus, in the glory of God. To use a common biblical metaphor, they “sleep the sleep of death” (Ps. 13:3)." - Sleep of death | Soul Sleep - Afterlife | Conditional Immortality​

Like Luther who believed the person sleeps in death until their resurrection at the return of Jesus:

Others included Camillo Renato (1540)[109] Mátyás Dévai Bíró (1500–1545)[110] Michael Servetus (1511–1553)[111] Laelio Sozzini (1562)[112] Fausto Sozzini (1563)[113] the Polish Brethren (1565 onwards)[114] Dirk Philips (1504–1568)[115] Gregory Paul of Brzezin (1568)[116] the Socinians (1570–1800)[117] John Frith (1573)[118] George Schomann (1574)[119] Simon Budny (1576)[113]​

Like Milton:

Those holding this view include: 1600s: Sussex Baptists[126] d. 1612: Edward Wightman[127] 1627: Samuel Gardner[128] 1628: Samuel Przypkowski[129] 1636: George Wither[130] 1637: Joachim Stegmann[131] 1624: Richard Overton[90] 1654: John Biddle (Unitarian)[132] 1655: Matthew Caffyn[133] 1658: Samuel Richardson[134] 1608–1674: John Milton[135][136] 1588–1670: Thomas Hobbes[117] 1605–1682: Thomas Browne[137] 1622–1705: Henry Layton[138] 1702: William Coward[138] 1632–1704: John Locke[139] 1643–1727: Isaac Newton[140] 1676–1748: Pietro Giannone[141] 1751: William Kenrick[142] 1755: Edmund Law[143] 1759: Samuel Bourn[144] 1723–1791: Richard Price[145] 1718–1797: Peter Peckard[146] 1733–1804: Joseph Priestley[147] Francis Blackburne (1765)[148] (1765).​

19th-20th century:

Others include: Millerites (from 1833),[154] Edward White (1846),[155] Christadelphians (from 1848),[156] Thomas Thayer (1855),[157] François Gaussen (d.1863),[158] Henry Constable (1873),[159] Louis Burnier (Waldensian, d.1878),[160] the Baptist Conditionalist Association (1878),[161] Cameron Mann (1888),[162] Emmanuel Pétavel-Olliff (1891), Miles Grant (1895)[163] George Gabriel Stokes (1897),[155]​

The Blackwell Encyclopedia of Modern Christian Thought (1995), says "There is no concept of an immortal soul in the Old Testament, nor does the New Testament ever call the human soul immortal.",[190] Harper's Bible Dictionary (1st ed. 1985), says that 'For a Hebrew, ‘soul’ indicated the unity of a human person; Hebrews were living bodies, they did not have bodies",[191] the New Bible Dictionary’ (3rd. ed. 1996), says "But to the Bible man is not a soul in a body but a body/soul unity",[192] the Encyclopedia of Judaism’ (2000), says "Scripture does not present even a rudimentarily developed theology of the soul",[193] the New Dictionary of Theology’ (2000), and "The notion of the soul as an independent force that animates human life but that can exist apart from the human body—either prior to conception and birth or subsequent to life and death—is the product only of later Judaism",[188] Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible (2000), says "Far from referring simply to one aspect of a person, “soul” refers to the whole person",[194] the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says "Possibly Jn. 6:33 also includes an allusion to the general life-giving function. This teaching rules out all ideas of an emanation of the soul.",[195] and "The soul and the body belong together, so that without either the one or the other there is no true man",[196] Eerdmans Bible Dictionary (1987), says "Indeed, the salvation of the “immortal soul” has sometimes been a commonplace in preaching, but it is fundamentally unbiblical.",[197] the Encyclopedia of Christianity (2003), says "The Hebrew Bible does not present the human soul (nepeš) or spirit (rûah) as an immortal substance, and for the most part it envisions the dead as ghosts in Sheol, the dark, sleepy underworld",[198] The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (2005), says "there is practically no specific teaching on the subject in the Bible beyond an underlying assumption of some form of afterlife (see immortality)",[199] and the Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible (rev. ed. 2009), says "It is this essential soul-body oneness that provides the uniqueness of the biblical concept of the resurrection of the body as distinguished from the Greek idea of the immortality of the soul".[200][201]
The mortalist disbelief in the existence of a naturally immortal soul,[1][5] is also affirmed as biblical teaching by various modern theologians,[202][203][204][205][206][207][208][209][210]- Christian mortalism

Anabaptist (generally and anciently) and later Mennonite (some):

Paulsen, for instance, says,

"The imagery of the soul's sleep expresses the nature of the interim state of the soul; the idea that the soul sleeps is substantiated by those who have been roused from the dead, inasmuch as the awakened ones can give no information about death, as would be the case if they had remained fully conscious." - The Mennonite Encyclopedia: A Comprehensive Reference Work on the Anabaptist-Mennonite Movement, Volume 4 - Link

"... [Anabaptists] taught the sleep of the soul in death and eternal life only in Christ received at the resurrection. This inevitably developed into tension with the established churches, which in turn resulted in prohibition of the Anabaptist assemblies." - Martin Luther's Views on Conditionalism and Soul Sleep​

Seventh-day Anabaptists:

"[Doctrine held generally] Soul Sleep (conditional immortality of the soul)." - Seventh Day Anabaptists: Doctrines of the Anabaptists influence continue in the heart of bible believing Christians​

"Nearly all of them [Anabaptists] taught both soul-sleep and the final annihilation of the wicked" - The Anabaptists and their Stepchildren - F.N. Lee | Reformed Theology at Semper Reformanda
​

John Calvin (who wrote against in his Psychopannychia (1534), which is where most Calvinist Baptist get the idea of immediate hell/heaven reward), Friedrich Spanheim & Karl Muller wrote about the Anabaptists, and documented their beliefs:

"Calvin, in his Psychopannychia (1544), counts the Anabaptists as one of the groups believing in the sleep of the soul ... Also Friedrich Spannheim asserts that the Mennonites held the belief in the sleep of the soul ... Karl Müller, the church historian of Tübingen, thought the doctrine was definitely held by the Anabaptists in the Romance countries"​

no apostles no church no new covenant no salvation! Simple as that

 

[theefaith]

SDA no wonder I always sense a dark controlling spirt? Doctrine of demons no doubt!

 

[BreadOfLife]

As far as the OP - Mary is Theotokos - but the scripture that "Joseph and Mary had no relations until after Jesus was born" makes me lean toward believing that they did AFTER Jesus was born.

"Nobody got into the guacamole dip until DancesWithGnostics got to the party"

A logical inference is that people started eating guacamole dip after DancesWithGnostics got to the party.

I try to look at what scripture says, and not go beyond it.

But I am not dogmatic about it - I am aware it is important to Catholic and Orthodox brothers and sisters - about a perpetual virginity; I just see nothing about it in the Bible.

You seem to be a fair-minded person, so I'll give you the following Scriptural evidence about the use term "until" . . .

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us:
Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Moses was buried by God in the valley of Moab after his death. Deut. 34:6 explicitly states:
And he buried him in the valley of the land of Moab over against Phogor: and no man hath known of his sepulchre UNTIL this present day.
Sooooo – did they find his grave after this??

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44):
For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool."'
Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool? The problem here is the attempt to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago.

The word, "Until" doesn't always determine a subsequent action or consequence. This is true for BOTH the Hebrew word, 'ad and the Greek term, heos. Matt. 1:25 simply states:
"...but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

It's sort of like the Biblical term "Firstborn". This word does NOT imply that a woman has other children.
In Jewish culture - it simply meant that this child opened the womb of the mother.